Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

CC might also be available now for Tyrant, the rumored Hive Guard and maybe even Warriors (look funny though them huge claws on such a small model).

So if the Tyrant can take them we know it'll help him as Tyrant is definately not going to ever be S8 or 9 or 10 without help, same goes for the Hive Guard.

Looks pretty cool.

Looks like it just ate a squid.

Railguns wrote:The Carnifex doesn't need to a strength nerf, and an initiative of 2, after paying for an upgrade, isn't good enough to justify "keeping your initiative" as a selling point for a dreadnought close combat weapon. As it is, a S10(after arbitrarily being nerfed to strength 9 to justify making toxin sacs an upgrade on him) Carnifex that ignores armor saves as a monstrous creature and an already pathetic I score gains nothing by being nerfed and then having a dreadnought close combat weapon tacked on.

Which is why that is exactly what's going to happen, and we'll have to pay points for that, too.

I disagree about the lack of justification. Tyranids currently work far better as a shooty army than a close combat army and that's just wrong (IMHO). Considering all the changes that 5th bought (close combat resolution, lack of consolidation into fresh units, increased tank survivability, huge melta load outs to name but a few) the nids are in serious need of an overhaul. By reducing the base S of monstrous creatures they are pushing us to use close combat builds, since tankbusting at range will (and rightly so IMO) be a challenge. currently we have are stuck between a rock and a hard place...venom cannons that can glance or cc where we suck even worse. I'm looking at this release as an opportunity to let nids inflict some serious close combat damage, while fixing a few elements of shooting.

Lukus83 wrote:

Railguns wrote:The Carnifex doesn't need to a strength nerf, and an initiative of 2, after paying for an upgrade, isn't good enough to justify "keeping your initiative" as a selling point for a dreadnought close combat weapon. As it is, a S10(after arbitrarily being nerfed to strength 9 to justify making toxin sacs an upgrade on him) Carnifex that ignores armor saves as a monstrous creature and an already pathetic I score gains nothing by being nerfed and then having a dreadnought close combat weapon tacked on.

Which is why that is exactly what's going to happen, and we'll have to pay points for that, too.

I disagree about the lack of justification. Tyranids currently work far better as a shooty army than a close combat army and that's just wrong (IMHO). Considering all the changes that 5th bought (close combat resolution, lack of consolidation into fresh units, increased tank survivability, huge melta load outs to name but a few) the nids are in serious need of an overhaul. By reducing the base S of monstrous creatures they are pushing us to use close combat builds, since tankbusting at range will (and rightly so IMO) be a challenge. currently we have are stuck between a rock and a hard place...venom cannons that can glance or cc where we suck even worse. I'm looking at this release as an opportunity to let nids inflict some serious close combat damage, while fixing a few elements of shooting.

or they'll just gimmick the army with tons of free WON and overpowered garbage and it will still only be an army that appeals to "those guys".

Just got off BOLS but heres some new stuff,
2nd Trygon Variant: Mawloc
"The Mawloc is a Trygon variant with a distending mouth (like the Red Terror) and lots of funny spines all over it."

Hive Guard
"... the Hive Guard look awesome, surely a model everyone will want to have, but imo is also going to be a new "Zoa" in terms of its tippy-ness. It's a tall bit of metal. Those others who have seen can confirm.For me, i'm thinking weighted bases may be in my future."

Carnifex Stats
To support more Fex' in the army an overall reduction in stats should take place, however, increases elsewhere compensate (not sure if they mean in weapons or in the statline)

Biomorphs and Weapons
Crushing Claws are huge "can openers"...+1A, double s (10Max), ignore as, add d6 pen, d3 "wounds"/"vehicle hits" (too good to be true, IMO). The rumors around CC are running rampant. There is no doubt their effectiveness will be improved in the new codex. Models equipped will get a strength boon and the additional glance or wound on hit, so you can say these will be can-openers. I also heard the rumor that the nid ability that has been mentioned prior with CC is they can latch onto vehicles and prevent movement away from combat at the expense of their bonus attacks.

Talons +1A, "pinning"?

Envenomed claws, upgrade to CC symbiotes, wound on 3+

Rending Claws, autowound on 6 on hit, more expensive

Spinefists, fire and run (is this the rumor "subconcious weapon" we heard before?)

Barbed Strangler, large blast, entangle...unit next move as difficult terrain (Again, I thought this was a rumor elsewhere, too)

Bone sword, pretty much the same

Lashwhip, remove X attacks from attacking unit (allocate as wounds), can target individual, but then only affects single model. no min 1A. no longer base contact constrained. (a lot here and it seems complex, so I highly doubt all (or any) this is true, but I have no way to separate wheat from chaff)

Surprise Assault. (I'm not sure where this fits, if its an ability, a psychic thing, a army rule, a deployment rule, etc. If I were guessing I'd think it's lictor or Scuttlers related.) Unit enters play from reserve anywhere on table. must be 12" from enemy. Cannot assault the turn it enters play. Allowed normal DS "run"

Models
Ravenors (plastic) are 3 models per sprue. @ $29
Gargoyles (plastic) are 10 per box, and armed with fleshborers as the only weapons. @$44

I REALLY hope Surprise Assault isn't the new Lictor rules. Having it spawn at least 12" away seems odd.

Scything Talons with a Pinning addition would be really cool.

About the 'Mawloc'- someone else on BOLS said the distended mouth Trygon is NOT a Mawloc.

Of course, take with pinch of salt, as with all rumours.

A lot of this sound quite weird actually...
Makes me want to see the codex even more


//Edge

I WANNA THE GARGOYLES!!!

I disagree about the lack of justification. Tyranids currently work far better as a shooty army than a close combat army and that's just wrong (IMHO). Considering all the changes that 5th bought (close combat resolution, lack of consolidation into fresh units, increased tank survivability, huge melta load outs to name but a few) the nids are in serious need of an overhaul. By reducing the base S of monstrous creatures they are pushing us to use close combat builds, since tankbusting at range will (and rightly so IMO) be a challenge. currently we have are stuck between a rock and a hard place...venom cannons that can glance or cc where we suck even worse. I'm looking at this release as an opportunity to let nids inflict some serious close combat damage, while fixing a few elements of shooting.

I tend to think there'll be enough antitank shooting...it's just that it won't be so Carnifex-focused anymore. If things play out as rumored (lower S, but VC can pen and CC give additional bonuses), I can see the logic and I don't think it'll be a big deal once the dust settles. Although hopefully you folks have magnetized your Carnifex arms.

It's amazing that the new codex is less than two months away and we're so in the dark about some of the really fundamental things. I guess if Tyranids follow the recent pattern, we might have some new preorder pics in a week or so with more details flooding in around the one month mark...

On maelstromgames:

Tyranid Battleforce
release date:
19/12/09

contents:
3x Tyranid Warriors

8x Tyranid Genestealers

8x Tyranid Termagants

8x Tyranid Hormagaunts

1x Tyranid Carnifex

Same old content. :(

People use shooting carnifexes these days precisely because close combat carnifexes aren't ever going to get to combat with things you want them fighting unless you're opponent has a major screw-up. They don't need nerfed stats, for god sake. They are already base Initiave 1 Weapon Skill 3, and 2 attacks. How can they get worse without lowering their durability? They need more attacks, higher Initiative, Ws4,( at least to represent a creature of such size and strength being able to hit things with sheer mass). A dreadnought close combat weapon literally adds nothing that the Carnifex currently doesn't have. If they nerf the strength to something absurd like 5 or 6 to make the DDCCW desirable, then many of the shooting weapons wouldn't be fieldable at maximum strength, thus making anti-tank shooting WORSE than it is now.

Thats assuming 'nid weapons stay based on strength. Nobody knows for sure that small detail.

Maybe 'Nid weapons will remain based on strength but the modifiers will change.

Let's not knee jerk until we have concrete rumors either way (and so far nothing is concrete).

Wow I know a cool trick to use in Tyranid battleforce.You can convert Warriors to ravenors! lol

Termagant wrote:Wow I know a cool trick to use in Tyranid battleforce.You can convert Warriors to ravenors! lol

Of course. That's my intention. I have 6 warriors waiting to see new rules

just want to point out, that the GW website list for nids has changed. you can no longer buy gaunts box ( :O ) which indicates the a split up of the sets :(
also, the tyranid special chars have been put back in, indicating theyll be in the new codex old one eye, red terror and death leaper will be in new codex is my guess.

I remember the first two, ghosty (Carnifex & Ravenor variants, respectively), but what was Death Leaper?

I thought that the Deathleaper was just a different looking lictor model that was released with Cities of Death?

He had some additional special rules, the only one of which I remember was a 12" charge range, from Leaping.

Railguns wrote:People use shooting carnifexes these days precisely because close combat carnifexes aren't ever going to get to combat with things you want them fighting unless you're opponent has a major screw-up. They don't need nerfed stats, for god sake. They are already base Initiave 1 Weapon Skill 3, and 2 attacks for god's sake. How can they get worse without lowering their durability? They need more attacks, higher Initiative, Ws4,( at least to represent a creature of such size and strength being able to hit things with sheer mass). A dreadnought close combat weapon literally adds nothing that the Carnifex currently doesn't have. If they nerf the strength to something absurd like 5 or 6 to make the DDCCW desirable, then many of the shooting weapons wouldn't be fieldable at maximum strength, thus making anti-tank shooting WORSE than it is now.

S should be nerfed to S7. If venom cannons remain the same with the +2 S and you tack on toxin sacs you get your S10. I'm just trying to point out that if they give fexes fleet and improve their close combat effectiveness (scything talons give you +2A, bioplasma allows all cc attacks to always hit on 3+ etc...) you get a whole new and improved way of dealing with vehicles. Of course this is just what I would like to see, may not turn out like this...

If that were the case, then close combat carnifexes would be even weaker, and require points spent on upgrades to bring it back up to where it is now AT SHOOTING, which is what we are trying to focus away from(it isn't particularly good at that to start with) and even weaker at close combat unless you spend both of your "hardpoints" on scything talons and the DCCW. There isn't any reason to do that. There would be no actual change in the form or function of the Carnifex, and it would continue to suffer from the same problems then as now.

Carnifexes need fleet, or perhaps just make monstrous creatures faster to compensate for longer stride or something. The poor thing already has to waddle across the board at infantry speed to get anywhere, while every other army can start the high strength, armor ignoring killing from turn 1 with their heavy weapons.

I don't see it that way. By giving them fleet and a bunch of improved biomorphs (not saying that it's definately going to happen) and perhaps even an invulnerable save they should be real cc powerhouses.

It's not easy for me to explain in words what I'm imagining so I will give you a basic statline

WS - 4
BS - 2
S - 7
T - 7
W - 4
I - 2
A - 3
LD - 10

Special rules: fleet, fearless

By using up your hardpoint slots on cc (counting scything talons as +2 attacks each) you get a real nasty tank hunter since that would be a potential 8 attacks on the charge. Throw in what I said about bioplasma making all hits hit on 4's or 3's and you can even hit with more than 1. If you want guns go for it, but if you are expecting a nice S10 VC that can penetrate just be prepared to pay the points for it.

Bear in mind this is just a personal opinion about how I expect it to go down. If it's not done right they may just kill off carnifexes (in my lists at least).

Carnis need Fleet already.

Plastic Gargoyles, I never thought I would see the day.

What i was wondering if giving all this up dates to this armys, theres a few out there that need a update very badly. dark eldar, and nercons. Im not a big fan of nercons but thats a different story. People know that ,that army needs a update when they dont even look like a codex comparied to all the rest of the codex. Not even having that blue outline on the codex.

Tacobake wrote:Carnis need Fleet already.

Actually, they should give Blizzard a taste of their own medicine and put overlords in 40k. Then you could just drop the carnis on your opponents.

captain.gordino wrote:

Tacobake wrote:Carnis need Fleet already.

Actually, they should give Blizzard a taste of their own medicine and put overlords in 40k. Then you could just drop the carnis on your opponents.

Haha! That would be the day!

//Edge

A dread CCW on a 'fex whilst not impossible sounds odd to me, I would suggest it far more likely that we might see 'fex S drop a fair bit but things like crushing claws acting akin to powerfists for example. This would perhaps also help explain earlier rumours about being able to take multiple sets of crushing claws maybe ?

Hey. Not sure if this is old news or guess work. Maelstrom games has the new dex on as coming out on 09/01/10.

ghosty wrote:just want to point out, that the GW website list for nids has changed. you can no longer buy gaunts box ( :O ) which indicates the a split up of the sets :(
also, the tyranid special chars have been put back in, indicating theyll be in the new codex old one eye, red terror and death leaper will be in new codex is my guess.

They were already on the site in the collector's section, but now the Red Terror is in Fast Attack and Old One Eye is in Heavy Support. Good eye there!

Just keep an eye out on a few GW suppliers

As said, maelstrmo has the release dates on the dex, chances are they will put up dates on other things sooner or later

Since we are wishlisting.

I would like to see Carnifex getting the ability to DS as SM Drop Pod. (Mycetic Spore)

For a cost of course.

If you are able to actually get a CC Carni into CC, then it is worth quite a bit.