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iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.

I was referring to Jedi's
Marines can only make a planet disappear...

They can't. Malcador the Sigilitte, the most powerful human psyker after the Emperor could enact a costly spell to temporarily place Titan in the Warp. The Grey Knights do not know how the Warp Nexus works, and they can't fully operate it.

they don't know how to get it working completely, but it doesn't mean they won't ever.

its possable they will find the right combination eventually.

You can't base a comparison between two military force on 'ifs' and 'maybes'.

yeah we can.

its pointless, but the entire argument, and point of this thread, is pointless anyway so it doesn't matter.

If you practice suspension of disbelief like I do, it does matter.

It's like comparing the US and the Soviet militaries and then saying that we have to consider the fact that maybe every single US nuclear missile blows up when they press the launch button. Sure, I guess it's possible, but it's not something that can be counted on to be reliable.

How is a missile exploding on launch anything like this?

Grey Templar wrote:How is a missile exploding on launch anything like this?

It's saying that there is a slight possibility something might happen. There is a tiny chance that all of one saides missiles will blow up on launch, and there is a tiny chance that the Grey Knights will be able to use their psychic powers to do something that Malcador did.

Either way, the probability is slight enough that you can't base a comparison of forces on something with such a small probability happening.

I get that there are 12 pages so this has probably already been brought up, but;

Mass Reactive Shells > Light sabre

Mass Reactive Shells > Jedi

Space Marine reflexes & autosenses + Bolt weaponary > Jedi-Fu

Space Marine ATSKNF (Mental Discipline/training) > Any & All Jedi mind tricks.

Space Marine Armour > Jedi fireworks.

Hands down would Jedi beat a lot of marines in close combat although I would assume the powerfield of power weapons could equally cross blades with a light sabre, still I presume a Jedi to be more adept than a standard assault marine. Even with that in mind, there are plenty of opponents that beat marines hand's down in close-combat, doesn't stop them shredding them with bolter fire. The light sabre can't deflect mass reactive shells (or it might detonate them but, at least, its still equivalent to buck shot to the face) and their acrobatics only work so well against rank & file marines as well as their supreme loadout of targeting auspexes and accuracy.

And the elite of the Astartes, Assault Terminator; would rip the elite of Jedi (More Jedi?) to shreds. My point being that Jedi don't scale either (not including special characters as the point is moot).

A Jedi might also deal what he thinks is a fatal blow to a Marine and then gets a chainsword up his in return.

stab a marine through the heart, suprise!!, he's got 2 and will survive the internal burns long enough to crush the Jedi's neck. the marine could even survive completely.

ChrisWWII wrote:If you practice suspension of disbelief like I do, it does matter.

It's like comparing the US and the Soviet militaries and then saying that we have to consider the fact that maybe every single US nuclear missile blows up when they press the launch button. Sure, I guess it's possible, but it's not something that can be counted on to be reliable.

I am sorry but I just am not making sense of this....and I don't think you can parallel this to a thread about two fictitious group of soldiers having a hypothetical battle.

It's not the specific example of the US vs the Soviets. He's talking about how certain things in the thread rely on possibilities like the the missiles blowing up, it's not likely to happen.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
I've also never heard of a marine doing anything close to moving a planet.

I was referring to Jedi's
Marines can only make a planet disappear...

Imperial Armour 10 has the Red Scorpions gut a nearby sun and use the "stellar core" to throw it at one of Huron's space stations. Ignoring the general and all-to-usual Forgeworld- of throwing suns at (planetary-defense)-space stations (who they hell checks the drivel they write?), if Marines can move a sun, they can move a planet.

Oh, and the reason given for why they did it in IA10 was that proper battleships and the like was in short supply and fighting Tyranids elsewhere. So presumably, hauling stars around is a second-best, duct-tape-MacGyver solutions for Marines when propa' weapons are not to be had.

Razerous wrote:I get that there are 12 pages so this has probably already been brought up, but;

Mass Reactive Shells > Light sabre

Mass Reactive Shells > Jedi

Space Marine reflexes & autosenses + Bolt weaponary > Jedi-Fu

Space Marine ATSKNF (Mental Discipline/training) > Any & All Jedi mind tricks.

Space Marine Armour > Jedi fireworks.

(i didn't quote your post Razerous to single you out, just to reference what i'm talking about.)

IIRC The Jedi have been around for about 20,000 years.

I feel like someone has already tried out Mass Reactive Shells, Bolt(like) Weaponry, and power armor against them, and it didn't work. Otherwise people in the star wars universe would just use explosive rounds to kill jedi instead of lasers.

If this has already been brought up, sorry. I stopped reading at like page 5.

I think Star Wars has by and large dispensed with solid state weapons for firearms. even bowcasters are energy based. i have the feeling that weapons like that haven't been used in Star Wars for untold thousands of years.


Bolt shells would be something new and jedi would likely parry them like any other weapon they are familiar with. and then the bolt shell would explode on contact with the lightsabre.

good point, it never occurred to me that a civilization could forget solid weapons. Weird.

yeah, it would actually be quite easy.

Solid weapons require an explosive propellent, but then someone invented energy weapons which are far easier to reload and recharge. people ditched the solid slug weapons for the simpler to use and rechargeenergy weapons.

eventually, they completely forget how to create these weapons. explosives live on only as grenades and bombs.


then Space Marines come in with exploding solid slugs. these weapons have horrendous effects on bodies which their medical technology and body armor isn't used to dealing with(Laser burns being the norm)

hmm, i wonder how Jedi counter Tusken Raiders. IIRC they have rifles that fire slugs.

All i have seen suggests their rifles are blaster based too. they mostly steal things from settlers so they would have access to blaster parts.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower


I just feel like Jedi would have found a counter to ballistic weapons in their 20,000 some odd years of existence.

That particular article says this -

For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.

the fact they aren't used except by "primative" cultures suggests they don't encounter them often.

and even then, exploding shells are quite dangerous(especially if you arn't expecting it)

iproxtaco wrote:That particular article says this -

For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.

Nice, didn't read that far. Then i guess Jedi are screwed.

Except the blade of a lightsabre doesn't have enough mass to trigger the core of a bolter shell... the blade has the mass of light. This is one of the many reasons it requires the Force to wield effectively (that is, not cut your own leg off).

The bolter round is mass-reactive, not a shell that explodes on contact. Deflecting it does not cause the round to explode. You can also stop them with telekinetic powers. Patience Kys, only a delta-grade, possibly kappa-grade, psyker, stops a near-point-blank bolter round with her mind. Sure, it drains her of pretty much all the mental strength she had... but skilled Jedi are very much above the delta-grade level of psychic ability. They're no alpha-plus like Ravenor, of course, but psychic ability increases exponentially with each grade. A beta-grade psyker can mind-slave hundreds, if not thousands, of people at a time. A beta-grade telekine could probably drop a Leman Russ on your head.

^^^^^^^^ interesting

Bolt shells detonate on impact with matter, it is true, but they can also be lit off by heat. a Lightsabre is a bunch of energy. it will set off the charge no problem.

Grey Templar wrote:Bolt shells detonate on impact with matter, it is true, but they can also be lit off by heat. a Lightsabre is a bunch of energy. it will set off the charge no problem.

So my theory was true, the bolt shell will explode the moment it touches lightsaber.
In that case Jedi are screwed since the debris will get to him for sure...

Brother Coa wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Bolt shells detonate on impact with matter, it is true, but they can also be lit off by heat. a Lightsabre is a bunch of energy. it will set off the charge no problem.

So my theory was true, the bolt shell will explode the moment it touches lightsaber.
In that case Jedi are screwed since the debris will get to him for sure...

You forget that Jedi's can wear Mandalorian armour .

Bolters do not detonate on impact, the whole point is that they penetrate the target first. A Lightsaber, with no mass, would burn through them.

I find this thread entertaining due to the fact that the discussion is over two imaginative creations fighting each other.

-J.

Psienesis wrote:Except the blade of a lightsabre doesn't have enough mass to trigger the core of a bolter shell... the blade has the mass of light. This is one of the many reasons it requires the Force to wield effectively (that is, not cut your own leg off).

The bolter round is mass-reactive, not a shell that explodes on contact. Deflecting it does not cause the round to explode. You can also stop them with telekinetic powers. Patience Kys, only a delta-grade, possibly kappa-grade, psyker, stops a near-point-blank bolter round with her mind. Sure, it drains her of pretty much all the mental strength she had... but skilled Jedi are very much above the delta-grade level of psychic ability. They're no alpha-plus like Ravenor, of course, but psychic ability increases exponentially with each grade. A beta-grade psyker can mind-slave hundreds, if not thousands, of people at a time. A beta-grade telekine could probably drop a Leman Russ on your head.

Actually it is energy in the form of plasma. Light would not be able to be controlled to make a blade, it would extend forever. The force is not limited to just deflecting projectiles with light sabers. Ever see the short animated video of Mace Windu, where he basically destroys a whole droid army with out his light saber? This is all clone wars canon approved by Lucas, so it is an actual representation of Jedi power.





Again, Space Marines would not have that easy of a time taking out Jedi.

wow Crom, I was about to post this exact vid! We had this discussion at my FLGS and someone suggested i post this vid...great minds think alike!