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I agree. CC in 40k should be weight of attacks. That IS after all why the mechanics changed. Chargers MUST react, everyone that could attack at the start gets to even if pulled out of base before their initiative and ld modifiers are based on how much you lose the combat by.

Sounds to me like CC was shifted FROM durability and multi-assaults TO weight of attacks and kicking ass through numbers.

That is where 'nids are hurting right now. They have quality but not quantity and that doesn't cut it in 5th.

Thanx Fateweaver I was waiting for an avalanche of -NO! 40K is awesome no matter what stuff....unless you really work for Tzeench (Fateweaver) and are trying to manipulate me...hmmm- I will be watching you sir...

They have quality but not quantity and that doesn't cut it in 5th.

I sort of agree. Tyranids have units that would be good if they cost quite a lot less. No Retreat is crippling at the moment because we can't get enough attacks to kill stuff and offset the fact that Gaunts are really easy to kill. Simple points drops will largely fix that issue. The rumored WoN addition to "normal" Gaunts will be a huge help, too, and will make assault units barging into a big brood and dealing them 10 No Retreat wounds not quite as terrible.

Oh I'm not bashing on 40k cc rules. I like them the most so far. It's just that people (and I don't think it's gw's fault as so far every codex has units that can lay out sick amounts of cc attacks (blood claws/gh, ork boyz, daemonettes, vanguard)) think that cc is won through resilience and saves and complain when less resilient units with more attacks don't do so hot.

I think people who don't play 'nids (or do) are afraid that 'nids supposedly being the penultimate cc army will get TOO powerful regarding cc. Hormogaunts should be as badass as orks in cc (and don't say orks aren't, 120 attacks on the charge is scary and something I have faced (and please lets not get into loads of mathhammer)).

The shooty gaunt by default should have base 2 attacks. Certain nid units that need help are Raveners and Warriors. Ravs get a sick amount of attacks with good WS and Ini to back them up but suffer from no grenades in a game that is rife with grenades available and cover being used so much more than 4th.

So, I'm not so blind as to not see that 'nids badly need a new codex and I really hope that cc gets a huge boost and shooting gets a nerf. I'd rather gain another 2 or 3 attacks on my Tyrant in assault if it means losing some shooting ability, same goes for Ravs. I never pay for the shooting bio's on Ravs as they NEED to fleet to make it into cc to survive. Even if I'm too far away to assault I'll still fleet them to hope for cover, spread them out more or just use them as a screen for my stealers that cannot be ignored.

I see. So instead of H2H being about having a large number of attacks and good numbers of units (you know- like combat)- it is about how much damage you can withstand and how many people you are willing to fight at once? okay- thanks for agreeing with me.

4ed assault rules were not that great. Sorry, I don't agree with you. Clipping and outnumbering were silly mechanics. Now the units that can dish damage and take it win combats. Not the silly ass "reach only one guy in combat and wipe the killzone" or "you killed 10 and I only killed 1 but my guys don't care cause they outnumber your guys". It was dumb in my opinion. Made weaker (and less costly) units stronger then they should be and made some units nigh unbeatable if played right. Unfortunately Tyranids lived and died by those mechanics more then any other army and were also priced based on them. So yeah 5ed may have ruined Tyranids as an assault army, but doesn't mean H2H as a whole was ruined. At least in my opinion.

Your beef seems less about 5ed mechanics and more about Tyranids in 5ed and in that I can agree. It is why, as a fellow Tyranid player I am looking forward to the new dex.

winterman wrote:4ed assault rules were not that great. Sorry, I don't agree with you. Clipping and outnumbering were silly mechanics. Now the units that can dish damage and take it win combats. Not the silly ass "reach only one guy in combat and wipe the killzone" or "you killed 10 and I only killed 1 but my guys don't care cause they outnumber your guys". It was dumb in my opinion. Made weaker (and less costly) units stronger then they should be and made some units nigh unbeatable if played right. Unfortunately Tyranids lived and died by those mechanics more then any other army and were also priced based on them. So yeah 5ed may have ruined Tyranids as an assault army, but doesn't mean H2H as a whole was ruined. At least in my opinion.

Your beef seems less about 5ed mechanics and more about Tyranids in 5ed and in that I can agree. It is why, as a fellow Tyranid player I am looking forward to the new dex.

This is possibly one of the most accurate and eloquent posts regarding the current state of Tyranids I have ever seen on the internet.

I am lookin forwars to the new dex too- at least in theory- the godzilla army for Tyranids was the biggest failure I have seen GW commit. Most of my FLGS and I gave up on 5th- and play fantasy now. But believe me that isn't the only thing wrong with the 5th ed. One thing I do notice is the tons of people talking on these forums about how this H2H unit and that H2H unit suck now- to me- if all these people are saying their CC units are not good anymore- logicaly it could be the CC rules. and yes 4th wasn't all that great but- deployment and template, and a very short list of rules aside- there isn't anything new or good about 5th ed. Tanks are tougher- yeaaaa! so that GW can sell more Landraiders- goodie- killpoints? the"true line of sight" that gives everyone a 4+ save most of the time, characters auto joining units? everyone has fleet sorta? and on and on...How is outnumbering a bad mechanic? I think maybe we should make a thread about- do people know what mechanics should apply to CC? I know this game is sliding more and more away from resembeling what is would be like if the game were real, but, yeah if I charge you with 30 gaunts, orks whatever- and you have ten non fearless troops there should be an advantage for the gaunts if they are fighting just foot troops- not the gaunts get double killed cause they are fearless? Huh? The reward for charging a unit and smashing it in CC is next turn you get to be shot at if you don't do "the dual charge" that everyone harps about. How is that suppossed to be realistic? CC should be about- initiative, weapon skill, numbers, and what weapons the unit has. Maybe you can factor in movement speed as one- but that is just overall good for any model-CC or shooty, whatever the case. This is of course my opinion and if everyone disagrees- that is fine that is what opnions are all about- I have played Tyranids ( have played other armies as well though) religiously since 2nd ed. -not a weekend player or just tourney player- played them at least two sometimes three times a week for years and years and they were good times- perhaps they were a bit much in third editon- but this new way of combat seems counter intuitive to me- I will reserve the final Tyranid judgement till we get the new codex in few weeks(preview anyway)...but I really don't see how they would fix the units in the army- but then I am not a writer for GW-ha. So here is their chance to prove me wrong- and we will see what they come up with but to me there has been very little good rules wise to come out since Chambers left. either way I really want to see the models that they come up with- hope they aren't really making carnifexes in broods now and hope that the Trygon isn't in the new dex- I have one it is great model but I think it is going to a level that we don't really need to move towards. Sorry I know this seems like two almost seperate posts -but I think I may have steered this topic off a bit and was trying to fix it a little- ha.

The new bug looks like a kit bash fail. I was hoping for something new and unique. Really hoping this is plastic so I can convert it to look different.

I would not be surprised if the Trygon is in the codex since it would be the new hot buy me model like Valkyries were for Imperial Guard. It would also sell Raveners because you would want Raveners to come out of its hole so from a sale standpoint Trygon in the codex = win for GW.

yeah but at the same time the armies keep getting bigger($ of course) and now the actual models are getting bigger and bigger- we are going to run out of room on the tables- haha it can already be a pain to set aside room for the terrain, dice, tape measurer, templates, ect..haha- The Trygon model is the only cool biotitan though so maybe it will fit in- The others look very stupi- IMO.

Taken off Warseer. None of these have been shot down by anyone in the know (and I do realize they are still rumors so take with a pinch of salt as usual). Brimstone has more or less confirmed on seeing pics of gargs and ravs this month.

Some new rumor bits from this morning:

Tyrants:
Tyrants definitely have expanded psychic powers.
Increases to stat line on tyrant. +A +I
Tyrant gets 5+ invul default
Regen upgrade option as Fex (points expensive)
Lash whip can "target" a model in unit in CC (must mean other changes to LW)

Another rumor reinforcing a change to nids "rending" reverting rending back to 4ed for nids

Another confirmation of WoN availability on all Gaunt species...inc gargoyles

sprue pics for ravs and gargoyles should have visibility on web by nov 27.

Black boxes in stores by mid-Dec.

Box art online for Rav and Garg boxes before Dec.

"Surprise" mini planned, blister pack.

biomorph/weapons Sprue available separately direct only late Jan.

gargoyle weapon options include a cc build.

Nid PS Terrain set planned for mid to late 2010 (also rumor of Eldar Webway gate terrain set, but that's another thread)

Trygon/ravener "burrow" ability, go back underground, re-DS elsewhere on table....sounds like Necron Lord teleport ability. First I've heard of this, so this will need to be vetted.

Fex "nerf" will "make sense" is not related to Nid-zilla. players will still want to have many fex's

stealer "nerf" is just rumor. stealer FOC changes are re-confirmed. BL does more to stealers than just FOC change options.

Crushing Claws = dreadnaught CCW + new nid ability.

"Nid Surge" ability. Army wide. Extra move. (Ork Waagh? Name is not "nid surge")

Pravane like psychic ability...move enemy unit

Possession ability...control enemy unit

Shielding ability...protect unit

That just seems like a small list of apparently but not really credible wish-listing with a raft of other silly unsubstantiated things attached to it. I don't see rending going back without a drastic change in GW policy, and again, Genestealers changing force org position puts a major damage source for the army in direct competition with the synapse required to make the army playable and thus would be a silly, baseless decision.

Apparently it comes from a credible source and not even Brim has piped up to debunk any of them. Not saying he isn't hiding something from us but normally he will pipe up in his cryptic sort of way and let us know a little of what he knows.

I don't see them being any wilder than what has already been previously posted.

The rending thing seems pretty incredible, especially with recent rumors of 8 point base Genestealers and rending Gargoyles. There wouldn't be much point in taking anything else. Other than that, they seem reasonable. I'm holding out hope that Carnifexes don't get busted down to T5, though. That wouldn't make any sense at all. Given how huge and armored the model is, T6 even seems a bit low.

There's been plenty of absolute bunk posted by people just throwing wish-listing out all over the web when for the most part we can't even get reliable information from GW.

Howard A Treesong wrote:"Toxathrope" is just embarassing. It sounds like a monster from some 90s cartoon like Teenage Turtles or Captain Planet.

Yeah, but I don't think nids name themselves, at least not in vibrations humans can understand. Aren't the names of the xenos, in many cases, names that imperium have given them, either officially or slang? Kinda like the eldar calling the imperium monkeighs.

All in all, I will concede a SW admiral akbar, mon "calamari", moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a rumor I heard recently from someone in the flesh that claims to be in the know...genestealers will no longer be troops. I hope not.

I really like the 5+ Invulnerable save for Tyrants. does this mean the Zoanthrope save is increased?

I believe it's Venomthrope anyway.

Lash whip can "target" a model in unit in CC (must mean other changes to LW)

so you can snipe powerfists etc then ? That's a big boost. Also might go someway to explaining the hows and whys of Lukas the Trickster's cloak as well.

Some of this stuff sounds reasonable and fun. Some of it sounds extremely fishy. Extra moves for the whole army? More 'move enemy unit' controversy? Old rending? I really hope not.

Fateweaver wrote:Crushing Claws = dreadnaught CCW + new nid ability.

If this rumour is true(which I doubt), this leads me to think that the Fex Nerf is lower strength, as at the current S9 and being a MC, a DCCW makes no sense for one.

Its kinda weird....but cool!

Crushing Claws = dreadnaught CCW + new nid ability.


If this rumour is true(which I doubt), this leads me to think that the Fex Nerf is lower strength, as at the current S9 and being a MC, a DCCW makes no sense for one.

I do think the carnifex is going to get like str 8 maybe 7 but that would be shameful.
Also the hive tyrant really should have access to the most biomorphs you know because he is the leader.

Weird but cool!

I this 5th edition fixed a lot of things. I do not really have TOO many complaints any more. just don't really have time to play.

Has anyone heard anything about spore mines? Will they stay in the game? New mine types? Etc

spore mines are a joke

Remember DCCW is 2xS like a normal powefist but hit in normal initiative, ie Dreads drop back down to S-6 once they lose the DCCW S-12 but stats cap at 10 so S-10

+2D6 for armour penetration. It sounds viable...now we just need a way to make sure we hit those damned vehicles. I honestly think it's going to be done through bioplasma. Make it more expensive, but all cc attacks hit on 3+ or something to that effect.

How does a dread close combat weapon do ANYTHING for a Carnifex? There has to be more to it than that.

If it goes down in strength, a DCCW would pump it back up to Str 10, while not hurting it's Initiative. I'm sure it would probably also have the added bonus of sending GWAR! into some kind of seizure.

The Carnifex doesn't need to a strength nerf, and an initiative of 2, after paying for an upgrade, isn't good enough to justify "keeping your initiative" as a selling point for a dreadnought close combat weapon. As it is, a S10(after arbitrarily being nerfed to strength 9 to justify making toxin sacs an upgrade on him) Carnifex that ignores armor saves as a monstrous creature and an already pathetic I score gains nothing by being nerfed and then having a dreadnought close combat weapon tacked on.

Which is why that is exactly what's going to happen, and we'll have to pay points for that, too.