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Randomonioum wrote:


You are aware that the Astartes use their own Mark of bolters, very large ones. I mean, have you see how big they are on the models? The 'civilian' issue ones are a hell of a lot smaller, and STILL massive to the user.

Bolters aren't really that big (or complex) as you guys are making them out to be, and spartans aren't really that small. It would look like a heavy bolter in their hands, but i strongly believe they could use them.

Randomonioum wrote:
Thats not really an acceptable argument, and I think we both know it But ok, lets run with it. What proof do you have that cortana would be able to analyze this weapon with absolutely no data. Sure, they could just mess around with it for half an hour, but then, Cortana isn't the one analyzing it, is she And don't bring up anything about analyzing covenant ship weapon systems and then making upgrades, in that case she was plugged into the actual computer, getting any data directly rather than having to go get it herself. A completely different scenario.

Exactly, that was a space ship, and this is a machine gun.

Randomonioum wrote:
Also, I think we have established that in this fight, it will be a bog standard Spartan, not the MC, because thats simply not very fair. It would be like comparing Lysander to a guardsman. And if MC isn't there, I don't think Cortana is.

We don't know how good MC is compared to other Spartans. They could all be equal in combat, or (more likely) have different strength's and weaknesses. Cortana said that she picked him over other Spartans just because he had more "luck" than the others.

And they can use other A.I .

im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Yeah...no. The sensors in Master Chief's hand could tell the difference between a spartan laser and a plasma pistol, sure, but an unknown weapon? I think not!

So, you would be completely clueless about how this works ?

Come on guys, don't overcomplicate things.

im2randomghgh wrote:
5. Not so much. The IG has a much larger impact on the galaxy, as well as the IN. Trillion/quadrillions of troopers is worth more than 1 million SM for sure.

This deserves a debate for itself.

Asherian Command wrote:
Most of the Spartans died on Reach right?
Half of the UNSC fleet was also lost.
...
fastfoward to 31st millenia.
horus Heresy.
+614,394,400 ships fighting above terra.
Space Marine Legions vs each other.
Daemons vs Space Marines
Titans
Space marines are 8 feet tall. On average.
A Spartan is 7feet tall. In many of the books. They are killed left and right in a dramatic way.

In most space marine books. Space marines die in the most horrific ways. For example Horus rising...
Spoiler:

A space marine also has something called a jet pack and they never travel alone.
Spartans Are lone wolves.
Especially Spartan II's
Master Chief, and the rest of them traveled in groups of three... They almost always were sent on sucidie missions. And most of them died on reach....

Space marines have never ever been wiped out completely to only 30 on one planet. The closest is probably the Dropsite massacre. But that was just something completely different. IT was worst than reach. It was hundreds of thousands of marines facing each other. Not just five hundred spartans vs a Covenant Armada which consisted of only 100 ships.
Compared to 40k. That is 900 ships too small.
Oh no super carrier.
Wait they did what? Oh yeah they blew it up with an engine. They also destroyed one with a nuke!
They were blinded by a small squad of skirmishers and elite zealots.... Thats what 100 covenant troops? In 40k the numbers are ridiculous. Reach had 300 million soldiers and a 250 trillion dollar defense budget.

The entire ultramarines chapter was deployed against the tyranid hive fleet. The entire chapter along with volunteers from a titan legion, pdf, IG regiments, other chapters. And the Entire Segment fleet.... IT took all that. And they still won. Only 3 companies were lost....

Just a few notes:

- Scale of 40k and Halo events are irrelevant for this debate.

- I would really like to know the source for "+614,394,400 ships fighting above terra."

- Spartans also have jet packs

- Statments that "Spartans are lone wolves" and "Master Chief, and the rest of them traveled in groups of three" contradict each other

- There were only 33 spartans

- Reach invasion force had more than 300 ships

- That is actually around 614.394.100 ships too small, according to your previous statement.

- The ship destroyed with a nuke in that trailer wasn't a super carrier.

- There's a bit more to say about that super carrier takedown than simple " They took it out with an engine".

Did you just say that scales of 40k and Halo are to be ignored?
They are very important to this debate, to determine how strong one is we must see the bigger picture.

And my point still stands how SPARTANS almost all gone with Mankind if not for MC and his plot armor... Humanity finest indeed....

Inb4 GW Marines vs SupCom Peewees

Brother Coa wrote:Did you just say that scales of 40k and Halo are to be ignored?
They are very important to this debate, to determine how strong one is we must see the bigger picture.

In a IoM vs UNSC debate yes. In Spartan vs. SM one, not really.

Brother Coa wrote:
And my point still stands how SPARTANS almost all gone with Mankind if not for MC and his plot armor... Humanity finest indeed....

This is a very ignorant comment.

verterdegete wrote:
In a IoM vs UNSC debate yes. In Spartan vs. SM one, not really.

That debate would be pointless, because we all know how that war would end.

Brother Coa wrote:
And my point still stands how SPARTANS almost all gone with Mankind if not for MC and his plot armor... Humanity finest indeed....

This is a very ignorant comment.

Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.
It is you who don't want to admit that Astartes are better warriors in general.

Except that there were wayy more space marines created than Spartans. So it's not relevant or important to the discussion

A bolter is probably about the same as that semi-automatic plasma gun on Halo reach which fires the blobs of explosive rounds. So one shotting a spartan is probably out of the question. A bolt rounds not like a rocket. Bullets, as we know, are only str3 so shooting a marine would be like trying to stop a hunter on the game; only with few weak points.

Probably the same strength. Both are described as being able to pulverise regular humans in a fist fight, being able to wrestle immensely strong aliens to the ground etc.

Skill wise, (considering they're both sci fi warriors not bound by the laws of reality in things such as real-world tactics), both are warriors from birth with many astartes coming from the most ruthless death worlds/violent hive worlds and have to undergo a rigourous training regime which kills most aspirants.

Luck. If an enemy like astartes were to come into the game, the cheif probably could deal with them much like he and other spartans have to contend with invariably better equiped enemies. Many elites have better shields, a few in Halo 2 could take multiple rocket rounds, were physically stronger and units like Hunters only have partial weaknesses. That said, through using cover and clever fighting to avoid letting the marines use their full strength as well as stealing their guns they could put up a very good fight.

In other words, if it was the chief or even Noble 6, you would own the space marines.

ps new Halo 4 trailer anyone interested

http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/28/new-art-based-halo-4-trailer-airs-at-pax/ scroll down page to see trailer

Totalwar1402 wrote:

A bolter is probably about the same as that semi-automatic plasma gun on Halo reach which fires the blobs of explosive rounds. So one shotting a spartan is probably out of the question. A bolt rounds not like a rocket. Bullets, as we know, are only str3 so shooting a marine would be like trying to stop a hunter on the game; only with few weak points.

Probably the same strength. Both are described as being able to pulverise regular humans in a fist fight, being able to wrestle immensely strong aliens to the ground etc.

Skill wise, (considering they're both sci fi warriors not bound by the laws of reality in things such as real-world tactics), both are warriors from birth with many astartes coming from the most ruthless death worlds/violent hive worlds and have to undergo a rigourous training regime which kills most aspirants.

Luck. If an enemy like astartes were to come into the game, the cheif probably could deal with them much like he and other spartans have to contend with invariably better equiped enemies. Many elites have better shields, a few in Halo 2 could take multiple rocket rounds, were physically stronger and units like Hunters only have partial weaknesses. That said, through using cover and clever fighting to avoid letting the marines use their full strength as well as stealing their guns they could put up a very good fight.

In other words, if it was the chief or even Noble 6, you would own the space marines.

ps new Halo 4 trailer anyone interested

http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/28/new-art-based-halo-4-trailer-airs-at-pax/ scroll down page to see trailer

1. Bolters do NOT fire rockets nor bullets and do not work like the fuel rod gun. They fire high velocity diamond tipped rounds that penetrate INTO the target, and then detonate. There is nothing like that in halo, and it is certainly more dangerous than rockets in a way, as they detonate within the target instead of blowing up against the target.

2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand?

3. Fair enough

4. This is not about the chief vs SM, this is about normal SPARTANs against normal SM. If you are adding the Chief into the equation, we might as well have him fight Draigo. And what do you mean elites have better shields and armor? SM cannot be killed with small arms unless you get very lucky. Elites can be easily killed by small arms provided you overload their shields, which doesn't take long.

Brother Coa wrote:

That debate would be pointless, because we all know how that war would end.

I wasn't going to start one. The answer is, as you said, obvious.

Brother Coa wrote:
Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.

You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions. Spartans were designed to be assassins. To squash planetary rebellions by killing their leaders, thus avoiding huge loss of material resources and human lives.

Their task in the war was to assassinate, sabotage, plant bombs etc.


The entire "Marines would hold the line and fight the fleetz" argument that you and some other people constantly bring up is completely irrelevant in the case of spartans, because their mission performance is measured by using completely different standards.

verterdegete wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

That debate would be pointless, because we all know how that war would end.

I wasn't going to start one. The answer is, as you said, obvious.

Brother Coa wrote:
Actually it is very accurate. It shows who is more efficient fighting force and more importantly - a solder.

You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions. Spartans were designed to be assassins. To squash planetary rebellions by killing their leaders, thus avoiding huge loss of material resources and human lives.


The entire "Marines would hold the line and fight the fleetz" argument that you and some other people constantly bring up is completely irrelevant in the case of spartans, because their mission performance is measured by using completely different standards.

In that case the question is...who would win? A SPARTAN or a Vindicare?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

In that case the question is...who would win? A SPARTAN or a Vindicare?

That's a good question... Or any other 40k assassin for that matter.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand [out of their armour]?

Just a quick edit to qualify that.

There's one thing many people seem to be forgetting, which is the height of an Astartes - 7'6'' - 9' in height (dependant on source). That gives them one hell of a massive reach with their arms. A SPARTAN would have to risk those massive hands with their phenomenal strength to get close enough to hit an Astartes, all the while the Astartes is able to move quicker than a human - neither their armour or bulk slow them down as they are strong enough to carry the combined weight easily.

As to SPARTANs using Astartes bolters, the big problem is the size of them. I'm sure with their enhanced strength a SPARTAN can pick one up, but their hands aren't big enough to wield it comfortably enough. On one of my recent trips to Warhammer World there was a 1:1 Astartes Stormbolter in a case in the stairwell beneath the museum. To pull the trigger I'd have needed three fingers and I would not have been able to hold the pistol grip at all. That grip was at least twice the width of my hands in length and thick enough that my hands would not have closed around it wholly.

soundwave591 wrote:Except that there were wayy more space marines created than Spartans. So it's not relevant or important to the discussion

How it is not relevant? The only SPARTAN that manage to did something to end the war was Master Chief.
On the other hand... Ultramarines held defended Macragge and thus saving countless billions from Tyranids, Space Wolves help to defend Armageddon against Chaos, Blood Angels help defend Armageddon against Orks, Slamanders and Raven Guard offer assistance to every Imperial Commander in need of one, Black Tempalrs are on a crusades to help protect the Imperium against ravaging alien empires and rebellious planets.

Space Marines are WAY more credited then SPARTANS because they get the job done, unlike some people... I think this is very important part of this "who is better" discussion.


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verterdegete wrote:You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions. Spartans were designed to be assassins. To squash planetary rebellions by killing their leaders, thus avoiding huge loss of material resources and human lives.

This just goes to Space Marines as well, because even the finest Imperial Assassins have big trouble to kill even one Astartes. Case closed - thank you.

Then this thread is really irreverent, because they won't stand a chance against even 1 Imperial assassin.
This should then be Eversor vs. SPARTAN.

Kaldor wrote:

I'm simply extending the hyperbolic BS thats been thrown my way. Spartans and Astartes are equals in terms of strength. Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, or wilfully ignorant.

I just have one question, Kaldor.

Did you read that great big wall o' text I posted earlier? Because, as I pointed out then, you're wrong.

If you don't want to look back through the thread for it, I'd be happy to quote it for you.

It's relevant because someone brought up how many were left. It's not hard to run out when at most you had ~100 total Spartan 2 and 3, fighting a enemy they knew nothing about at first using guns that werent super effective.

Also no he's just done the most, red team stoped the covenant from having a unstopable armada, grey team is still around causing trouble, completing their mission to disrupt enemy supply lines, they follow orders I.e. Only as effective as those ordering them

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

A bolter is probably about the same as that semi-automatic plasma gun on Halo reach which fires the blobs of explosive rounds. So one shotting a spartan is probably out of the question. A bolt rounds not like a rocket. Bullets, as we know, are only str3 so shooting a marine would be like trying to stop a hunter on the game; only with few weak points.

Probably the same strength. Both are described as being able to pulverise regular humans in a fist fight, being able to wrestle immensely strong aliens to the ground etc.

Skill wise, (considering they're both sci fi warriors not bound by the laws of reality in things such as real-world tactics), both are warriors from birth with many astartes coming from the most ruthless death worlds/violent hive worlds and have to undergo a rigourous training regime which kills most aspirants.

Luck. If an enemy like astartes were to come into the game, the cheif probably could deal with them much like he and other spartans have to contend with invariably better equiped enemies. Many elites have better shields, a few in Halo 2 could take multiple rocket rounds, were physically stronger and units like Hunters only have partial weaknesses. That said, through using cover and clever fighting to avoid letting the marines use their full strength as well as stealing their guns they could put up a very good fight.

In other words, if it was the chief or even Noble 6, you would own the space marines.

ps new Halo 4 trailer anyone interested

http://www.vg247.com/2011/08/28/new-art-based-halo-4-trailer-airs-at-pax/ scroll down page to see trailer

1. Bolters do NOT fire rockets nor bullets and do not work like the fuel rod gun. They fire high velocity diamond tipped rounds that penetrate INTO the target, and then detonate. There is nothing like that in halo, and it is certainly more dangerous than rockets in a way, as they detonate within the target instead of blowing up against the target.

2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand?

3. Fair enough

4. This is not about the chief vs SM, this is about normal SPARTANs against normal SM. If you are adding the Chief into the equation, we might as well have him fight Draigo. And what do you mean elites have better shields and armor? SM cannot be killed with small arms unless you get very lucky. Elites can be easily killed by small arms provided you overload their shields, which doesn't take long.

1-Not the fuel rod gun, the gun they inserted into reach which has a redish tint and fires slow moving rounds. Pretty sure bolter rounds are rocket projected explosive warheads. A rocket launcher is a rocket launcher and therefore has str8 ap3 and would instant kill a marine. If you look at stuff the steel legion and the orks have its actually more primitive than what the UNSC has. Also, they only go INTO the target, if it penetrates their armour, which even joe carapace armour can stop; those who die are killed by the force of the explosion or hitting exposed areas. In Halo Fall of Reach the unshielded Spartans actually get shot at by a whole army of grunts with plasma pistols and needlers but are able to resist with just their armour. That seems a bit tougher than just carapace armour which is more comparable to what ODST's/Halo CE marines wear. Given abstractions in the game, that probably would=a 3+ save. Much like SOB armour is technically less protective than that of marines (see Dark heresy n Death watch) but for the sake of arguement puts it into a 3+ save.

2-They can crush an elites skull, in one of the books a spartan rugby tackles a hunter, when the chief recieves his augmentations he shatters a ODST's pelvis with a single kick. During that fistfight he actually kills several of them and that was WITHOUT his armour. So yes a human skull would be very easy. Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.

4-Halo 2 on High Charity as the chief elites which have the white colouration require multiple rocket rounds to kill. i think several other units require large amounts of fire to kill ie Brute Chieftens who don't even have shields. It can also take a considerable amount of fire on legendary and if you don't hit them in the head with a battle rifle/DMR which is the easiest way to kill them then they actually take quite a lot of damage considering they're in the open. Also, the lore is massively contentious as to how tough Space Marines actually are. In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma) and in the Horus Heresy their armour is easily cut through by bolt rounds and marines with knives; even though that wouldn't actually happen in game. According to Fire Warrior, marine armour is vulnerable at the eye sockets and joints. Kais also kills a marine with a basic plasma grenade. So they're not invincible, I mean even Ciaphus Cain kills one with a chainsword! Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.

'They're tough, but they ain't invincible.'-Sergent Johnson commenting on a covenant scarab


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:2. Can Spartans crush a man's skull with one hand [out of their armour]?

Just a quick edit to qualify that.

There's one thing many people seem to be forgetting, which is the height of an Astartes - 7'6'' - 9' in height (dependant on source). That gives them one hell of a massive reach with their arms. A SPARTAN would have to risk those massive hands with their phenomenal strength to get close enough to hit an Astartes, all the while the Astartes is able to move quicker than a human - neither their armour or bulk slow them down as they are strong enough to carry the combined weight easily.

As to SPARTANs using Astartes bolters, the big problem is the size of them. I'm sure with their enhanced strength a SPARTAN can pick one up, but their hands aren't big enough to wield it comfortably enough. On one of my recent trips to Warhammer World there was a 1:1 Astartes Stormbolter in a case in the stairwell beneath the museum. To pull the trigger I'd have needed three fingers and I would not have been able to hold the pistol grip at all. That grip was at least twice the width of my hands in length and thick enough that my hands would not have closed around it wholly.

Sisters of battle use the exact same weapons without much trouble, including storm bolters.

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Of course it does. You said that they couldn't survive with only one heart. They can. It also allows them to make more efficient use of their muscles.

Only when using them aerobically. Anaerobic usage, the kind you'd expect to find in intense combat situations, would be unchanged.

2. It wasn't gaping. Plus, it would be closed by Larraman cells.

It was gaping. And no amount of larraman clots are going to be enough to prevent explosive decompression of internal organs.

3. So is every single one of the astartes plugs. It is not like Spartan Where fake muscles push their arms similar to the way muscles would but from the outside. No, astartes become their armour. It's fiber bundle muscles and other simulated muscles BECOME the astartes muscles.

As does Mjolnir armour. Concede the point already.

Also, if you have ever watched the world's strongest man competition, they deadlift SUVs.


3900kgs for a supersoldier isn't that impressive. Especially since spartans almost definately lift with their legs while flipping warthogs.

Woah woah woah! Who said anything about deadlifts? All the text says is 'lift'. I'm imagining lateral side raises, buddy.

In Fall of Reach, theres a scene where, unarmoured, a Spartan kicks an armoured lifting rig ala Ripley from Aliens, bending it and hurling it backwards several metres. The same kick to a LR would have crumpled it.

And I am the fanboy?

Yes, you're the fanboy. You're unable to concede a point, make up ridiculous assertations and ignore similar points from the opposition. You've picked a side, and now can't imagine that you might be wrong, or that there might be merit to your opponents points.

RustyKnight wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Wait, you are saying that because a Sparten could knock up some box mover that he could dent a Battletank?

There is a heck of a big difference between an armored forklift and a 72ton battletank.

Doesn't the Land Raider have hilariously thin/weak armor by modern standards?

Only if we use the completely ignorent steel equivilant GW gave in the 80s.

I choose to ignore that bit because GW didn't do ANY reaserch when giving that number and made the Landraider have weaker armor then a Stuart.

Given what Landraiders are shown to withstand in the Novels and in the Codices we can assume they are much stronger then an Abrams.


FWIW: I would give Halo the same benift if its designers did the same stupid thing.

In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)

They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.

Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.

Not even close. Space marines are larger and heavier than brutes OR Elites, and on top of that are disproportionately huge for their size. In Space Marine you can over-power a nob, who is the equivalent of a hunter.

Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.

It really isn't. A charged plasma pistol shot would be, probably, about as powerful as a lasgun. Those things are BEASTLY. An overcharged lasgun can destroy the frontal armour on dreadnoughts and blow tanks up.

Seriously, a lasgun would be game-breakingly good in halo, and they are one of the weakest guns in 40k.


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im2randomghgh wrote:

In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)

They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.

Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.

Not even close. Space marines are larger and heavier than brutes OR Elites, and on top of that are disproportionately huge for their size. In Space Marine you can over-power a nob, who is the equivalent of a hunter.

Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.

It really isn't. A charged plasma pistol shot would be, probably, about as powerful as a lasgun. Those things are BEASTLY. An overcharged lasgun can destroy the frontal armour on dreadnoughts and blow tanks up.

Seriously, a lasgun would be game-breakingly good in halo, and they are one of the weakest guns in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
.

I'am pretty sure the pulse rifle isn't that strong. Its simply that the authors of most black library books may be okay with making marines awesome but having them walk through enemy fire (like they can in the game) would be too much of a stretch to put into words. I don't know what a pusle rifle would do to a guardsman; turn them into mist? Its quite difficult to compare examples when the writers of books for both series are massively inconsistent and often don't relate at all to the actual game. Especially the Halo books, where Spartans. Are. Gods.

I think you're exaggerating with the lasgun. If it really could do that, then the marines would go the same way knights did in the 16th century once you had muskets that could be given to everyone. When does a lasgun blow up a dreadnought?

Brother Coa wrote:


How it is not relevant? The only SPARTAN that manage to did something to end the war was Master Chief.


On the other hand... Ultramarines held defended Macragge and thus saving countless billions from Tyranids, Space Wolves help to defend Armageddon against Chaos, Blood Angels help defend Armageddon against Orks, Slamanders and Raven Guard offer assistance to every Imperial Commander in need of one, Black Tempalrs are on a crusades to help protect the Imperium against ravaging alien empires and rebellious planets.

Guess i'll have to quote myself:

verterdegete wrote:

You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions.

Brother Coa wrote:
Space Marines are WAY more credited then SPARTANS because they get the job done, unlike some people...

Space Marines are credited the way they are because they are GW's cash cow.

Brother Coa wrote:
This just goes to Space Marines as well, because even the finest Imperial Assassins have big trouble to kill even one Astartes. Case closed - thank you.

And you know that - how ? The only fluff source about this matter is the event when the Assassins Grand Master rebelled:

"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."



And then there is the table top...

Totalwar1402 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

In Courage and Honour they take cover from Pulse Weapons when ambushing a Devilfish (which probably aren't that more powerful than Covenant plasma)

They are enormously more powerful. Let me put it this way: Lasguns blow arms clean off, which makes their power comparable to a modern .50 cal anti-matter rifle, but with less penetrating power.

Using the books its especially apparent that Spartans are as strong as marines and elites/brutes would be stronger.

Not even close. Space marines are larger and heavier than brutes OR Elites, and on top of that are disproportionately huge for their size. In Space Marine you can over-power a nob, who is the equivalent of a hunter.

Also, in gaunts ghousts a lasgun set on the highest setting can kill a marine with a headshot, which is probably comparable to a charged plasma pistol round.

It really isn't. A charged plasma pistol shot would be, probably, about as powerful as a lasgun. Those things are BEASTLY. An overcharged lasgun can destroy the frontal armour on dreadnoughts and blow tanks up.

Seriously, a lasgun would be game-breakingly good in halo, and they are one of the weakest guns in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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I'am pretty sure the pulse rifle isn't that strong. Its simply that the authors of most black library books may be okay with making marines awesome but having them walk through enemy fire (like they can in the game) would be too much of a stretch to put into words. I don't know what a pusle rifle would do to a guardsman; turn them into mist? Its quite difficult to compare examples when the writers of books for both series are massively inconsistent and often don't relate at all to the actual game. Especially the Halo books, where Spartans. Are. Gods.

I think you're exaggerating with the lasgun. If it really could do that, then the marines would go the same way knights did in the 16th century once you had muskets that could be given to everyone. When does a lasgun blow up a dreadnought?

Pulse rifles can destroy vehicles. And they probably would have survived having pulse shots volleyed at them, but why would they risk damaging their armour when they can take cover? It is simply good tactics.

The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion

It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought

...is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour)

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You are just trying to put spartans in the context of 40k universe and then measure their fighting capabilities by applying SM/conventional warfare standards on them. Spartans aren't used for conventional warfare. They don't siege cities or forts, they don't storm planets, they don't charge on trenches with millions of guardsmen behind them, and you wont see them grouped up on a hill fighting millions of monsters that come from all directions.

that's because in 40k the enemies numbers are so entirely massive that hit-and-run and guerrilla warfare are useless. Okay, you ambushed a patrol of a dozen orks? Congrats, here comes 10,000 more.

And you know that - how ? The only fluff source about this matter is the event when the Assassins Grand Master rebelled:

"A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol."

Against an unknown number of assassins, with an unknown number of marines.

And there is another example. In Nemesis, it took an eversor and a callidus together to kill space marine of the Luna Wolves.

Fair enough. I was writing some fanfiction and I always figured something like that would happen if an unarmoured human was shot by a pulse weapon. Lots of mist.

True, in the game we can't take cover AND an armour save. (Could you imagine? )

Ah I remember the dread bit, it only damaged the dreads hull enough for those death plants to pierce the thing because of the noise it made and were thus impaled. If I remember right.

Ghoust of Onyx has the most 40k like description of Spartans where 300 of them attack an entire covenant army in the open and kill thousands of them. They're described as killing elites, stealing their swords then throwing them away when spent to pick up more. Usually Spartan 2s are more cautious since they are a vital asset whilst marines are 'Space Mureens!! ' and fight like that all the time.

Also, if you look at whats str4, then would you say that a kroot is stronger than a spartan/elite/brute; a genestealer? Are you saying a SOB in power armour is the same as a Spartan? I doubt it. Its not unprecedented for aliens to have str4 without any armour aiding them so spartans, elites and brutes which are described as having beyond human strength would probably be in the same category as marines; if not stronger. I mean the chief can flip a tank over!

Then again, Titus was able to overpower the canons on an ork battleship

Totalwar1402 wrote:Fair enough. I was writing some fanfiction and I always figured something like that would happen if an unarmoured human was shot by a pulse weapon. Lots of mist.

True, in the game we can't take cover AND an armour save. (Could you imagine? )

Ah I remember the dread bit, it only damaged the dreads hull enough for those death plants to pierce the thing because of the noise it made and were thus impaled. If I remember right.

Yeah, it made a huge crack along the front of the dread. Enough that if that guardsman still had his gun, he might have been able to fire directly at the pilot of the dread.

Lasguns are a good weapon that does horrific damage to flesh, but it has poor penetration qualities(unless it is super charged, in which case it melts right through PA)

Its kinda the difference between a large low velocity round that just tears flesh apart, but is stopped by body armor because it isn't made for penetration.


The bolter solves this problem by having both an armor piercing tip and containing an explosive charge.

The Lasgun just has intense damage, but low penetration.

im2randomghgh wrote:

that's because in 40k the enemies numbers are so entirely massive that hit-and-run and guerrilla warfare are useless. Okay, you ambushed a patrol of a dozen orks? Congrats, here comes 10,000 more.

Thar's more likely because GW concentrates it's fluff on massive battles and encounters, rather than guerilla warfare.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Against an unknown number of assassins, with an unknown number of marines.

Well, it's a known number of assassins - 100 of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And there is another example. In Nemesis, it took an eversor and a callidus together to kill space marine of the Luna Wolves.

You also have an example where it took an entire Deathwing team to hunt down one CSM.



And we have the Tabletop rules...

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

that's because in 40k the enemies numbers are so entirely massive that hit-and-run and guerrilla warfare are useless. Okay, you ambushed a patrol of a dozen orks? Congrats, here comes 10,000 more.

Thar's more likely because GW concentrates it's fluff on massive battles and encounters, rather than guerilla warfare.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Against an unknown number of assassins, with an unknown number of marines.

Well, it's a known number of assassins - 100 of them.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And there is another example. In Nemesis, it took an eversor and a callidus together to kill space marine of the Luna Wolves.

You also have an example where it took an entire Deathwing team to hunt down one CSM.



And we have the Tabletop rules...

1. Because when you have tyranids eating your planet guerrilla warfare does nothing. At all. Gaunts, which are worth ~a human in war, are fired as BULLETS by the more advanced bio-morphs.

2. For all we know it could have been 1 marine from each of the three chapters. It probably wasn't, but the variable number of marines makes this moot.

3. Entirely possible. This CSM could have been favoured by his gods, the deathwatch could have just wanted to send a full team to be certain. Either way, the example with the Luna Wolf was because the Eversor wasn't going to win.

I actually agree with the guy. The rules mean that an eversor has quite a good chance of killing a squad of marines. Also, a vindicare was able to kill the Primarch of the Night Lords, even though he knew his death was coming he still allowed it to happen and never bothered reforming his soul in the warp but the rifle was clearly powerful enough to do that. I haven't read Nemesis, but its probably because they took the view assasians are just regular people and therefor have to be weaker than astartes even if the rules contradict it. That breaks the norm that the game inflates the powers of stuff on the tabletop, since two assasians in CC would certainly be able to kill multiple marines. Another good example is Death cult assasians who easily have better equipment and stats than a marine.

But that seems a bit OT since the question is
marines vs spartans

Totalwar1402 wrote:Sisters of battle use the exact same weapons without much trouble, including storm bolters.

The weapons used by Sororitas, Guard, Imperial Navy personnel & other various humans are scaled down to fit a human hand. An Astartes would not be able to fit his power-armoured finger inside the trigger guard of a weapon scaled for human hands, whilst Astartes weapons are just so oversized a human can't use them comfortably. For example the bolter used by Sororitas is the Godwyn-De'az, which is essentially a Godwyn bolter but smaller so that Sororitas (and the few other humans who get their hands on one) can wield it comfortably.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. Because when you have tyranids eating your planet guerrilla warfare does nothing. At all. Gaunts, which are worth ~a human in war, are fired as BULLETS by the more advanced bio-morphs.

So, you are saying that there is no guerilla warfare in 40k ?

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. For all we know it could have been 1 marine from each of the three chapters.

Or could be 3 full companies. Which is more likely, having in mind that they are storming an Assassins HQ, and that those same assassins previously killed the High Lords of Terra.

im2randomghgh wrote:

3. Entirely possible. This CSM could have been favoured by his gods, the deathwatch could have just wanted to send a full team to be certain. Either way, the example with the Luna Wolf was because the Eversor wasn't going to win.

The point was that you can't rely on these kind of sources. Every writer has his own vision of 40k (just as we do), and the "protagonist" side usually gets boosted in strength. (I haven't read the book though. I will comment it when i do.)