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What is the reasoning for the slayers being Mercenaries instead of Order (which is the keyword they have)? Is it because of the fluff? While I think it is a fluffy and reasonable decision it doesn't exactly set a good precedent for future releases that may be a bit more vague.

It was based on the wording on Games Workshop's website that they are mercenaries who will work for any of the Grand Alliances.
On one hand it's odd that they wrote that, since in AoS raw any faction can ally with any other (which as you know is not the case of the PPC), but since it was so obviously written out I thought there'll probably some more about it in the book.

Vulkite Berserkers should become more expensive after 20 models. I personally think they should start at 11 pts and go 15 pts @20 i base this by comparing them to Gutter runner's who has nearly same dmg out put, worse save mechanics and a gimmicky deployment method and come in 16 pts each.

as for things like assassins and fanactics there should be a maximum number you can hide in small units, like 10 gobbo's can hide 1 fanactic where as 30 could hide 3, some other thinjgs should be thought of two as i saw a stormfiend reach in his pocket and retrieve deathmaster sniktch out of it! lol

Attilla wrote:
It was based on the wording on Games Workshop's website that they are mercenaries who will work for any of the Grand Alliances.

Ah, makes sense then.

like 10 gobbo's can hide 1 fanactic where as 30 could hide 3

That seems like a solid idea to me.

Hettar wrote:
Vulkite Berserkers should become more expensive after 20 models. I personally think they should start at 11 pts and go 15 pts @20 i base this by comparing them to Gutter runner's who has nearly same dmg out put, worse save mechanics and a gimmicky deployment method and come in 16 pts each.

I think you're right that there should be a higher cost / model after 20, as they become very resilient then.
As for their base cost, if you take the ranged options and pair of axes it puts them at 11 pts and gives them about the same damage and base save as Gutter Runners.
But then we take a look at their abilities:

- Gutter Runners have a special deployment, which may or may not be of much use. They can also run and shoot, which with their high movement gives them a very long threat range.
- The Berzerkers have an extra save of 6+ down to 4+.

In their base cost, I do believe the Gutters win out, but maybe not by 5 pts / model, in which case I think we should look at lowering their cost instead of raising the Berzerkers base cost. And at larger numbers the Berzerkers resilience will begin to shine, and that's where we should increase point costs properly IMHO.

Hettar wrote:as for things like assassins and fanactics there should be a maximum number you can hide in small units, like 10 gobbo's can hide 1 fanactic where as 30 could hide 3, some other thinjgs should be thought of two as i saw a stormfiend reach in his pocket and retrieve deathmaster sniktch out of it! lol

Sounds like a good idea to somehow limit the amount depending on the parent unit's size. 1/10 sounds maybe alittle to low, but what do you think of 2 fanatics for every 10 models?

just get hit a few times multiple fanatics at once and you decide lol, these little buggers are really powerful and even by fluff standards come in small amounts, they can start becoming a good tool is instead of a wrecking ball! i Vote 1 per 10, and hidden hero's to be 1 per unit if it dosnt already state it.

Quoting from other thread:

Attilla wrote:
So when we get down to setting the points of the formations

So when Attilla said that, I assume he meant this:

Wow Ninthmusketeer seeing that you are so great and awesome it would be super sweet if you could post the points for some battallions!

Thanks for the authentic praise! And who would I be to turn down such a factual request?

Let's kick things off with the free battalions for Chaos. Again, leaning towards the higher end of point costing since they are a 'side-order' of army building. If you include the required units for a battalion warscroll in your army, you can receive the battalion's benefits by purchasing it for the cost indicated below. A given warscroll selection can only be part of one battalion.

[Beastmen] Bullgor Stampede - 700 pts. This needs to be priced very very high because of the extra attack potential. Presumably the Doombull will be using his command ability here, meaning each wound roll of 5+ (4+ for the Ghorgon) generates two extra attacks. Wound rolls for those attacks generate extra attacks, and so on.

[Beastmen] Furious Brayherd - 200 pts. A powerful bonus but with a limited range, also contingent on the characters being alive.

[Beastmen] Ungor Raiders Ambush - 300 pts. This is a very potent deployment benefit and the potential hit roll bonus has a great deal of synergy with the unit size benefit to re-roll hits of 1 or 2.

[Daemons] Cohort of Khorne - 75 pts. The benefits are nice, but very situational.

[Daemons] Cohort of Nurgle - 150 pts. Solid bonuses, but the first is a bit unreliable and the second is redundant on half of the battalion since Plaguebearers will likely be getting that benefit from their locus anyway.

[Daemons] Cohort of Slaanesh - 325 pts. For the player who owns a lot of daemonette models this battalion is gold, if dependent on what your opponent has.

[Daemons] Cohort of Tzeentch - 750 pts. Probably the best battalion in the game.

[Bloodbound] Ravagers of Ruin Keep - Free. Having to take the component units and terrain of the battalion in exchange for mediocre benefits justifies the cost.

[Skaven] Eshin Clawpack - 200 pts. The first benefit is good but doesn't affect the assassin, the second benefit only affects the assassin.

[Skaven] Moulder Clawpack - 200 pts. A bit heavy on the requirements, but solid bonuses.

[Skaven] Skreet Verminkin's Horde - 50 pts. Significant requirements, a double-edge benefit for the characters and a troop benefit that is redundant with the banner bearer you will probably be taking either way.

[Skaven] Verminus Clawpack - 275 pts. The bonuses are good and have really good synergy with the models in the battalion.

[Pestilens] Pestilent Clawpack - 325 pts. The first benefit has good synergy with the wound roll bonus from the priest and the second bonus is quite potent because you can buy a terrain warscroll as well to get control over what the pack-nest will be.

[Tamurkhan's Horde] Sons of the Maggot Lord - 175 pts. How much benefit you get is largely determined by what your opponent brings.

[Tamurkhan's Horde] The Leaping Pox - 100 pts. Mediocre benefits that do not have good synergy with each other.

[Legion of Azgorh] Blackshard Warhost - 275 pts. Good benefits on models you would likely be taking together anyway.

[Legion of Azgorh] Artillery Train - 200 pts. The trick here is that an Iron Daemon can haul the other warmachines, allowing them to move without counting as having done so.

[Warriors of Chaos] Chaos Warband - 175 pts. Very nice rewards, but unreliable and they won't kick in until partly through the game.

[Warriors of Chaos] Marauder Raiders - 175 pts. Somewhat situational, but solid benefits overall.


[edit] Adjusted Legion of Azgorh Artillery Train from 225 to 200 after first-hand experience.

Wow, Ninthmusketeer seeing that you are so great and awesome it would be super sweet if you could post the points for some battallions!

Now get on with the rest, you slob!

(As with the terrain, it will take me some time to get around to actually look into this more closely, but I have faith in your work with this!)

By the way, the terrain doc should be finished for uploading on the blog tomorrow

Grimbok wrote:
Hi Attilla

Nice work on the PPC system! I play in the same group as Andreas 2.0 and we are slowly building a player base in our club and it's nice to have a good system as a framework.

TERRIBLY sorry for the very late reply, Grimbok, and welcome to the PPC thread!

Grimbok wrote:

I played your new mission Schemes of War the other day. 1000 points of my Stormcasts vs. Tzeentch chaos. It worked really well! The three zones worked well. The "breakthrough" victory condition was never close. We are fairly new to AoS, so we rolled only once on schemes. With three victory conditions and two rolls it's quite a complex mission. I got assassinate and he got endure (the same character). So it came down to hunting him down while dominating the zones. It spread the troops out, which is nice. Avoiding i big centre battle should be the objective of all missions I think.
So the mission basicly works. I would suggest that you maybe cut the "breakthough" element and maybe one scheme (or one of them). There is a LOT going on.

Glad you enjoyed it! As you are not the only person to say it's complex, we'll probably make it less so for the next update. Since we've played it alot ourselves we've probably gotten blind to its complexity ourselves.

Grimbok wrote:


Judicators with X-bow. Good, but pricey. I think in retrospect I would have made mine with bows (but the X-bows look cool), just because of range. The main issue for Stormcasts is the lack of ranged weapons and slow movement. You need to threaten wizards etc. Im leaning towards bows beeing better because of internal balancing (no ranged warmachines etc). But it's too early to tell if X-bow should have a reduction or bows simply an increase in cost.

Procecutors with hammers are ok for the price. Much needed movement. I run only three and they seem underwhelming, but I think they will perform better with a few extra models. I will take them no matter what, just to hunt down warmachines and casters, that I can't reach otherwise.

The Lord Relictor is not worth 90 points I think. You raised him to 110 point. I can't really understand that. He has been underwhelming in every one of my games. He has some major issues. Low movement combined with only 12" power. 12" in hero phase and move 4" is really piss poor. Healing storm is nice but difficult to deliver consistantly on Dracoth Lord. Lightning storm is just an arcane bolt, but with 6" less range which is massively weaker in game. The main problem, he is not (other than healing) giving anything unique to the army. No good synergy like Lord Castellant, Vexilor og Heraldor or the threat of the Venator. I've used the Venator. Much much much better choice for the same points. Venator patches a massive gap in the stormcast army, with that range 30 bow. It's really a no brainer. 80-85 point would fit better IMO.
Grimbok

Thanks for all the feedback! Some of it (about the Relictor) has been replied to already and I'll just add that many people have been using him to debuff enemies, but also alot to keep the Dracoth and Celestant-Prime alive, and by doing so making sure they do tons of dmg (especially the Prime). That's why an increase in points was asked for and done.

The X-Bow Judicators might warrant a slight price drop, just because of their short range. With that range, you can *almost* get a pure melee beatstick unit instead. The Bowmen on the other hand, provide very long range support and are no slouches in melee either. I'll add it to considerations for next update!

The Prosecutors are a wild card. I've lost count of how many times my opponent has destroyed my warmachines with them, but other games they don't really perform at all and get blasted to bits. I would appreciate if you would give more input after some more games (as with all units of course!).

Cheers!

I've played Schemes of War again, as is, except only one roll on the table. It's fine that way. Two rolls complicate things too much IMO. Otherwise a very solid mission.

As for Stormcasts:
The bows are fine with that range. Better than crossbows for sure. Range alone is the big difference.

I see the Lord Relictor is good with the Prime. I still can't see him over 100 points though.

I think Procecutors with Javelins as quite weak, compared with hammers. Trident is cheap though. Maybe + 10 for trident and a lower base cost for the unit? Hammer Procecutors are ok, very fast. Maybe priced ok, I don't know yet. I still take then, as I need the speed...



Grimbok

Have you included the part where they do 2 damage per shot at 9" or more? Plus the part where the trident goes on the unit leader for 2 attacks with rend -1.

I agree that javelins are quite weak compared to hammers. They really don't want to get within 9" of the enemy with their bad melee attacks. I'm just not sure if they are worth even less than 30 points. They do seem to be better than most cavalry like black knights (25p) and reiksguard knights (24) to name a few, but honestly not by alot. It seems like a tweak of 1-2 points at the most. On the other hand we have outriders (29p), who serve kinda the same role. I might actually be inclined to pick the outrider over the javeliner. Food for thought at least.

I still agree about the Relictor though. I play undead, and my Tomb King for 110p seems like the better choice in almost every way (I do use him as my general, which is part of it, but still). It wouldn't even be a hard choice for me if I could chose - TK every day. So yeah, I'd like to see the relictor put back around the 100 points again.

[edit] Nevermind, I'll just agree to disagree on the Relictor.

The javelin prosecutors seem like a solid ranged unit to me, with the added benefit that they won't roll over in melee to a type warmachine hunting unit. They can do quite well without ever seeing melee, they simply don't need to in order to deal damage to key targets. I have seen the hammer prosecutors have more trouble because they are built for melee yet die very easily (for their points) when they get there without doing all that much damage in return. I don't really see a strong place for the hammer prosecutors in the army (or the alliance) compared to the javelin ones. I would say that its the hammer guys that need a points decrease, though I do think that in both unit's cases more of the point burden should be shifted to the special weapon - making it +10 to upgrade while reducing the model cost a few points seems like a great idea to me.

I agree somewhat. It's all sbout the trident. A javelin is a bit better at long range, but a bit worse within 9". And they will mostly fire witin 9". And they are very bad in melee. Hammers are way better all round. I would up the price on the trident to at least +10, and reduce the normal javelins to 25. That way a unit would go from 105 to 95 point. And keep a hammer unit at 115, because they are actually good in melee. Then it's a choice... with a 20 point difference. Probably still would choose the hanmers from a cost efficiency point of view, but it's more of a real choice. And the javelin models look pretty, love that spartan look.

Grimbok

PS You really wan't your javelins in melee, can't avoid it. They are not good enough at shooting to stay at range and just shoot. You need to shoot and charge from turn 2.

Interesting discussion on the Javelin Prosecutors! Looks like there is currently a consensus that both them and the Hammers (but especially Javelins) should cost less but have their special weapons cost more. I'm adding this to considerations for next update!

The Relictor will of course be open for more thoughts and discussions. I'll review him again when March is getting closer and next update is due.

Grimbok wrote:
PS You really wan't your javelins in melee, can't avoid it. They are not good enough at shooting to stay at range and just shoot. You need to shoot and charge from turn 2.

I am not seeing why this is true, when I fight against them they do stay at range and just shoot. Their damage output is not great, but 18" is plenty enough range for them to pick out support characters with only 5 wounds, especially when they have a 12" fly move to get into position. Also note that even if they are in melee they can still shoot at something more than 9" away; they aren't locked into targeting whatever is in front of them. I find it hard to believe that even when in melee they consistently have absolutely no targets between 9-18" away. As someone who plays against Stormcast, I see javelins and think about how I will allocate my forces to deal with them. I see hammers and just shrug because I know that when they hit melee they will be the squishiest target available and die quickly (literally every other stormcast unit short judicators is harder to kill). But maybe its the type of armies I play, what do you see the hammer prosecutors getting used for?

Hey guys,
First off ninth, great job on terrain prices they are very acceptable. Secondly any word if there is a point cost on the dread saurian ?

@Ninth
I use my hammer procecutors to hunt characters and warmachines if possible or to outflank opponents, engaging and "locking" units to get other units to grab objectives og get the right charges. Well, so far they seem underwhelming except for their great speed and threat range, but that makes opponent think more about the placement of their characters, which is nice I suppose. They are ok in combat, hitting and wounding on 3+ reroll 1's to hit. So charging weak opponent they fare better (ranged troops for example).

When are you gonna make the rules for Stormcast battalions by the way, looking forward to it.


Grimbok

TheDanseMacabre wrote:
Hey guys,
Secondly any word if there is a point cost on the dread saurian ?

I'll add the Saurian tomorrow, mate! I'll also check if there's anything else from FW I've missed to add.

Grimbok wrote:
@Ninth
When are you gonna make the rules for Stormcast battalions by the way, looking forward to it.

I think he got angry because I called him a slob....

Unfortunately the Stormcast battalions aren't coming anytime soon, since they are pay-blocked :(

So after a few games with the gaunt summoner and realm gate, I believe that they both need a point boost ( the book for the summoner up to 100, and the realm gate up to 125). The ability to summon 100 points automatically with no chance to dispel is very powerful in itself, and I have found the realm gate to be extremely powerful with its ability to let a unit outflank.
food for thought
-Danse

Being the person on the receiving end of those, I would second Danse on the realmgate - the ability to bring units in 6" from the board edge without a minimum range from the enemy is powerful, as are the potential for buffs from the gate itself.

I think the book does need a points increase but maybe not to 100, the 75-85 range would be better I think.

Thanks Danse and Ninth, I'm adding it to the list of tweaks for the next update. Please keep me updated if you play more games with the Gaunt/Gate about what increase in pts would be best.

Hey Ninth. Don't worry about pay blocking, I can lend you any books you need to get battalions done!

Did someone say Order battalion point costs?

[Stormcast] Host Azyric - 500 pts. The "From the Heavens they Come" rule can only summon up to 100 pts of Stormcast models.

[Stormcast] Skyborne Slayers - 350 pts. No battleshock on Stormcasts isn't nearly as useful it is on most armies.

[Brettonians] Defenders of the Realm - 125 pts. Good synergy with the bonuses to wound rolls on the charge.

[Brettonians] Peasant Militia - 300 pts. Men-at-Arms hit on 2s if they are 30+ and a Paladin is nearby, and this battalion lets them reroll 1s.

[Dark Elves] Blood Cult - 300 pts. The benefit to Witch Elf units is significant, and lets them take out armored targets they would otherwise have problems with.

[Dark Elves] Exiled Warhost - 600 pts. Sorry DElf players, the bleakswords option drove the cost way up due to extra attack chaining potential on the charge.

[Dwarfs] Artillery Battery - 125 pts. Decent benefits but weak synergy with warmachines' battlefield use.

[Dwarfs] Clan Throng - 200 pts. The battleshock benefit is not as great because of unit banners and the BSB character, but reroll 1s to hit is solid.

[High Elves] Altran Stormriders Host - 125 pts. The hero benefit requires that the very squishy high elf mage stays relatively close to the flying prince, and the bravery benefit is a bit weak because the units will likely be rocking bravery 8 from their banners.

[High Elves] Dragon Host - 400 pts. Giving all three dragon characters re-roll 1s to hit is powerful to begin with, combined with the potential of the dragonfire ability to obliterate anything it likes.

[High Elves] Glittering Host - 275 pts. Basically you get to pick two units rather than one as your first pick of each combat phase, plus a good battleshock boost.

[Lizardmen] Saurus Host - 200 pts. Solid bonuses, though ignoring battleshock on bravery 10 units may not always be useful.

[Lizardmen] Skink Patrol - 425 pts. Deep-striking ripperdactyls with +1 to wound will destroy whatever they charge that turn.

[Sylvaneth] Guardians of the Deepwood - 225 pts. The real benefit here is not the underwhelming deployment ability as much as the advantage of being able to but down the Wyldwoods anywhere on the battlefield (as opposed to your table half with the normal PPC terrain warscroll rules) and THEN deploy into them.

[Empire] Brotherhood of Knights - 175 pts. The charge bonus is OK, the bravery bonus is nice, and the requirements are very easy.

[Empire] State Troop Detachment - 375 points. State troops are why PPC says attacks always miss on a 1.

[Wood Elves] Wanderer Host - 150 points. A nice deployment option but the other benefit is extremely situational.

Well done sir, well done!

Alrighty, I got some proxy-experience behind the wheel of a few fyreslayer units and some of the legion of azgorh ones.

Empire Cannon - Not strictly related to my last game, but it probably needs to go up to 150 pts. High damage at high range, and a particularly powerful engineer buff.

Vulkite Beserkers - I just want to say good job costing these, it seems like a really solid value (for reference, I ran a unit of 40). The horn should cost more, however, probably 10 or 15 pts since it lets you reroll just one of the charge dice which is generally more advantageous than an outright reroll of both.

Auric Hearthguard - So it turns out letting them get charged by Demigryphs is not a good idea. But again, solid costing.

Battlesmith - He doesn't have a cost yet, but I would recommend 175 pts, or even 200. The buff he hands out while alive is amazing and then he gives out an awesome buff when he dies.

Legion of Azgorh Daemonsmith - Should probably cost 125 base. He's an engineer, a level 1 wizard with a solid (if a bit situational) spell, and a neat little once per game ability. The daemonforged weapon upgrade should cost more too, probably 10 pts.

Deathshrieker Rocket - I would say it should go up to 135 points. This is because unlike many warmachines it doesn't have a vulnerable crew that can be targeted separately.

K'Daai Fireborn - Should probably cost 150 points for the minimum 3, adding extra for 30 pts/each. Their mortal wound ability doesn't scale with unit size so as the points stand now there is little reason to take anything more than the minimum.

Lots of useful insights and feedback there! I'm putting them all on the list to check out properly!

Some experiences after a local event.

On the stormcasts:
Lord on Dracoth- seem costed just fine.
Lord Relictor-situationel, still a bit overcosted imo. 100 points makes more sense.
Retributors- still bad ass, not undercosted. Maybe a tad more, 40 points? Absolutely the best unit by far!
Judicators with x-bows- thunderbolt is fine. Unit as such is bad, really horrificly bad at that cost. No more than 20 per x-bow, that bad. Bows I don't know yet, they seem very useful.
Liberators- fine I suppose
Procecutors w. Hammers- still not the bomb, seems weak in real game.

Basicly Ok costed overall, some minor ups and downs that equal out more or less except judicators w. X-bow. They are gak. Really...gak.


Grimbok

Thanks Grimbok for the valuable input! Adding all of this to the list as well!

The X-bow judicators will definately be lowered, the only question is by how much