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Kaldor wrote:

Dr.Dakka wrote: spartains have many melee attacks.

This is displayed in cutscenes, gameplay, and the animated series. And though the melee capabilities of a Spartan are not universal, eache Spartan being a specialist, a level of advanced proficiency is displayed by all of Noble Team in Reach.

This coupled with the fact that despite the limited game mechanic for melee, Mater Chief and Noble 6 both non melee specialists regularly defeat Elites who have a.strong blade culture in plasma sword fights. Elites are at the very least masters of the blade on the level of any master samurai, and hold these skills to be holy.

Indeed. Check it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_cRZ24BVKM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O3Dlujvyu0

Theres more for those interested.

Definately leaves Astartes for dead

No. It doesn't. These were some of the worst, most half assed action scenes I've ever seen.
Therefore it doesn't prove anything. Seriously, the reaction times of the elites were ridiculously sluggish, not to mention that they did not give the impression of being expert melee warriors at all.

Space Marines arn't immune to bullets so much as they are bullet resistant.

Their ribcages are completely fused and rigid and their bones are different from normal human bone(Ceramic compounds are mentioned, gained from dietary supplements)

Bullets will have a nearly impossable task of getting through this inbuilt body armor. They would have to be extremely powerful/armor piercing to do it.


Secondly, we have the enhanced Astartes body itself.

Most gunshot related deaths arn't caused by the bullets actual damage, IE; the tissue that the bullet actually passes through and puts a hole in. Death is caused by either bleeding out OR from Hydrostatic shock. Bleeding to death is prevented by the Larremen cells that can create a clot almost instantly, only unable to work if the wound is simply too large. Hydrostatic shock isn't specifically adressed, but the toughened tissues of a marine will reduce thee damage from this effect.

These 2 extra features will protect a marine that gets hit in his fleshy bits.

Astartes muscle is far denser then a normal human(and has more mass) and will be tougher for a bullet to penetrate.


Lasguns are more effective then a solid slug projectile because they can superheat the water in the marine's body very quickly. The rapid boiling of the water will blow out the area hit and cause deeper burns. A solid slug projectile(that relies on the target bleeding or suffering some critical organ damaged) has less damage potential.

I'll just leave this here. Not that I expect an objective response at this point, but you never know.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

Kaldor wrote:I'll just leave this here. Not that I expect an objective response at this point, but you never know.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

To be fair, I did mention that a SPARTAN-II was a hell of a lot faster than a SM, but that got drowned out with "that's impossible, they're not Eldar."

Guys, if you want to know who is better between those two just put them against their enemies.

Could a 1000 Space Marines stand against Covenant on Reach?
Could 1000 SPARTANS stood against Tyranids on Macragge?

Who would fare better of those two?

Brother Coa wrote:
Could a 1000 Space Marines stand against Covenant on Reach?
Could 1000 SPARTANS stood against Tyranids on Macragge?

No. And no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And N6 and the Chief are in the same category of "Hyper Lethal Vector" despite the Chief being superior in every way and having far more kills on his record.

No offence but you are wrong, Entire Chapter with it's fleet and armor support would wipe the floor with Covenant.

You said 1000 Marines, never mentioned fleet or armoured support. Besides, the Covenant invasion force on Reach would easily destroy a single Chapter.

But your Coa, so admitting the imperium couldn't win ain't gonna happen.

If there are 1000 marines in one place, they have their entire fleet and armored support. No and's if's or but's.

There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.

verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.

When I sid 1000 Marines I also tough that you guys would know that Chapter Fleet and Armory and PDF and Guard Regiments and AA Planetary Laser batteries and Adeptus Mechanicus War Machines would also be included. 1000 MArine alone cn't do anything, same goes for 1000 SPARTANS. But Marines have Imperial Guard and SPARTANS have UNSC troops.

Why I always much mentioned everything? Can you all alone concur that Marines always go with some support in battle...

verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.

You sure?

What was the length of that ship in Kilometers?

Imperial Battleships(including Battlebarges) are around 6.5-7 kilometers in length depending on the class. Torpedoes are the size of our modern day skyscrapers, having an insanely huge Fusion warhead to match.

Kaldor wrote:I'll just leave this here. Not that I expect an objective response at this point, but you never know.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

Yeah, I read 'em earlier. You're not quite understanding what people mean when they say that Space Marines are "over the top". We mean that it seems like GW anticipated these very arguments, and deliberately set out to make Space Marines unquestionably more badass than any other genetically modified supersoldier in any other piece of fiction. Let's break it down.


There is one ability which SPARTANS receive from their biological implants and Space Marines don't, directly; improved reflex action speed, due to faster neurotransmission. That is, indeed, an important advantage; although it should be noted that even in this area Space Marines aren't clearly behind, as they receive years of intense hypno-therapy and chemical conditioning which is designed to give them this very ability, along with many others. But let's leave that aside and focus only on the physical implants for now.

Space Marine biological improvements give them a host of OTHER advantages, which more than compensate. Here's a list, leaving out those that SPARTANS also possess, such as super-dense muscle, hardened bones, and enhanced eyesight; we'll assume that SPARTAN biotech and Space Marine biotech are equally efficient for the purpose of this discussion, so those enhancements that they both have we won't count on either side. Furthermore, we won't bother to mention those enhancements which Space Marines possess, but are not directly relevant to a combat scenario. The particular implant which provides each enhancement is also listed.

-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
-Increased blood supply and redundant circulatory organs, both increasing a Space Marine's strength and speed by supplying far more oxygen and nutrients to his muscles than a human (or SPARTAN) can, and allowing him to survive normally catastrophic damage to his original heart. (Secondary heart)
-Increased oxygen-carrying efficiency of blood, allowing a Space Marine to draw more energy from a given amount of oxygen than normal. (Haemastamen)
-Increased oxygen capacity due to additional lung volume, allowing Space Marines to function in environments too oxygen-poor for humans to survive. (Multi-lung)
-The ability to absorb oxygen from toxic environments without injury. This includes the ability to breathe and function normally underwater.(Multi-lung)
-The ability to form scar tissue within seconds after suffering an injury, preventing blood loss and infection from wounds. (Larraman's Organ)
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
-Protection against extreme temperatures and low-pressure environments, including limited protection even from vacuum. (Mucranoid, Melanochrome to some extent)
-Direct neural connection to the machine-spirit of their personal suit of power armor, essentially allowing them to react and move much more quickly and flexibly than is possible without such a connection. This is why Astartes power armor is personal; only one Space Marine can connect to a given suit in this manner, and it must be individually adapted to that particular Space Marine. (Black Carapace)


So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.

A SPARTAN has reinforced bones; a Space Marine has reinforced bones AND has grown them into a suit of bullet-proof plate armor around his internal organs, which makes him much more resistant to injury.

A SPARTAN has enhanced musculature; a Space Marine has enhanced musculature AND more efficient oxygen transfer AND more oxygen circulating overall, so unless you want to argue that the SPARTAN augmentation is by itself more effective than all of those put together (which you can't, since Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancement work identically) a Space Marine is much stronger than a SPARTAN, and faster as well.

A SPARTAN has enhanced eyesight; a Space Marine has enhanced eyesight AND improved hearing (over which can exercise conscious control to the point of selectively focusing on certain sounds) AND can find his enemies by smell alone, which means that he's nearly always going to be the ambusher rather than the ambushee.

In addition to all this a Space Marine can function normally in environments where a SPARTAN would quickly die; maneuver and remain indefinitely in places that a SPARTAN cannot either see into or fight in (such as deep underwater); fight without sleep, unimpaired, for an extended period (permitting him to keep the SPARTAN under continuous pressure until he started to make mistakes due to fatigue); and survive injuries that would kill a SPARTAN immediately, including flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma. A SPARTAN is less physically capable than a Space Marine in every aspect of warfare, and on top of that the average Space Marine will have literally decades of experience over any SPARTAN-II.

None of this is 'fanwank'. I haven't made any of this up, it comes straight from the Codex and official materials. I don't play Space Marines, and I don't particularly like it that they're so over the top and Mary Sue-ish, but I do mind your claim that noting the fact that Space Marines are ludicrously powerful even in comparison to other sci-fi supersoldiers somehow removes my objectivity.

And, by the way, here's a handy source where you can read up on and confirm all of this, if you like. All sourced straight to the Codex and easily confirmable, so yes, this is official.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines

verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.

If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies. Mainly due to ranged, Halo space battles are close ranged affairs happening at 1000s of km. 40k battles take place at 10000-100000 of km. Also 40k has a significant speed advantage sublight, allowing its superior firepower to stay at range.

I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.

On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.

Say what you want about a spartan vs space marine, but the IN would dominate most of the sci fi fleets.

Draigo wrote:In darkhunters he takes a whole clip.. In Counters first book gk fell to lasgun fire.. So yea contradictory for sure.

Well I guess it depends where you get hit. Space marines have a lot of redundancy in their bodies, but I can't imagine a lasbeam in the brain not killing them, or anything really.

And there was a lot more than 1 clip from a lasgun that took down the GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

verterdegete wrote:There is no SM chapter in the 40k fluff that could survive the Reach invasion. With or without or it's fleet. The Covenant supercarrier that spearheaded the invasion was bigger than any Imperium Capital Ship. Also, the Covenant have the numbers, and the Covenant have the tech.

If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies. Mainly due to ranged, Halo space battles are close ranged affairs happening at 1000s of km. 40k battles take place at 10000-100000 of km. Also 40k has a significant speed advantage sublight, allowing its superior firepower to stay at range.

I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.

On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.

Say what you want about a spartan vs space marine, but the IN would dominate most of the sci fi fleets.

Also, Emperor class ships aren't much smaller than the supercarrier, and when you account for width and thickness...and the IoM's vastly superior tech, numbers and scale...IN would eat the Supercarrier. Also, Imperial Starforts are much, much larger. Ex: The Phalanx is the size of a moon. Phalanx could probably dock the Supercarrier.

Where ground combat is concerned...a Space Marine chapter could have EASILY repelled the assault on reach. The Crimson fists had about 200 marines defending against an Ork WAAAGH! (An ork WAAAGH! is so much bigger than the assault on reach...tens of millions of orks, and their numbers will start replenishing themselves after a few weeks into the campaign) And these orks would likely outnumber the grunts in the invasion force will being about the equivalent of a brute, only harder to kill. And the Crimson fists held them for WEEKS with having lost only a few dozen marines. They only needed reinforcements once the orks built gargants. No weapon in the UNSC could kill a titan, short of a super MAC.

IN is some kind of ridiculous. The escorts capital ships in get in 40k are bigger than star destroyers.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'll just leave this here. Not that I expect an objective response at this point, but you never know.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

Yeah, I read 'em earlier. You're not quite understanding what people mean when they say that Space Marines are "over the top". We mean that it seems like GW anticipated these very arguments, and deliberately set out to make Space Marines unquestionably more badass than any other genetically modified supersoldier in any other piece of fiction. Let's break it down.


There is one ability which SPARTANS receive from their biological implants and Space Marines don't, directly; improved reflex action speed, due to faster neurotransmission. That is, indeed, an important advantage; although it should be noted that even in this area Space Marines aren't clearly behind, as they receive years of intense hypno-therapy and chemical conditioning which is designed to give them this very ability, along with many others. But let's leave that aside and focus only on the physical implants for now.

Space Marine biological improvements give them a host of OTHER advantages, which more than compensate. Here's a list, leaving out those that SPARTANS also possess, such as super-dense muscle, hardened bones, and enhanced eyesight; we'll assume that SPARTAN biotech and Space Marine biotech are equally efficient for the purpose of this discussion, so those enhancements that they both have we won't count on either side. Furthermore, we won't bother to mention those enhancements which Space Marines possess, but are not directly relevant to a combat scenario. The particular implant which provides each enhancement is also listed.

-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)
-Increased blood supply and redundant circulatory organs, both increasing a Space Marine's strength and speed by supplying far more oxygen and nutrients to his muscles than a human (or SPARTAN) can, and allowing him to survive normally catastrophic damage to his original heart. (Secondary heart)
-Increased oxygen-carrying efficiency of blood, allowing a Space Marine to draw more energy from a given amount of oxygen than normal. (Haemastamen)
-Increased oxygen capacity due to additional lung volume, allowing Space Marines to function in environments too oxygen-poor for humans to survive. (Multi-lung)
-The ability to absorb oxygen from toxic environments without injury. This includes the ability to breathe and function normally underwater.(Multi-lung)
-The ability to form scar tissue within seconds after suffering an injury, preventing blood loss and infection from wounds. (Larraman's Organ)
-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)
-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)
-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)
-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)
-Protection against extreme temperatures and low-pressure environments, including limited protection even from vacuum. (Mucranoid, Melanochrome to some extent)
-Direct neural connection to the machine-spirit of their personal suit of power armor, essentially allowing them to react and move much more quickly and flexibly than is possible without such a connection. This is why Astartes power armor is personal; only one Space Marine can connect to a given suit in this manner, and it must be individually adapted to that particular Space Marine. (Black Carapace)


So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.

A SPARTAN has reinforced bones; a Space Marine has reinforced bones AND has grown them into a suit of bullet-proof plate armor around his internal organs, which makes him much more resistant to injury.

A SPARTAN has enhanced musculature; a Space Marine has enhanced musculature AND more efficient oxygen transfer AND more oxygen circulating overall, so unless you want to argue that the SPARTAN augmentation is by itself more effective than all of those put together (which you can't, since Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancement work identically) a Space Marine is much stronger than a SPARTAN, and faster as well.

A SPARTAN has enhanced eyesight; a Space Marine has enhanced eyesight AND improved hearing (over which can exercise conscious control to the point of selectively focusing on certain sounds) AND can find his enemies by smell alone, which means that he's nearly always going to be the ambusher rather than the ambushee.

In addition to all this a Space Marine can function normally in environments where a SPARTAN would quickly die; maneuver and remain indefinitely in places that a SPARTAN cannot either see into or fight in (such as deep underwater); fight without sleep, unimpaired, for an extended period (permitting him to keep the SPARTAN under continuous pressure until he started to make mistakes due to fatigue); and survive injuries that would kill a SPARTAN immediately, including flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma. A SPARTAN is less physically capable than a Space Marine in every aspect of warfare, and on top of that the average Space Marine will have literally decades of experience over any SPARTAN-II.

None of this is 'fanwank'. I haven't made any of this up, it comes straight from the Codex and official materials. I don't play Space Marines, and I don't particularly like it that they're so over the top and Mary Sue-ish, but I do mind your claim that noting the fact that Space Marines are ludicrously powerful even in comparison to other sci-fi supersoldiers somehow removes my objectivity.

And, by the way, here's a handy source where you can read up on and confirm all of this, if you like. All sourced straight to the Codex and easily confirmable, so yes, this is official.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines

Brilliant.

Also, Even before factoring the hearts and multi lung and everything a space marine has, we can physically see their muscle mass is quite a bit greater than spartans, being roughly twice as wide and almost a foot taller on average.

Also, Space Marine bones are made, in large part, of ceramite, the same stuff as their armour. Spartan bones only have 3% additives, which isn't very much. I'd say this goes to space marines as well.

And I would like to clarify, much as BeRzErKeR did, that i am not a marine player, nor am I a marine fan.

I play tau, DE and oldcrons.

BeRzErKeR wrote: Let's break it down.

Lets.

I'll leave in your post, the actual advantages an Astartes has over a Spartan. Then we can discuss how significant any advantages are.

-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)

I'm taking out the one about the secondary heart, as the Spartan augmentation specifically mentions drastic reductions in lactase recovery times. It's only fair to assume that cancels out the benefits of increased bloodflow.

I'm taking out the one about the Marine being able to survive in low-oxygen environments and absorbing toxins due to the multi-lung, as I've always assumed both combatants should be considered to be in their armour.

I'm taking out the one about the Larramans cells, as that will be cancelled out by automatic biofoam injectors.

-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)

-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)

-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)

-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)

I'm taking out the one about surviving in vacuum, and about the black carapace, as Mjolnir amour is also EVA rated, and features neural interlocking systems.

So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.

The way I read it, the only true advantages a Marine has is that he can hear well, is immune to toxins (although how his body defines 'toxin' and I'll never know) and operate on extended hours due to the Catalepsean node.

Stregth is equal, IMO. I'd give the advantage to the Spartans in strength, given their feats in the literature, but that won't fly with you folks.

Their armour is equal, with an obvious agility and speed bonus to the Spartans.

Reaction time (and therefore, coupled with agility, a greater ranged skill) goes to the Spartans.

Survivability, I think, is a wash. Biofoam is just as efficient at stopping bleeding, which is all Larraman cells can do. Biofoam can also stabilise blood pressure, and keep pressure on wounds where necessary. Large wounds are more than either can handle. The ossified ribcage of the Marine is neat, but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard, and the extra protection it provides is limited.

Being able to hear and taste exceptionally is pretty cool (and not often picked up on in the fluff) but it also means you have to take your helmet off, and around sharpshooters like Spartans thats just a good way to get your head ventilated.

Kaldor wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: Let's break it down.

Lets.

I'll leave in your post, the actual advantages an Astartes has over a Spartan. Then we can discuss how significant any advantages are.

-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)

I'm taking out the one about the secondary heart, as the Spartan augmentation specifically mentions drastic reductions in lactase recovery times. It's only fair to assume that cancels out the benefits of increased bloodflow.

I'm taking out the one about the Marine being able to survive in low-oxygen environments and absorbing toxins due to the multi-lung, as I've always assumed both combatants should be considered to be in their armour.

I'm taking out the one about the Larramans cells, as that will be cancelled out by automatic biofoam injectors.

-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)

-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)

-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)

-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)

I'm taking out the one about surviving in vacuum, and about the black carapace, as Mjolnir amour is also EVA rated, and features neural interlocking systems.

So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.

The way I read it, the only true advantages a Marine has is that he can hear well, is immune to toxins (although how his body defines 'toxin' and I'll never know) and operate on extended hours due to the Catalepsean node.

Stregth is equal, IMO. I'd give the advantage to the Spartans in strength, given their feats in the literature, but that won't fly with you folks.

Their armour is equal, with an obvious agility and speed bonus to the Spartans.

Reaction time (and therefore, coupled with agility, a greater ranged skill) goes to the Spartans.

Survivability, I think, is a wash. Biofoam is just as efficient at stopping bleeding, which is all Larraman cells can do. Biofoam can also stabilise blood pressure, and keep pressure on wounds where necessary. Large wounds are more than either can handle. The ossified ribcage of the Marine is neat, but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard, and the extra protection it provides is limited.

Being able to hear and taste exceptionally is pretty cool (and not often picked up on in the fluff) but it also means you have to take your helmet off, and around sharpshooters like Spartans thats just a good way to get your head ventilated.

About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.

You seem to forget that in Halo, they had to leave a Spartan behind in one of the books because there was a small puncture in the light mesh of his armour's undersuit.

Again you are forgetting something. Spartans have biofoam. Space marine suits also have their own hosts of medical equipment, which, unlike spartans, is NOT limited to biofoam. They have all kinds of hormones that can be injected into themselves for various situations, and don't even need biofoam.

Also, The link with spartan armor isn't as deep, and spartans are weaker.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies.

We don't really know how advanced UNSC or IN ships are. It's not that simple to compare them. For example, unlike extremely advanced IN ships, UNSC (and Covenant) ships can jump space with 99% probability that they will get on their exact destination, without getting raped by daemons, or getting lost in time, or growing crab claws etc...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Mainly due to ranged, Halo space battles are close ranged affairs happening at 1000s of km. 40k battles take place at 10000-100000 of km. Also 40k has a significant speed advantage sublight, allowing its superior firepower to stay at range.

Range doesn't matter in this case. As i said, ships in Halo universe can do light speed jumping with extreme precision (at least compared to 40 universe). Whats the point of 100 000km range advantage, when they can simply teleport hundreds of meters above you. And tbh, i'm not sure that we have enough info to compare their sub light speed capabilities.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.

Well, they do also have assault carriers which are 5-6 km long. And we can't really judge their fighting capabilities just by comparing the strength of their armor. (Dark Eldar agree with me 100% on this one )

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.

Don't underestimate the Elites. They are extremely honor obsessed (and 2.5 meters tall).


I'm not saying that Covenant fleet is better than IN, or that it's even on par with IN. I'm just saying that the Covenant army shouldn't be underestimated, and that it's a respectable fighting force even on 40k scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.

True, but a Spartan has a working penis. Imho: Working penis >>>> second heart and third lung.

im2randomghgh wrote:About second heart-it really doesn't match having 50% more lungs and twice the bloodflow. As well as being able to survive having a heart ripped out. Having slightly less lactic acid means nothing compared to that. In Blood Gorgons Barsabbas demolished and entire fort, with his hands, before the lactic acids started to build up. There is no reason for acids to build in your muscles until the oxygen in your arms has been depleted.

A second heart isn't THAT useful. It increases bloodflow, sure, but if one gets ruined the loss of pressure will render the other one inoperable anwyay.

You seem to forget that in Halo, they had to leave a Spartan behind in one of the books because there was a small puncture in the light mesh of his armour's undersuit.

As anyone would have to be left behind. It wasn't a small hole in his suit, it was a large abdominal wound. A Marine attempting to go EVA under those circumstances would also be turned inside out.

Again you are forgetting something. Spartans have biofoam. Space marine suits also have their own hosts of medical equipment, which, unlike spartans, is NOT limited to biofoam. They have all kinds of hormones that can be injected into themselves for various situations, and don't even need biofoam.

Fair enough.

Also, The link with spartan armor isn't as deep, and spartans are weaker.

Erm, no, the link with spartan armour is much more advanced than astartes black carapace, and spartans are stronger, if anything.

verterdegete wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
If the realitivly low tech UNSC could hold its own, while being out numbered, the extremely advanced Imperial Navy would mop the floor with the covies.

We don't really know how advanced UNSC or IN ships are. It's not that simple to compare them. For example, unlike extremely advanced IN ships, UNSC (and Covenant) ships can jump space with 99% probability that they will get on their exact destination, without getting raped by daemons, or getting lost in time, or growing crab claws etc...

Indeed, by comparison, UNSC ships not only do things more reliably, but much more accurately too. Who's to say they aren't the most advanced?

verterdegete wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
I looked it up a Super Carrier is 27km long. On the other hand, their carriers are only around 1500 meters long. And their crusiers even smaller. The Super Carrier is a legitiment threat, if it ever closes to attack range. However if the UNSCs MAG (or was it MAC) cannons can take out covie ships, a Nova Cannon will devestate a covie fleet.

Well, they do also have assault carriers which are 5-6 km long. And we can't really judge their fighting capabilities just by comparing the strength of their armor. (Dark Eldar agree with me 100% on this one )

Agreed. DE and Eldar ships (usually about escort ship size, i.e. 1500m long) regularly run rings around the large, well-armoured and massively unwieldy ships of the Imperium, and are regarded as a 'legitimate threat.' Given how precisely Cov ships can move, there's no reason to assume that they can't do exactly the same thing.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
On the off chance their was a boarding action, defending the ships are humans in carapace armor, with a devotion to duty that makes elites look they have the courage of grunts.

Elites will almost always fight to the death in almost every situation they are presented with. I think they match the SM there.

To try and present an unbiased point, from what I have read already let us assume that Spartans and Space Marines have approximately equal strength. Secondly, let us assume that the Spartan is fighting a Codex chapter marine. Also, I am ignoring the purpose each was created. S-IIs for BAMF spec-ops soldiers by normal humans and Space Marines to conquer the galaxy and created by demi-god level being.

By scenario-
Unarmed, naked, and locked in a room (No groin punches)-Spartan will most likely be faster/more responsive outside his/her armor, but space marine will be more resilient. While S-IIs may have increased bone density and denser muscles, space marines have augmentations which provide more durability. Space Marine wins unless Spartan gets a good 1st punch to the eyes or something like that after a decent length fight. How many can the marine kill-1. With two or more Spartans the equation changes considerably-While a marine has spent most of his life fighting in a group, the Spartans grew up together after being kidnapped-Stronger personal bond and better teamwork IMO. Also, the Spartans are more willing to try unorthodox tactics, and 2 targets force the marine to divide up his attention and swings.

Armor only, H2H fight locked in a room- Power armor is tougher, but the Spartan gets regenerating energy shields and bio-foam injectors start to offset the advantage of Laraman Cells. I am choosing to say offsets because since Larraman Cells actually enable the marine to create scar tissue, whereas biofoam most likely has a limited supply. The Spartan's armor also has less bulk than the marine's. Not enough information on how quickly MJOLNIR shields regenerate, how long bio-foam injectors can be used and how they are affected when the armor takes a beating, and the weaknesses of power armor. Not enough information to make a call. In a 5 on 5 or other team fight I would say marines would win because their armor does not rely on shields and it is physically hardr and does not have as many areas with obviously lesser amounts of plating, which would make more of a difference when you can spread out or bunch up.

1 on 1 weapons and armor-Assuming Spartan brings sniper or laser, the Spartan has a decent chance. The spartan laser is most likely similar to a lascannon, and the sniper rifle can be used to shoot at the marine's eye lenses or armor joints. However, the marine has a bolter, and a few shots from it will probably kill the Spartan. If the spartan shoots and hits first, he will most likely win, and if the marine does, the spartan will sneak away and shoot again after his shields regenerate. The marine wants to get into close combat, where the chainsword or even Astartes knife gives him the advantage. If the Spartan has an energy sword/hammer it will be an almost even fight against a power sword IMO, Spartan wins against chainsword with an energy sword.
-Outcome depends on the following-Who strikes first
-Does either expend his ammo and does the spartan run out of cover spots
-What close combat weapons do the two have-energy sword/gravity hammers against power fists/thunder hammers the Spartan wins as the Marine's weapons
hinder his mobility. Energy Sword against power sword marine has an advantage as his sword is made for a human hand/fighting style. Please bring up other
scenarios.

10 man squad of Spartans against 10 Man tac squad, both dropped off on battlefield on battlefield (them only, no others)
-Spartans bring spartan laser and sniper
-Marines bring ML and special weapon-probably plasma?

Spartans-let me know what you think their battle plan is. I think they would split up and use cover/concealment to try and get the 1st shot on the marines
Marines-Combat squad, go hunting but do it very very obviously

Again, it depends on who strikes first, runs out of ammo first, or if they get into close combat. One important thing is that if a marine dies, Spartan picks up a bolter. If a space marine, even out of ammo and has no way to get some from the other marines, he doesn't touch that heretical technology.

Please let me know what you think of my analysis and provide feedback

Thanks

BTNeophyte wrote:
1 on 1 weapons and armor-Assuming Spartan brings sniper or laser, the Spartan has a decent chance. The spartan laser is most likely similar to a lascannon, and the sniper rifle can be used to shoot at the marine's eye lenses or armor joints. However, the marine has a bolter, and a few shots from it will probably kill the Spartan. If the spartan shoots and hits first, he will most likely win, and if the marine does, the spartan will sneak away and shoot again after his shields regenerate. The marine wants to get into close combat, where the chainsword or even Astartes knife gives him the advantage. If the Spartan has an energy sword/hammer it will be an almost even fight against a power sword IMO, Spartan wins against chainsword with an energy sword.
-Outcome depends on the following-Who strikes first
-Does either expend his ammo and does the spartan run out of cover spots
-What close combat weapons do the two have-energy sword/gravity hammers against power fists/thunder hammers the Spartan wins as the Marine's weapons
hinder his mobility. Energy Sword against power sword marine has an advantage as his sword is made for a human hand/fighting style. Please bring up other
scenarios.

10 man squad of Spartans against 10 Man tac squad, both dropped off on battlefield on battlefield (them only, no others)
-Spartans bring spartan laser and sniper
-Marines bring ML and special weapon-probably plasma?

Spartans-let me know what you think their battle plan is. I think they would split up and use cover/concealment to try and get the 1st shot on the marines
Marines-Combat squad, go hunting but do it very very obviously

Again, it depends on who strikes first, runs out of ammo first, or if they get into close combat. One important thing is that if a marine dies, Spartan picks up a bolter. If a space marine, even out of ammo and has no way to get some from the other marines, he doesn't touch that heretical technology.

Please let me know what you think of my analysis and provide feedback

Thanks

Spartan lasers are not lascannons. They supposedly cannot kill a tank in one hit. That said, it should still cause quite a bit of damage. Another problem is that you are assuming that the spartan has a 100% chance of hitting the eyes with each shot. That is wrong, as it would be very, very difficult to do so at a safe range. Headshots wouldn't work because the marine's helmet would block it, and even if it does hit the eye, it will have to bypass the lens, which I expect have been designed to be very tough.

Another problem you have with your analysis that you are assuming that marines cannot fight subtly and will just go all gung ho hunter killer on the spartans. That is incorrect, as they are in fact capable of using tactics and planning ambushes. They are, after all, humanities greatest warriors.

Good luck to the Spartan if he can get the damned bolter to work. They look very unwieldy.

im2randomghgh wrote:I am not talking about falling into bottomless pits. I am talking about falling a level or two and losing your shield.

Again, take that example he used and apply....

Halo would have to be tons larger for that to be accurate, till then, falling damage for short distance is used for game balance.

Or else, a gun would shoot waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay further right?

Think out side the box....

And again only one men saw my post....

There are still people favorite SPARTANS over the Astartes? The Astartes kept Mankind safe for 10.000 years against so many different threat, most of them would make you gak your pants.

SPARTANS did a hell of a job to, nearly all killed and Mankind evading extermination just barely.

Kaldor wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: Let's break it down.

Lets.

I'll leave in your post, the actual advantages an Astartes has over a Spartan. Then we can discuss how significant any advantages are.

-Growth of (ceramically-reinforced) bone tissue into dense, interlocking plates, which provide a bulletproof layer of secondary armor over vital organs. Yes, it is explicitly called "bulletproof". (Ossmodula)

I'm taking out the one about the secondary heart, as the Spartan augmentation specifically mentions drastic reductions in lactase recovery times. It's only fair to assume that cancels out the benefits of increased bloodflow.

I'm taking out the one about the Marine being able to survive in low-oxygen environments and absorbing toxins due to the multi-lung, as I've always assumed both combatants should be considered to be in their armour.

I'm taking out the one about the Larramans cells, as that will be cancelled out by automatic biofoam injectors.

-The ability to perform continuous combat operations without sleep for a much longer time than normal before performance begins to erode, and to maintain conscious situational awareness even while sleeping. (Catalepsean Node)

-Immunity to toxins whether aerosol, contact/injected or ingested, as well as the ability to go briefly unconscious and carry out a rapid emergency detoxification of the body if something extremely dangerous has managed to bypass all the layers of defense. (Preomnor, Multi-lung, Oolitic Kidney)

-Chemical regulation of all bodily functions, maintaining the peak efficiency of both implanted and natural organs. (Oolitic Kidney)

-Improved hearing, including the ability to selectively filter out or enhance particular sounds, and immunity to nausea or disorientation from inner-ear disturbance. This includes immunity to the disorienting effects of explosions and other rapid changes in pressure. (Lyman's Ear)
-Ability to track by smell and taste like a bloodhound. (Neuroglottis)

I'm taking out the one about surviving in vacuum, and about the black carapace, as Mjolnir amour is also EVA rated, and features neural interlocking systems.

So in short; SPARTAN-IIs are, probably, faster to react than Space Marines are. That isn't certain because of the aforementioned hypnotherapy and mental conditioning, but let's assume they do. Assume that SPARTAN-II nervous signals just move faster through their bodies than those of Space Marines do; this gives them an edge in reaction times. How big an edge, we don't know, but let's assume it's pretty damn big; they're STILL going to get wrecked. That is the only advantage they possess, and the Space Marines have everything else they have plus a hell of a lot more.

The way I read it, the only true advantages a Marine has is that he can hear well, is immune to toxins (although how his body defines 'toxin' and I'll never know) and operate on extended hours due to the Catalepsean node.

Stregth is equal, IMO. I'd give the advantage to the Spartans in strength, given their feats in the literature, but that won't fly with you folks.

Their armour is equal, with an obvious agility and speed bonus to the Spartans.

Reaction time (and therefore, coupled with agility, a greater ranged skill) goes to the Spartans.

Survivability, I think, is a wash. Biofoam is just as efficient at stopping bleeding, which is all Larraman cells can do. Biofoam can also stabilise blood pressure, and keep pressure on wounds where necessary. Large wounds are more than either can handle. The ossified ribcage of the Marine is neat, but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard, and the extra protection it provides is limited.

Being able to hear and taste exceptionally is pretty cool (and not often picked up on in the fluff) but it also means you have to take your helmet off, and around sharpshooters like Spartans thats just a good way to get your head ventilated.

Yay, reasonable discussion!

I'm not going to quote-cut your post; I'll just talk about your points in order. I'll bold each argument to make the wall o' text easier to section up.

First: improved lactate recovery versus better oxygenation. I'm going to have to disagree with your analysis.

The reason is twofold; first, that it's not clear that lactate even hinders muscle contraction; and second, that even if it is a hindrance, preventing muscle fibers from going anaerobic (through increased oxygenation), or even slowing down the process, is a much more efficient way of increasing effective strength and endurance.

This is a case where Bungee actually tripped themselves up, because they put a little too much real science in their pseudoscience; since the Halo games have come out there's been further research on muscle fatigue, and it's been discovered that lactate both hinders muscular activity (by lowering the sensitivity of certain contractile tissues to a particular calcium ion) and also aids muscular activity by increasing the amount of calcium which is present, as well as neutralizing the limiting effects of potassium buildup! That being so, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the net result is a hindrance, the benefit is still at least partially counteracting itself, and it certainly won't be very efficient.

Space Marines use a much more straightforward and efficient method; they simply pour more oxygen into the muscular tissue to allow it to respirw freely even while working hard. For one thing, that by itself prevents the production of practically all of the byproducts of muscular exertion, since they can only be produced in an anaerobic environment; and for another, aerobic respiration is about nineteen times more efficient than anaerobic. That means that the SPARTAN MEI proteins cut in too late; they slow down lactate buildup, yes, but by the time lactate buildup is occurring at any speed your muscle fibers have already run out of oxygen, and as a consequence are now requiring nineteen times as much energy input to do the same amount of work. The Space Marine implants, by contrast, are going to work much more efficiently simply because they're preventing an anaerobic environment from ever occurring in the muscle tissue; that means that a Space Marine is going to be using a lot less energy to exert the same amount of force as a SPARTAN, which translates to greater strength, greater speed, and greater endurance.

In short, the SPARTAN enhancement is cutting in after deterioration has started and then slowing down the rate at which it multiplies; the Space Marine enhancement begins working sooner and prevents deterioration from ever occurring, or at least begins counteracting it at an earlier point in the process. This means that, even if a SPARTAN and a Space Marine have exactly the same peak strength and speed, a Space Marine is going to remain at peak functionality for far longer, and when he does begin to suffer from fatigue the effects are going to appear more slowly, than the SPARTAN will.

Functioning in a low-oxygen environment; Fair enough, in most cases it wouldn't matter. Do note, however, that in combination with the ability to breathe in a poisonous atmosphere this means that in some circumstances SPARTANs would be sharply time-limited (by the amount of breathable air their armor contains) while Space Marines would not; for instance, if SPARTANS and Space Marines were fighting on a polluted industrial world or in the aftermath of a virus-bombing the Space Marines could safely breathe the air, and the SPARTANs couldn't. This is a decided increase in tactical flexibility for a space-going military force, and it is a great benefit in general; but I agree, assuming we're talking about the two forces meeting on an Earth-like world, it's not very important.

Immunity to toxins: In a face-to-face combat situation, effectively all this does is render chemical and biological weapons ineffective. Mustard gas won't bother Space Marines much, for instance, even if you can manage to get it inside their armor. But since the SPARTANs have never demonstrated the use of that kind of weapon, I agree, that can be left out of this comparison.

Larraman's Organ versus biofoam injectors: Here I'm going to disagree again, though only conditionally.

Biofoam injectors are specifically called out as a temporary, emergency measure; they hold things in place temporarily and stop bleeding. In a brief engagement, I agree; they're just as good as Larraman cells are as a short-term solution, so if a Space Marine and a SPARTAN are just going to fight for an hour and then part ways, this is a wash.

However, I think if Space Marines and SPARTANs were to be heavily engaged with each other for any length of time, the comparison would rapidly get worse for the SPARTANs. The difference is that Larraman's Organ does NOT provide temporary first aid, it allows for a rapid and permanent healing process to begin at once. Biofoam is a first-aid measure that you use to stabilize somebody before medevac can get there. It's specifically called out as such, in fact. Biofoam breaks down and becomes useless after a few hours; if you haven't gotten surgical treatment by that time you're just as badly off as you were originally, unless you apply ANOTHER dose of biofoam.

Larraman's Organ, by contrast, simply supercharges the body's natural healing process. It literally creates instant scar tissue; as long as a bone isn't broken or a vital organ isn't badly traumatized, the wound is basically healed by the Larraman cells. The seal created by Larraman cells is biologically identical to the Space Marine's own flesh; if a Space Marine suffers a flesh wound, even a deep and damaging one, Larraman's Organ scars it over and within seconds, it's as if the injury is weeks old. No, it isn't an immediate, full repair, but it goes much further than simply filling the gash with anti-bacterial foam. A SPARTAN who suffers a severe flesh wound has to get surgical aid within a few hours, or the foam will degrade and he'll be just as badly wounded as ever; a Space Marine who suffers a severe flesh wound will recover rapidly and without help, not even needing a re-application of Larraman cells. This is what I meant when I said Space Marines are capable of "flat-out ignoring any wound less serious than a smashed bone or vital organ trauma".

Over a campaign of days, weeks or months, the Space Marines would gain a definite advantage in this area. Either a SPARTAN or a Space Marine will need medical treatment for a very serious wound, but the Space Marines will recover much more easily from any wound that isn't life-threatening. They are going to recover rapidly and without outside aid; a SPARTAN who suffers a flesh wound, by contrast, is going to need specialized help (which will aggravate the wound again; surgery is always traumatic to at least some extent) and will have a longer recovery time afterwards before he's back to full effectiveness. So over any extended time period Larraman's Organ is far more effective as field medicine than biofoam is, and the advantage will continue to build upon itself as long as the fighting lasts.

And as a final point, Space Marine armor also includes first-aid provisions, which I would assume are designed to function in conjunction with Larraman's Organ, probably by providing reinforcement to wounds too big or too serious (either chunks of missing flesh or shattered bones) for the Organ to repair alone, and likely also injecting copious amounts of stimulants. If nothing else, biological regeneration + technological medical help > technological medical help alone.

Speed, agility and reaction time: I don't think either agility or speed is necessarily in favor of the SPARTANs.

Speed-wise, as I pointed out above, the differences between Space Marine and SPARTAN muscle enhancements indicate that Space Marines have both greater muscular power AND longer endurance; a SPARTAN might beat a Space Marine in a sprint (though there isn't any evidence of that), but a long pursuit would certainly be won by the Space Marine, as he would be able to maintain high speed longer and with shorter rest periods. In combination with the effects of the Catalepsean Node, this means that Space Marines actually have significantly greater tactical mobility than SPARTANs.

In regards to agility and reaction time, as I pointed out, it's explicitly noted that Space Marines receive years of hypno-therapy and medical treatment designed to not only radically reduce their reaction time but also allow them a high degree of conscious control over their metabolisms and nervous systems. How that compares in effectiveness to the biotech modification that SPARTANs receive to their neural system, we simply don't know, but to discount it entirely doesn't seem reasonable. Furthermore, the connection provided by the Black Carapace to power armor is just as powerful as the Spartan Neural Interface (as it's described in almost exactly the same way), and all Astartes power armor apparently contains its own machine spirit/AI, which due to the Black Carapace can essentially read the Space Marine's mind and react with no delay at all to his desires. All this means that power armor does not slow the Space Marine down in the slightest; rather the 'muscles' of the armor will make him both faster and stronger, just as MJOLNIR armor does for SPARTANs.

MJOLNIR armor does seem to provide more flexibility and a wider range of motion; however, it necessarily accomplishes that by incorporating less actual armor, and so almost certainly provides less protection over certain areas. The chest and upper arms are the specific areas I'm thinking of, since for Space Marines they're protected by that very thick barrel-chest and MASSIVE PAULDRONS OF DOOM, which also serve double-duty by partially blocking line of fire to the Space Marines head from some angles.

Ossified ribcage: You say that "but anything that has punched through it's armour isn't going to be stopped by bone, no matter how hard", but I don't think that's true. The extra layer of bone will render some kinds of weapons entirely ineffective and force specific tactical decisions in order to penetrate it; and do please remember that this isn't bone as we know it. This is bone with the empty, latticework spaces filled with a ceramic armor compound, of the kind we use on main battle tanks.

Consider; the type of weapons that go through armor well are not actually the type of weapons that are very effective at killing people. If you want to cause a lot of damage to a person you use a fat, blunt, relatively slow round, which will shatter, tumble or simply expand inside the body and thus widen the channel it carves through flesh. That's why hollow-point rounds, which 'mushroom' after penetration, are sometimes called 'cop-killer' bullets; they're the most efficient way to cause the most damage possible to a human body.

The kind of bullet that punches through armor, by contrast, is a narrow, sharply-pointed round fired at the highest practical velocity. That's how you punch through a hard surface. However, that kind of bullet has a tendency to travel right through a person without actually doing much harm; it flies in a straight line, often without tumbling or being significantly deflected, and cuts a small, neat hole in one side and out the other. Low-caliber, high-velocity modern rifles often have this problem. They can get through modern body armor, but they don't have the stopping power to reliably disable the target.

The extra layer of armor that a Space Marine's ribcage forms thus creates a very difficult problem. If you're shooting at the center of mass, you first have to punch through the thickest part of the armor; that's going to take a round with very good penetration. You then have to punch through the ribs as well, which means you need a VERY high-velocity, small, needle-pointed round. . . but that bullet probably won't do lethal damage. And a Space Marine, even more than a human, is not going to be stopped by anything short of very serious trauma. Furthermore, even if you DO manage to punch a shot through and destroy some important organ, the Space Marine is still functional, because all those implants don't merely increase his physical performance, they also provide redundant copies of every vital organ that's behind that bone shield.

What all this means, in combination with the flesh-wound neutralizing effects of Larraman's Organ, is that in order for the basic ballistic weapons of the SPARTANs to inflict any serious damage at all they basically have to hit the groin or the head. Yes, SPARTANs are great shots, but their effective target area has now been radically reduced in size and limited to some of the most erratically-moving parts of the body; not to mention, Space Marines are extremely good shots themselves. The Space Marine can be fairly confident that wherever he's placing his bolter shells, they will do damage, even though against MJOLNIR armor it may well require multiple hits; effectively, this makes a Space Marine much less likely to be severely injured or killed by a SPARTAN than the SPARTAN is to be injured or killed by him.


So, in conclusion: Halo is trying to use pseudo-science to sound at least barely plausible to modern listeners, while 40k just goes ahead and flat-out tells us that Space Marines are t3h best!!!!1!

When you compare the two, a SPARTAN is a very tough, very fast, very skilled soldier with tremendous strength and extremely high-tech weaponry and armor, allowing him to accomplish things that no normal human could ever do and live through things that would kill any normal human.

A Space Marine is all that, with a bag of chips. He possesses superior strength, speed, and endurance, is nearly unkillable and capable of recovering rapidly from practically anything that DOES have a chance at killing him, not to mention he's been brainwashed and tortured for years until he's a psychotic killing machine that cares nothing for fear or pain. He has conscious control over his normally-unconscious bodily functions; which means, among other things, that he can flood his own system with adrenaline at will. On top of everything else, he can also go for up to two weeks without sleeping at all, and if he wants to sleep he can do so while simultaneously standing guard. He's the classic super-soldier but turned up to eleven, and then he tore the knob off and ate it, because he can do THAT too.

Why would the Spartan aim for the groin?
The head I understand, but the genitals? I don't get it...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would the Spartan aim for the groin?
The head I understand, but the genitals? I don't get it...

Because, as I said, the chest and upper torso have that great big mess of interlocking, reinforced bone plates between the bullets and the squishy bits. The groinal and lower stomach area doesn't.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would the Spartan aim for the groin?
The head I understand, but the genitals? I don't get it...

Because, as I said, the chest and upper torso have that great big mess of interlocking, reinforced bone plates between the bullets and the squishy bits. The groinal and lower stomach area doesn't.

What vital organs are located in the groin area (well, apart from the obvious...if they are even vital to a SM anyway)?
I guess it would slow him down, but still, the laraman things would repair the damage, wouldn't they?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What vital organs are located in the groin area (well, apart from the obvious...if they are even vital to a SM anyway)?
I guess it would slow him down, but still, the laraman things would repair the damage, wouldn't they?

There aren't any. That's the point of the ribcage modification.

Aiming low would basically mean much better odds of a hit (scoring a headshot against an evading target is damn near impossible, to the point that most militaries actively train their soldiers NOT to aim for the head) but those hits will generally not be very damaging against a Space Marine. With a powerful enough weapon, though, you could cause damage to the tendons or pelvis, which could cripple their mobility. At the very least, it's better than missing altogether.

Edit: Holy crap, I didn't realize until I scrolled up and re-read it just how massive an essay I just posted.

TREMBLE, HERETICS! THE SERVANTS OF THE IMMORTAL EMPEROR HAVE COME, AND WE SHALL CRUSH YOUR PATHETIC ARGUMENTS BENEATH HIS HOLY WALLS OF TEXT!