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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Another problem is that you are assuming that the spartan has a 100% chance of hitting the eyes with each shot. That is wrong, as it would be very, very difficult to do so at a safe range.

With an A.I on board, i think that's pretty much possible. That's literally like having an aim-bot in your head.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They are, after all, humanities greatest warriors.

So are Spartans.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Good luck to the Spartan if he can get the damned bolter to work. They look very unwieldy.

I don't see any reason why they can't use them

Brother Coa wrote:
The Astartes kept Mankind safe for 10.000 years against so many different threat, most of them would make you gak your pants.

And most of them are related to other Astartes that went psychotic.


Yet, there are no Chaos Spartans.

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.

A second heart isn't THAT useful. It increases bloodflow, sure, but if one gets ruined the loss of pressure will render the other one inoperable anwyay.

You seem to forget that in Halo, they had to leave a Spartan behind in one of the books because there was a small puncture in the light mesh of his armour's undersuit.

As anyone would have to be left behind. It wasn't a small hole in his suit, it was a large abdominal wound. A Marine attempting to go EVA under those circumstances would also be turned inside out.

Again you are forgetting something. Spartans have biofoam. Space marine suits also have their own hosts of medical equipment, which, unlike spartans, is NOT limited to biofoam. They have all kinds of hormones that can be injected into themselves for various situations, and don't even need biofoam.

Fair enough.

Also, The link with spartan armor isn't as deep, and spartans are weaker.

Erm, no, the link with spartan armour is much more advanced than astartes black carapace, and spartans are stronger, if anything.

1. Doubling your maximal heart rate and making your bloodflow incomparably stronger is a massive advantage. Think of it this way: a long-distance runner will have a massive advantage in anything physical over a morbidly obese couch potato with a failing heart. This isn't even an extreme example: the second heart would simply make marines indefatigable. And actually, in the fluff marines survive and continue fighting with their second heart out.

2. No he wouldn't. They have an organ specifically meant for that, which covers them in a layer of mucus that seals them off against the void. Either way, the first thing that kills you in a void is lack of oxygen, 2001: a space odyssey had it right. The cold isn't a problem because there isn't enough matter to absorb your heat, and human skin, along with the circulatory system, is enough to negate any pressure differential. The only pressure issue when in the void of space is when you return to your shuttle, you will have issues similar to when divers resurface abruptly (ear drums popping, ocular trauma etc.).

4. Actually their link is much, much more rudimentary. Spartans have a small node in the back of their head: Space Marines have dozens all over their body that connects to each aspect of their being, given them a profound link to their armour: it becomes their second skin.

And there is NO WAY a spartan is stronger. A spartan probably couldn't even lift a thunderhammer.

An average space marine is 7'6 and easily twice the girth of a normal man, probably more. They are taller, wider, thicker and more massive than a human could ever possibly be. I'd wager an armourless marine could toss a spartan about like a toddler. And they wear tanks, and are more skilled and experienced than spartans, using weapons that nothing in the entire halo universe can compare to.

A spartan is MAYBE half that girth, 10" shorter (MC is 6'10) about half the weight of a Space Marine, way less experienced and with inferior training.

There is NO WAY they are stronger. Their armour is inferior to an enormous degree.

HUGE unarmoured areas on them. Space marines have the inside of their joints and their neck as their only weaker areas, and even then, they have armoured rubber/small, moving plates (depending on source) protecting these.

The reason you might shoot the groin area is because you may be trying to shatter the pelvis and/or puncture the Arteries that feed the legs.


The SPARTEN doesn't know that a Space Marine cares nothing for his chicken nuggets or that his blood will clot instantly and so he will simply be taking his foe at face value(Thick armor over entire body, aim for weak spots such as the head and groin)

verterdegete wrote:
And most of them are related to other Astartes that went psychotic.

Yet, there are no Chaos Spartans.

Not most of them, most dire battles Astartes were part of happened after HH. Also - no Hell in HALO universe and because of that no Chaos SPARTANS.

My personal opinion is that a space marine would be able to defeat a Spartan II. But without some sort of standard between the two, it is difficult to say. I don't know how much force ceremite can absorb or an iron halo and compare that to whatever materials were used in a Spartan II.

Also the Spartan II was developed around 2550. That leaves a 38000+ year gap in mechanical and bio technology in favor of the IoM.

Now that you mentioned that... it may be possible that SPARTANS inspire the Emperor then to make Space Marines in the future.

Also one more thing that goes to Space Marines - numbers. How many SPARTANS are alive in HALO and how many Space Marines in 999.M41?

More like 28,000 years, Space Marines were developed just around M30.

I don't see any reason why they can't use them (Bolters)

Because they are the size of a small child.


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Grey Templar wrote:More like 28,000 years, Space Marines were developed just around M30.

Well considering that humanity was crippled horrifically just the Dark Age of Technology, it is like starting from scratch in the m25

Bolters could be used by the Spartens, but they would be very cumbersome. Grip being far too large for their hands and fingers/SPARTEN not knowing how to mess with the relativly simple magazine "What is this?" "There's no ammo meter and it doesn't auto-eject the magazine!"

Brother Coa wrote:
Not most of them, most dire battles Astartes were part of happened after HH

... against Chaos Space Marines and renegade Chapters that went berzerk.

Brother Coa wrote:
Also - no Hell in HALO universe and because of that no Chaos SPARTANS.

I didn't mean literally Chaos Space marines. I meant to say that spartans don't fall to moral and emotional extremes like SM do.

"Like damn holding back a lake, when a Space Marine's will finally breaks, the result is catastrophic as the whole edifice of his purpose and self-being fall into disarray."

yes, but even then its still completely different to a normal humans emotions(which SPARTENs still have)

A Space Marines grief would not be the same as a normal humans.

Grey Templar wrote:yes, but even then its still completely different to a normal humans emotions(which SPARTENs still have)

A Space Marines grief would not be the same as a normal humans.

And spartans are less devoted to the fight-they retire.

... against Chaos Space Marines and renegade Chapters that went berzerk.

Umm...no. There aren't that many space marines, battles against renegades are rare. The HH and the First war for armaggeddon, along with the black crusades, are the only MAJOR astartes vs astartes battles.

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters could be used by the Spartens, but they would be very cumbersome. Grip being far too large for their hands and fingers/

Well if they are >>2m tall, can flip a tank, and wear a 500kg armor - i guess they can use a bolter.

Grey Templar wrote: "There's no ammo meter and it doesn't auto-eject the magazine!"

Spartans don't need ammo meter because the sensors on his armor counts that for him. And they have
sensors in their gloves that detect the type of weapon.

(I'm not joking, it's on the Halo wiki)

verterdegete wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Bolters could be used by the Spartens, but they would be very cumbersome. Grip being far too large for their hands and fingers/

Well if they are >>2m tall, can flip a tank, and wear a 500kg armor - i guess they can use a bolter.

Grey Templar wrote: "There's no ammo meter and it doesn't auto-eject the magazine!"

Spartans don't need ammo meter because the sensors on his armor counts that for him. And they have
sensors in their gloves that detect the type of weapon.

(I'm not joking, it's on the Halo wiki)

1. They do not wear 500kg armour. they are 500 kg while wearing the armour. And space marine armour is WAY heavier. And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD. they are simply massive. The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.

2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And spartans are less devoted to the fight-they retire.

That's because they are not indoctrinated/conditioned to not retire.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The HH and the First war for armaggeddon, along with the black crusades, are the only MAJOR astartes vs astartes battles.

Yeah, only that...

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

And spartans are less devoted to the fight-they retire.

That's because they are not indoctrinated/conditioned to not retire.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The HH and the First war for armaggeddon, along with the black crusades, are the only MAJOR astartes vs astartes battles.

Yeah, only that...


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verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

And spartans are less devoted to the fight-they retire.

That's because they are not indoctrinated/conditioned not to retire.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The HH and the First war for armaggeddon, along with the black crusades, are the only MAJOR astartes vs astartes battles.

Yeah, only that...

Notice how major is in caps?

And yes, the battle are rare. There is an entire galaxy with only 1,000,000 loyal space marines and ~100,000 CSM

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. They do not wear 500kg armour. they are 500 kg while wearing the armour.

The exact weight is not important here. If the armor weighted 300kg or 600kg, it's the same point.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD.

Size of a child is a very wide term. A spartan laser, and that canon that Jorge uses are also the size of a child.


Sigh... damn it, they can flip a warthog.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.

Astartes aren't the only one's that can use a bolter. (I know you know that. I'm just reminding you)

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.

Cortana can analyze it. No probs.


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im2randomghgh wrote: There is an entire galaxy with only 1,000,000 loyal space marines and ~100,000 CSM

Yet they still decide the fate of the galaxy.

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD.

Size of a child is a very wide term. A spartan laser, and that canon that Jorge uses are also the size of a child.


Sigh... damn it, they can flip a warthog.

The spartan laser is certainly long, but its definitely not as chunky as a bolter. And lets be reminded that even if the Spartan can pick it up and use it, it is designed to be used as a rifle, not a heavy weapon. And looking at how they carry their spartan lasers, a weapon you agree is the same size...

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.

Astartes aren't the only one's that can use a bolter. (I know you know that. I'm just reminding you)

You are aware that the Astartes use their own Mark of bolters, very large ones. I mean, have you see how big they are on the models? The 'civilian' issue ones are a hell of a lot smaller, and STILL massive to the user.

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.

Cortana can analyze it. No probs.

Thats not really an acceptable argument, and I think we both know it But ok, lets run with it. What proof do you have that cortana would be able to analyze this weapon with absolutely no data. Sure, they could just mess around with it for half an hour, but then, Cortana isn't the one analyzing it, is she And don't bring up anything about analyzing covenant ship weapon systems and then making upgrades, in that case she was plugged into the actual computer, getting any data directly rather than having to go get it herself. A completely different scenario. Also, I think we have established that in this fight, it will be a bog standard Spartan, not the MC, because thats simply not very fair. It would be like comparing Lysander to a guardsman. And if MC isn't there, I don't think Cortana is.

verterdegete wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. They do not wear 500kg armour. they are 500 kg while wearing the armour.

The exact weight is not important here. If the armor weighted 300kg or 600kg, it's the same point.

im2randomghgh wrote:

And a bolter is THE SIZE OF A CHILD.

Size of a child is a very wide term. A spartan laser, and that canon that Jorge uses are also the size of a child.


Sigh... damn it, they can flip a warthog.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The only reason astartes can use them is a combination of their being simply massive, and their armour auto-compensating.

Astartes aren't the only one's that can use a bolter. (I know you know that. I'm just reminding you)

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. Well their sensors obviously cannot detect the type of weapon for a weapon they have never encountered before, nor can they guess how much ammo is in it without having prior knowledge of the function of said weapon.

Cortana can analyze it. No probs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote: There is an entire galaxy with only 1,000,000 loyal space marines and ~100,000 CSM

Yet they still decide the fate of the galaxy.

1. Whatever

2. In the space marine game, you can flip a CSM over your head, one handed. You can also overpower an ork nob, who's one par with a hunter in size and strength. And the child in question was an adolescent.

3. They are the only ones who use astartes bolter. Not every bolter in 40k is one of those used by Space Marines. And the only other primary users of bolters are Sisters, who use smaller bolters and who also wear PA.

4. Yeah...no. The sensors in Master Chief's hand could tell the difference between a spartan laser and a plasma pistol, sure, but an unknown weapon? I think not!

5. Not so much. The IG has a much larger impact on the galaxy, as well as the IN. Trillion/quadrillions of troopers is worth more than 1 million SM for sure.

im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Doubling your maximal heart rate and making your bloodflow incomparably stronger is a massive advantage. Think of it this way: a long-distance runner will have a massive advantage in anything physical over a morbidly obese couch potato with a failing heart. This isn't even an extreme example: the second heart would simply make marines indefatigable. And actually, in the fluff marines survive and continue fighting with their second heart out.

2. No he wouldn't. They have an organ specifically meant for that, which covers them in a layer of mucus that seals them off against the void. Either way, the first thing that kills you in a void is lack of oxygen, 2001: a space odyssey had it right. The cold isn't a problem because there isn't enough matter to absorb your heat, and human skin, along with the circulatory system, is enough to negate any pressure differential. The only pressure issue when in the void of space is when you return to your shuttle, you will have issues similar to when divers resurface abruptly (ear drums popping, ocular trauma etc.).

4. Actually their link is much, much more rudimentary. Spartans have a small node in the back of their head: Space Marines have dozens all over their body that connects to each aspect of their being, given them a profound link to their armour: it becomes their second skin.

And there is NO WAY a spartan is stronger. A spartan probably couldn't even lift a thunderhammer.

1 - Whatever. That doesn't help your point at all.

2 - Anyone with a gaping abdominal wound will be in deep gak if they try to enter a hard vacuum. A 'layer of mucus' isn't going to do squat.

3 - The 'plug' in the back of their head is a link to a full neural network link. It provides a link so deep "it is impossible to chart reaction times.' It is literally a part of their body. The armour also weighs 450kgs empty, and 650kgs when worn by a Spartan II, who are also a good 7 to 8 feet in height. They can easily lift 3900kgs in armour, and as stated have no trouble digging their fingers into dropship bulkheads to provide a handgrip.

Look, I'm all for engaging in a fun debate, but could you try and take your fanboy glasses off for a while and look at things with a bit of objectivity? Spartans are strong enough to juggle family sized cars, for christs sake! Inferior training? You gotta be kidding me...

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Doubling your maximal heart rate and making your bloodflow incomparably stronger is a massive advantage. Think of it this way: a long-distance runner will have a massive advantage in anything physical over a morbidly obese couch potato with a failing heart. This isn't even an extreme example: the second heart would simply make marines indefatigable. And actually, in the fluff marines survive and continue fighting with their second heart out.

2. No he wouldn't. They have an organ specifically meant for that, which covers them in a layer of mucus that seals them off against the void. Either way, the first thing that kills you in a void is lack of oxygen, 2001: a space odyssey had it right. The cold isn't a problem because there isn't enough matter to absorb your heat, and human skin, along with the circulatory system, is enough to negate any pressure differential. The only pressure issue when in the void of space is when you return to your shuttle, you will have issues similar to when divers resurface abruptly (ear drums popping, ocular trauma etc.).

4. Actually their link is much, much more rudimentary. Spartans have a small node in the back of their head: Space Marines have dozens all over their body that connects to each aspect of their being, given them a profound link to their armour: it becomes their second skin.

And there is NO WAY a spartan is stronger. A spartan probably couldn't even lift a thunderhammer.

1 - Whatever. That doesn't help your point at all.

2 - Anyone with a gaping abdominal wound will be in deep gak if they try to enter a hard vacuum. A 'layer of mucus' isn't going to do squat.

3 - The 'plug' in the back of their head is a link to a full neural network link. It provides a link so deep "it is impossible to chart reaction times.' It is literally a part of their body. The armour also weighs 450kgs empty, and 650kgs when worn by a Spartan II, who are also a good 7 to 8 feet in height. They can easily lift 3900kgs in armour, and as stated have no trouble digging their fingers into dropship bulkheads to provide a handgrip.

Look, I'm all for engaging in a fun debate, but could you try and take your fanboy glasses off for a while and look at things with a bit of objectivity? Spartans are strong enough to juggle family sized cars, for christs sake! Inferior training? You gotta be kidding me...

1. Of course it does. You said that they couldn't survive with only one heart. They can. It also allows them to make more efficient use of their muscles.

2. It wasn't gaping. Plus, it would be closed by Larraman cells.

3. So is every single one of the astartes plugs. It is not like Spartan Where fake muscles push their arms similar to the way muscles would but from the outside. No, astartes become their armour. It's fiber bundle muscles and other simulated muscles BECOME the astartes muscles. Spartans are not "7-8 feet".

Master chief is 6'10
Emile is 6'10
Naomi is 2m (6'6)
Serin is 6'3
Joshua 7'
William is 7'
Jorge (the tallest Spartan) 7'4
Adriana described as being slightly over 6'
Carter is 6'10
Catherine is 6'9
Jun is 6'11.

As you can see, the average is about 6'10-6'11.

NOT 7-8'.

Also, if you have ever watched the world's strongest man competition, they deadlift SUVs.


3900kgs for a supersoldier isn't that impressive. Especially since spartans almost definately lift with their legs while flipping warthogs.

In Salamanders, Tu'shan is pinned underneath a Landraider and lifts it off himself. He was lying on his back, with the Landraider on tip of him. He basically bench-pressed it. That's 72 tons, or 72000kgs. With just his chest and triceps. And he's not even an especially large marine, like Ba'ken or Pasanius.

And I am the fanboy? I don't even like Astartes. I simply acknowledge the fact that they are amongst the best, if not THE best, most powerful example of the Space Marine archtype. They are simply OP. YOU on the other hand, seem to think Spartans are unstoppable forces of nature that can slay gods with a thought.

Brother Coa wrote:And again only one men saw my post....

There are still people favorite SPARTANS over the Astartes? The Astartes kept Mankind safe for 10.000 years against so many different threat, most of them would make you gak your pants.

SPARTANS did a hell of a job to, nearly all killed and Mankind evading extermination just barely.

Im not here to point out who wins, I merely point out the fallacy in the few meter fall damage in a game to be used in an argument.

Most of the Spartans died on Reach right?
Half of the UNSC fleet was also lost.
...
fastfoward to 31st millenia.
horus Heresy.
+614,394,400 ships fighting above terra.
Space Marine Legions vs each other.
Daemons vs Space Marines
Titans
Space marines are 8 feet tall. On average.
A Spartan is 7feet tall. In many of the books. They are killed left and right in a dramatic way.

In most space marine books. Space marines die in the most horrific ways. For example Horus rising...

A space marine also has something called a jet pack and they never travel alone.
Spartans Are lone wolves.
Especially Spartan II's
Master Chief, and the rest of them traveled in groups of three... They almost always were sent on sucidie missions. And most of them died on reach....

Space marines have never ever been wiped out completely to only 30 on one planet. The closest is probably the Dropsite massacre. But that was just something completely different. IT was worst than reach. It was hundreds of thousands of marines facing each other. Not just five hundred spartans vs a Covenant Armada which consisted of only 100 ships.
Compared to 40k. That is 900 ships too small.
Oh no super carrier.
Wait they did what? Oh yeah they blew it up with an engine. They also destroyed one with a nuke!
They were blinded by a small squad of skirmishers and elite zealots.... Thats what 100 covenant troops? In 40k the numbers are ridiculous. Reach had 300 million soldiers and a 250 trillion dollar defense budget.

The entire ultramarines chapter was deployed against the tyranid hive fleet. The entire chapter along with volunteers from a titan legion, pdf, IG regiments, other chapters. And the Entire Segment fleet.... IT took all that. And they still won. Only 3 companies were lost....

Don't even get me started on the Death Watch's secret weapon projects!
I love halo. But the only universe that beats them by a long shot is Mech Commander. Who I will not even discuss because they are freaking ridiculous along with the Mass Effect universe's reapers.

im2randomghgh wrote: 1. Of course it does. You said that they couldn't survive with only one heart. They can. It also allows them to make more efficient use of their muscles.

Only when using them aerobically. Anaerobic usage, the kind you'd expect to find in intense combat situations, would be unchanged.

2. It wasn't gaping. Plus, it would be closed by Larraman cells.

It was gaping. And no amount of larraman clots are going to be enough to prevent explosive decompression of internal organs.

3. So is every single one of the astartes plugs. It is not like Spartan Where fake muscles push their arms similar to the way muscles would but from the outside. No, astartes become their armour. It's fiber bundle muscles and other simulated muscles BECOME the astartes muscles.

As does Mjolnir armour. Concede the point already.

Also, if you have ever watched the world's strongest man competition, they deadlift SUVs.


3900kgs for a supersoldier isn't that impressive. Especially since spartans almost definately lift with their legs while flipping warthogs.

Wait, you are saying that because a Sparten could knock up some box mover that he could dent a Battletank?

There is a heck of a big difference between an armored forklift and a 72ton battletank.

Grey Templar wrote:Wait, you are saying that because a Sparten could knock up some box mover that he could dent a Battletank?

There is a heck of a big difference between an armored forklift and a 72ton battletank.

I'm simply extending the hyperbolic BS thats been thrown my way. Spartans and Astartes are equals in terms of strength. Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, or wilfully ignorant.

Grey Templar wrote:Wait, you are saying that because a Sparten could knock up some box mover that he could dent a Battletank?

There is a heck of a big difference between an armored forklift and a 72ton battletank.

Doesn't the Land Raider have hilariously thin/weak armor by modern standards?

Hmmm not sure who would win

But the nodes are the same the 1 for Spartans is at least equal to the 12 for space marines, if they also have one in the neck doing the same thing the extra 11 don't do squat.

The two hearts were designed to work TOGETER losing one would still kill them, having both though I a advantage as it increases reflexes and such.

And all it would take is some Spartan lasers they wod be ap 1 and have a continues line for it's shot, depending on when it's shot it could kill up to 10 on one shot(if it hits ten in ares that would kill them, but in CC space Marines all the way


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Oh and a elephant is at least as heavy, if not heavier, then a LR

Just throwing this out there, and I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already, but... The Scorpion tank in Halo weighs 66 metric tons according to http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M808B_Main_Battle_Tank and as I said I'm not sure if you guys ruled it out yet (I myself do find it a bit ludicrous) but there's the fact that in every game you can kinda FLIP the 66 ton tank completely over. That much force applied straight to the side of a Bassie or a Russ (not much of a SM guy here, I just know my IG) could most likely punch a hole clean through or crumple the armor. Anybody else wanna do the Mathammer here? That's equivalent to 586767.0914 Newtons of force just to lift it off the ground, much less flip it end for end. Somebody give me an example of SM manilness in the lifting and flipping category and I'll calculate it out to the best of my ability. Might as well get some use out of my Physics classes


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Oh and for the record I try to stay away from comparing the tech of each universe and just stick to the numbers, but I do recall in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels a single lasgun shot to the head of a CSM actually blew his brains out. One of the Guardsmen disobeyed orders and turned his power up to high instead of saving ammo like Guardsmen are supposed to and took the Marine out with one clean shot. Now if someone could please give me a readout of the lasgun's typical power from the Departmento Munitorium I could proceed to giving some numbers to base the weapon strengths off of for each universe.

Or we could just say that the SM and the Chief realize they have better things to be fighting than each other and have the Spartans join a Scout Marine squad as independent characters and forget about arguing over which one is better. Hell, I'm just having fun crunching numbers!


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In response to SM emotion, a nifty quote for it is, "Do NOT think lowly of guardsmen. It's easy for us fight - we are as powerful as a human can be. But Guardsman have to run over the corpses of their friends, and still have the resolve to fire their lasguns." -Reclusiarch Lacelles, Eclipse Hawks Chapter.

As for the Bolter firing, check pages 62 and 98 of the IG codex. Gunnery Sgt. 'Stonetooth' Harker carries a heavy bolter named "Payback" as his primary weapon and still manages to be part of a stealth squad. Keep in mind that no matter how manly he is or how many watermelons he's smuggling in his biceps, he's still just a Guardsman. Toting a weapon only meant to be mounted on tanks. So it IS possible, even in the 40k universe. Just a bit unwieldy I suppose. And for the record the SM boltguns of all varieties have the exact same profile as the ones in the IG codex that the little Guardsman can use, so I would assume SMs just have bigger grips and such to fit their meaty paws. No more destructive than what any other man can use.

Asherian Command wrote:Mass Effect universe's reapers.

I can see a BIG thread in a near future....