New rumours on Chaos Legions (latest on pages 30, 32 and 34; compilation in first post)

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**Just Dave**

Vaktathi wrote:*Gav Thorpe Log*

The design ethos may have been flawed, but from a designers and balance perspective, A LOT of what Gav says there is very reasonable IMHO.

**Vaktathi**

Just Dave wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:*Gav Thorpe Log*

The design ethos may have been flawed, but from a designers and balance perspective, A LOT of what Gav says there is very reasonable IMHO.

Right, and I get where they were going with it, they just happened to pull it on the book such a change would be more noticeable on than any other by a long shot, and then of course everything 180*'d not much later, leaving what *was* the most varied and detailed army out there as one of the least detailed and varied in the game.

Had there been something other than just the DA book preceding CSM's in that design philosophy change and a more established lineage of such books, the current book probably wouldn't be seen the way it is now. As is, with C:CSM and C: DA (a relatively limited book in the first place so doesn't get too noticed in that regard) along with maybe Daemons being the only exemplars of this design philosophy, it doesn't sit well, which isn't necessarily Gav and Allesio's fault (though I've never been a fan of Allesio's works, I've liked lots of Gav's stuff) but they did choose probably the worst book to really test it out on.

**aka_mythos**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Manchu wrote:Thanks for posting that, V. Nice bit of history. I especially like the quip about "some non-existent 'fifth power' represented by Chaos Undivided." Losing Malal was definitely not a mistake and giving that tripe any way back in would be. Although, I have to admit, I do like "Chaos Undivided" a lot better than "Chaos Glory." I don't see "Chaos Undivided" as too confusing, as far as an idea like Malal goes.

Chaos Undivided, as a concept, no longer exists. Just look at Black Crusade. You've got things dedicated to the four Gods, and then you have 'unaligned'. It's not even done as a proper noun any more.

"Chaos Undivided" as a concept as you say exists as "unaligned" but it was also intended to represent dedication to other lesser chaos entities in a generic way. The elimination of "Chaos Undivided" is notional, as the different things it used to represent are just being given greater detail and new names... or seemingly that's the rumor.

Also allegiance to all four is stupid.

**ShumaGorath**

Vaktathi wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:*Gav Thorpe Log*

The design ethos may have been flawed, but from a designers and balance perspective, A LOT of what Gav says there is very reasonable IMHO.
Right, and I get where they were going with it, they just happened to pull it on the book such a change would be more noticeable on than any other by a long shot, and then of course everything 180*'d not much later, leaving what *was* the most varied and detailed army out there as one of the least detailed and varied in the game.

You didn't play tau, necrons, orks, eldar, or tyranids did you?

The chaos inferiority complex is strange.

**Manchu**

@HBMC: Pity, I thought it was strong for brand association.

**Vaktathi**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:*Gav Thorpe Log*

The design ethos may have been flawed, but from a designers and balance perspective, A LOT of what Gav says there is very reasonable IMHO.
Right, and I get where they were going with it, they just happened to pull it on the book such a change would be more noticeable on than any other by a long shot, and then of course everything 180*'d not much later, leaving what *was* the most varied and detailed army out there as one of the least detailed and varied in the game.

You didn't play tau, necrons, orks, eldar, or tyranids did you?

The chaos inferiority complex is strange.

Actually, I have Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids, just not Necrons or Orks.

**ShumaGorath**

Vaktathi wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:*Gav Thorpe Log*

The design ethos may have been flawed, but from a designers and balance perspective, A LOT of what Gav says there is very reasonable IMHO.
Right, and I get where they were going with it, they just happened to pull it on the book such a change would be more noticeable on than any other by a long shot, and then of course everything 180*'d not much later, leaving what *was* the most varied and detailed army out there as one of the least detailed and varied in the game.

You didn't play tau, necrons, orks, eldar, or tyranids did you?

The chaos inferiority complex is strange.
Actually, I have Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids, just not Necrons or Orks.

Then what you consider to be the 'least detailed and varied' codex is a strangely broad field.

**DarkStarSabre**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Then what you consider to be the 'least detailed and varied' codex is a strangely broad field.

Actually to be frank, I myself have Tyranids and Eldar in addition to my Chaos - and to be honest I feel I have a lot more variety and choices in those two armies than Chaos. Admittedly certain Force Org slots are crowded to the point of ridiculous (why hello there Tyranid Elites!) but there really isn't any no-brainer choices in the muddled options I have for those armies. I can see pros and cons for at least 2 or 3 units per slot which is a good thing.

Unlike Chaos where there is some choices for Troops but almost every other slot has blatant no-brainer choices that tend to lead to armies being very....dull and worst of all...identical. Yes, I know this happens with the metagame where unit spam tends to be a valid option but some choice wouldn't be that bad.

**wyomingfox**

Maybe shuma's talking about the 4th edition tyranid codex: where the viable options were Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, Genestealers...possibly Zoes with Psychic Scream spam and warriors with deathspitters.

**aka_mythos**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:Actually, I have Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids, just not Necrons or Orks.

Then what you consider to be the 'least detailed and varied' codex is a strangely broad field.

The chaos codex is limited to a single viable and completely uncharacterful list... choices to playing Chaos are: plague marines or berzerkers... obliterators, or termi-cide, or bikes... and that it the rest of the lists people use and do "ok" with are cookie cutter beyond that.

The biggest failure of the book is that people want to play more specific representations of different chaos forces, than the mix of units the army insists upon. GW seemingly wants to push all Chaos players towards these lists that mix the different powers... but the book promotes armies that don't make sense based on fluff and are devoid of thematic cohesion.

**Vaktathi**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Then what you consider to be the 'least detailed and varied' codex is a strangely broad field.

Note that I said *one* of the least detailed and varied.

**Samus_aran115**

GentlemanGuy wrote:I cant see GW releasing god specific upgrade sprues like they did with DA and BT. I reckon plastic boxsets will come out for them but what i would like are legion specific boxsets you can spread through your army like they've done with SW and BA. Imagine an Iron Warrior boxset with bionic arms and legs or a word bearers boxset ith scrolls and parchment covered shoulder pads. What about an Alpha legion one with scaly shoulder pads and reptilian helmets and small multi headed serpents to use as familiars XD thats what i'd like to see

also about cultists an traitors in a legion army. I reckon all but 3 legions use them. Iron warriors who fight siege and trench warfare would need expendable troops to grind there adversaries before sending the legionarres as shock troops. Word bearers would requirecultists wherever they go. Alot of sacrifices and cannon fodder. The same with the black legion who would need meat shields to grind an opponent down. Even death guard would use cultists which would be just as pox ridden as their overlords

I'd reckon that's about right. I might be persuaded to imagine that the world eaters would use troops to basically throw at the enemy and then use them as blood-feed for the 'cavalry'... And maybe the Death Guard could use them to spread filthy contagions into the enemy before the Death Guard finally assaults.

I'm agreeing with you, but I can see possible use of cultists in just about any legion, given the right incentive and situation.

**Kroothawk**

ghost21 wrote:Okay, time to end the what-ifs:

There will be 3 Chaos dexes as far as I'm aware: Legions, Renegades and Daemons

Now Daemons will appear in the Legion Codex but not those awful lesser things they are now. I'm not sure about greater daemons. However, if you are doing a Legion list, it's based on "Black legion(or the generic list)" or one of the others.

Legions:
Whats there ? Lots!
World Eaters with bolt guns you say? Yeah, they're there.
Expect very powerful characters here (they are 10 Milena old). My favorite is the overpowered red angel: Now he IS angry!

I'll do the others, if people wish.

**nels1031**

Kroothawk wrote:
ghost21 wrote:I'll do the others, if people wish.

Why does he say things like that? Just out with it man!

I'm sure no one wants to know any more details, whatsoever. /sarcasm

**Samus_aran115**

Kroothawk wrote:
ghost21 wrote:Okay, time to end the what-ifs:

There will be 3 Chaos dexes as far as I'm aware: Legions, Renegades and Daemons

Now Daemons will appear in the Legion Codex but not those awful lesser things they are now. I'm not sure about greater daemons. However, if you are doing a Legion list, it's based on "Black legion(or the generic list)" or one of the others.

Legions:
Whats there ? Lots!
World Eaters with bolt guns you say? Yeah, they're there.
Expect very powerful characters here (they are 10 Milena old). My favorite is the overpowered red angel: Now he IS angry!

I'll do the others, if people wish.

Confused about the bolded part.

**timetowaste85**

NELS1031 wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
ghost21 wrote:I'll do the others, if people wish.

Why does he say things like that? Just out with it man!

I'm sure no one wants to know any more details, whatsoever. /sarcasm

Yeah Ghost, we want answers. Hurry up man! Tell me if my Noise Marines get any love-don't tell me what, if you can't, just tell me they get something more (and a 3pt decrease!)

**Raxor**

Kroothawk wrote:
ghost21 wrote:Okay, time to end the what-ifs:

Expect very powerful characters here (they are 10 Milena old). My favorite is the overpowered red angel: Now he IS angry!

Overpowered red angel? Isn't this stepping on BA's toes?

**Samus_aran115**

Angron

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple primarchs are still alive, although I think it would be ridiculous to make them playable. No more ridiculous than Draigo, lol

**Manchu**

NELS1031 wrote:
ghost21 wrote:I'll do the others, if people wish.
Why does he say things like that? Just out with it man!

Because by "do" he means "make up" ... er, I mean, disclose early completely accurate information that is, sadly, subject to complete change.

**Deathly Angel**

Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple primarchs are still alive, although I think it would be ridiculous to make them playable. No more ridiculous than Draigo, lol

He does have a datasheet in Apocalypse. I cringe the thought of Draigo fighting a Primarch in an actual game.

**Kurgash**

Deathly Angel wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple primarchs are still alive, although I think it would be ridiculous to make them playable. No more ridiculous than Draigo, lol

He does have a datasheet in Apocalypse. I cringe the thought of Draigo fighting a Primarch in an actual game.

You know they will loop hole it to where their power on the table is significantly less as their hold on the immaterium was disrupted or some crap.

**Harriticus**

Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple primarchs are still alive, although I think it would be ridiculous to make them playable. No more ridiculous than Draigo, lol

Well since Draigo is capable of easily defeating and manhandling a Primarch there's no reason why they can't be playable models now.

The best option is probably a special character for each Legion:

-Black Legion: Abaddon
-World Eaters: Kharn
-Death Guard: Typhus
-Emperors Children: Lucius
-Thousand Sons: Ahriman
-Word Bearers: Some infamous Dark Apostle. Erebus, Marduk, or even Kor Phaeron. Something like that
-Iron Warriors: Honsou
-Night Lords: Tarraq Darkblood, stated in Codex Eye of Terror to be the most bloodthirsty and vicious in the legion or Talos or something.
-Alpha Legion: No idea. Arkos the Faithless is the only Alpha Legion character I know of, and he's in Imperial Armour and was captured by the Dark Angels.

Plus Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart.

**Deathly Angel**

Harriticus wrote:

-Alpha Legion: No idea. Arkos the Faithless is the only Alpha Legion character I know of, and he's in Imperial Armour and was captured by the Dark Angels.

Alpha Legion: No Special Character

Any Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorceror may take an Icon of the Alpha Legion for +??pts

Icon of the Alpha Legion: Confers the I am Alpharius special rule.

I am Alpharius: In the assualt phase, the Independant Character cannot be singled out in combat from any squad he is attached to.

**aka_mythos**

Deathly Angel wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Angron

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple primarchs are still alive, although I think it would be ridiculous to make them playable. No more ridiculous than Draigo, lol

He does have a datasheet in Apocalypse. I cringe the thought of Draigo fighting a Primarch in an actual game.

You guys have it wrong the "red angel" isn't Angron. The "red angel" is a different specific character... he's shown in Horus Heresy art books as a really scary possessed looking blood angel... wrapped in chains hovering with bright lights and energy shining from his skin, eyes, and from within his power armor. He's pictured amongst the chaos leaders of the heresy.

If he's in the book my blood angel berzerkers of Khorne will see the table once again.

**GentlemanGuy**

Now honsou i would love to see in this book XD hes always been my faveourite character ever since i read storm of iron. A bitter iron warrior with an imperial fist geneseed and a necron arm that self repairs and has a vendetta against a certain ultramarine XD i cant even think what his rules are gonna be

as for the word bearers deffinately Marduk. I know some people say it should be erebus but i reckon hes on the sort of level as a primarch (not that hes as powerful rather hes set on over seeing the legion inLogars place while the primarch is in solitude)

i dont know bout the night lords but the alpha legion should just have a sc called Alpharius and he has the rule above lol

**DarkStarSabre**

Harriticus wrote:The best option is probably a special character for each Legion:

-Black Legion: Abaddon
-World Eaters: Kharn
-Death Guard: Typhus
-Emperors Children: Lucius
-Thousand Sons: Ahriman
-Word Bearers: Some infamous Dark Apostle. Erebus, Marduk, or even Kor Phaeron. Something like that
-Iron Warriors: Honsou
-Night Lords: Tarraq Darkblood, stated in Codex Eye of Terror to be the most bloodthirsty and vicious in the legion or Talos or something.
-Alpha Legion: No idea. Arkos the Faithless is the only Alpha Legion character I know of, and he's in Imperial Armour and was captured by the Dark Angels.

Plus Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart.

To be honest if sticking to background you'd probably want new SCs for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons.

Simply because Typhus is a rebel who's doing things his own way and Ahriman is a very public outcast from the Legion for his deeds so I'd imagine their specific forces are somewhat different in structure to other Death Guard or Thousand Sons.

A good candidate for the Death Guard would be Grulgor - he's cropped up in a HH book and they've pretty much confirmed the Daemon Prince SC from Medusa V was him as well.

**Dravenguild**

I don't understand though, what bearing does the "Red Angel" have in the background otherwise? If he's just a possessed renegade I can see him in the non-legions book.

Sorry, I just haven't seen enough of the horus heresy fluff to understand his application.

**DarkStarSabre**

Iirc the Red Angel was the emissary between Horus and the Powers of the Warp. Not just a possessed renegade - the Blood Angel 'host' wasn't even a willing host.

**Anung Un Rama**

The Angel sounds like a pretty cool idea. Though I'm not sure I want to see rules for Mortarion. Because, if they do make rules, sooner or later there will be a model and chances are pretty good it'll be cooler than the one I already build.

**Kroothawk**

aka_mythos wrote:You guys have it wrong the "red angel" isn't Angron. The "red angel" is a different specific character... he's shown in Horus Heresy art books as a really scary possessed looking blood angel

ghost21 just confirmed that.

Concerning why he can flood the forum with rumours:

ghost21 wrote:Urm, yes. Everything to be taken with salt.

But it's been said for a while there would be 3 dexes, even if they decided to split the legions, well I've been told... for a while I heard there would be cult, and non cult dexes. However I was told that IF this happens the chaos dex would be delayed another 6 months at least.

My position within the company really? Do people want me to lose that? Honestly, I think there's 2 people who know who I am and where I work on this board.

And if you search my posts I do explain my hit and misses.

Lastly, I try not to post stats, some hints of rules certainly, but not everything... I do get into some hot water occasionally.

However, there are some people who object to the tight lipness of GW. And as long as they stay this way I'll continue to post what I have, even if I get a bent ear.

ghost out