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Keep up the good work.

On a more generel note, I've been looking at some wood elves lately and it seem that PPC in generel has high point costs for unit upgrades like unit leaders, banners, horns etc. I think they, if anything should be a little undercosted. It would be a pity to see people not taking unit leaders, pretty banners etc. Then it just becomes like 40 K, where no one takes veteran sergeants ets. Boring and unispiring modelwise.

Things like Stormcast Primes, Wood Elf banners etc, that often gives a very minor bonus should be a little undercosted. Rather have it auto include than missing. Example, Wild Riders, not an expensive unit, but leader cost 10 for one extra attack with a normal weapon, 10 for a bravery banner (not that important on that small unit) and 10 for the horn. Maybe the horn is ok at 10, but the other two are way too expensive. Why not just + 5 for each of them. They are not that game changing.

Same with my stormcasts, why am I paying +10 for my hammer procecutor prime for one extra 3+/3+ no rend attack? If the great weapon is that powerful with one extra attack, price the weapon higher.

It's not just those two armies (I haven't looked deep in other races warscrolls), but I think it's a generel issue in many factions. Make people want to take these minor upgrades, it looks better on the table and adds flavor.


Grimbok

Grimbok wrote:
Keep up the good work.

On a more generel note, I've been looking at some wood elves lately and it seem that PPC in generel has high point costs for unit upgrades like unit leaders, banners, horns etc. I think they, if anything should be a little undercosted. It would be a pity to see people not taking unit leaders, pretty banners etc. Then it just becomes like 40 K, where no one takes veteran sergeants ets. Boring and unispiring modelwise.

Things like Stormcast Primes, Wood Elf banners etc, that often gives a very minor bonus should be a little undercosted. Rather have it auto include than missing. Example, Wild Riders, not an expensive unit, but leader cost 10 for one extra attack with a normal weapon, 10 for a bravery banner (not that important on that small unit) and 10 for the horn. Maybe the horn is ok at 10, but the other two are way too expensive. Why not just + 5 for each of them. They are not that game changing.

Same with my stormcasts, why am I paying +10 for my hammer procecutor prime for one extra 3+/3+ no rend attack? If the great weapon is that powerful with one extra attack, price the weapon higher.

It's not just those two armies (I haven't looked deep in other races warscrolls), but I think it's a generel issue in many factions. Make people want to take these minor upgrades, it looks better on the table and adds flavor.

I agree overall - I see a lot of unit champions costing 10 points in particular when they probably shouldn't be. Something to keep in mind is that 1 extra attack on a model that normally has 3 attacks is not worth as much as 1 extra attack on a model that normally has 1. That said, with AoS it is important to actually look at what the champions/banners/musics do because some are worth much more (I still think the Enrapturing Standard for Hellstriders should be 25 points) because ideally we want it to be a choice where some units will have command and some won't, and others will just have partial. I think this is a spot where Attila very much relies on players to inform him.

With the Stormcast champions specifically, however, its a matter of the weapon upgrade being on the champion. Increasing the price of the weapon upgrade makes it overcosted to put on a regular model, so I think PPC opts to assume that if you are buying the champion you are paying for the weapon upgrade on him, which IMO is a pretty accurate assumption. The alternative is to vary the cost of the weapon upgrade, which is probably more trouble than it's worth.

Some notes from the latest tournament. I played death, but I don't have much to say in that area actually. The tomb king, could perhaps stand to be 10 points more expensive, while grave guard never seem to perform well for their points (1-2 points reduction, would probably do it). But other than that, Death seems to be one of the more refined ppc lists.

Elves however, are a perfectly different matter. All three faction seem to have some overpriced elite infantry. Black guard are good for their points while executioners are probably 1 point too expensive. I think their ability is good, but its not that good, seeing as you still need to wound after the to-hit roll of 6.

Witch elves are just plain bad. Their survivability is just good enough for to field at 9 points each. I would probably vote for a 2 point reduction, although that is a huge cut.

Shades, shadow warriors and waywatchers all seem a tad overpriced.

The flamespyre phoenix seems 10-20 points too expensive while the frostheart phoenix seems equally underpriced.

I'll look more into the elves in the near future.

Another thing we had the luck of seeing this tournament was an army of Fyreslayers. Super cool models and rules, but the points need a tweak here and there.

The Hearthguard Berzerkers and Auric Hearthguard both seemed a bit too cheap. Berzerkers by a point or two, and the flamethrower dudes by 2-3 points. The magmadroth variants all seemed WAY overpriced though. Most other monsters over 300 or even 400 points outperform them by quite alot. I think we could have them reduced 30 points each and do some more playtesting from there without breaking the game. The Magmadroth with a runeson never really did more than a giant or similar monsters, which IMO comes down to its 12 wound profile. It is just super easy to focus it down. I did it myself with a wight king and 3 spirit hosts.

Keep it up guys. The game is getting more and more fun by the minute ;D

Thank you everyone!!

I'm keeping my replies short, because my focus right now is on finishing the Warmachine custom warscrolls. The next two weeks I'll be off on a trip, but once I get back there will be a week or two of gathering all input provided before making the next big update at the beginning of 2016-03.

So please discuss and keep providing the invaluable input you do, and I'll get into it properly when I get back.

Cheers!

Destruction called and wanted their battalions, so here we go!

[Ogres] Beastclaw Avalanche - 300 pts. Its main bonus does only apply on charges, but man is it a nice bonus. The potential for up-front damage before the enemy can really do much in a game is very high. The other benefit is a bit of icing on the cake.

[Ogres] Gutbuster Wartribe - 175 pts. Another bonus-on-the-charge, but not nearly as good. And the requirements are a bit steep.

[O&G] Bonesplittas Big Mob - 375 pts. Now this is a nice battalion. The main bonus is very powerful and the second is a nice extra.

[O&G] Great Gitmob - 200 pts. Good bonuses but not totally reliable, and having to take three separate goblin units to get them is a pain.

[O&G] Great Moonclan - 300 pts. A nice bonus, though this avoids a much higher cost because (to my knowledge) the component units don't have access to hit roll bonuses.

[O&G] Greenskinz Big Mob - 175 pts. Run+charge is pretty useful on all those footslogging orcs, and the once per game ability is nice, but overall the bonuses aren't great.

[O&G] Ironjaws Big Mob - 250 pts. Good bonuses with pretty easy requirements.

[O&G] Spiderfang Venom Mob - 150 pts. The wound roll bonus has bad synergy with the attacks it benefits and the battalion requirements are steep, though the battleshock benefits are OK.


Something to note on all of the battalion costs; I am assuming armies roughly in the 1500-2500 point range; going above that many of these battalions quickly become worth much more than listed. However, given that balance tends not to be a main priority in games that massive anyway I do not see it as a huge issue.

Dísregard what I said about executioners. They should stay at their point cost for now. I read their rules wrong.

I just received an e-mail from GW providing me with rules for a store league for AOS (created by the good folks at Dragon's Lair), an event from one of the Warhammer World's game days, and the SDK point system. I was disappointed that the SDK list is being passed out by GW instead of the PPC. Do you all think that because GW seems to have endorsed SDK that it will become the de-facto balancing tool in tournaments? It is still only a bunch of point lists with no scenario or rules guidelines.

I don't have any concern over SDK becoming a de-facto balancing system; it's bad. We are talking a system that puts a GUO at 432 points while Skarbrand is 377... for starters. This is on top of not dealing with any of AoS' game-breaking issues. Players aren't going to bother using it because it's no better than simply doing wounds-count and trying to bring something appropriate to what your opponent is bringing.

I honestly think the best thing the community can do is what we have already been doing; continually balancing and updating PPC while expanding its coverage. Because once people try it they are going to be hooked, and I think PPC will gradually get more players due to that. PPC isn't drumming up a lot of activity right now because AoS isn't drumming up a lot of activity right now.

I think SDK is OK. Running our lists for our last event through it, and it more or less is equal points to PPC (very close), so I think both systems are on to something...of course some are off, but so are some of PPC points. PPC is the only system rating Celestant Prime more than 50-60 % higher than Dracoth, actually more than the double. That is off I think, even for Stormcast, where the points seem solid more or less.

SDK has issues with options, The Vexilor is cheap, and no difference in which banner you take, but those banners are VERY different, one is meh, ok, other is OMG good. In SDK you would always take the good one, in PPC you pay an extra 65 point to upgrade. That is a real choice. Sometimes I would take the one, some times the other.

So for basic stuff SDK is fine. PPC is very close, but better when it comes down to very different options. And it's easy to give feedback.


Grimbok

I am very concerned. I know that when GW circulates game modifications, most stores, and hence most tournaments take them seriously. Here is one example of how it effects the tournament scene. Frontline Games, the sponsors of the Las Vegas Open, arguably the second largest GW tournament behind Adepticon, are using SDK and making battle report videos using SDK. A lot of the people who play in the Las Vegas Open also play in the Broadside Bash, and I believe that I will have to take into consideration the fact that players who are used to SDK will want to stick with it. While SDK does have things that may need to be worked on, it also has benefits to tournament players. For instance, most tournament players are used to fielding 2000 point fantasy lists. It has been the norm for 20 years. In SDK you can field Skarbrand or Archaeon Everchosen in a 2000 point list. PPC you cannot. If PPC grew organically, then maybe it would become the norm, but with GW passing out SDK, I don't think that will happen. As far as not dealing with game breaking issues, SDK is not a rules set, just a points list, so stores will have to decide what rules to modify/enforce. Certainly GW knows about PPC, Azhyr Comp, and all of the others and someone decided they liked SDK the best (probably because it's not a rules modification system, just a point costing system). I am bummed out because I have been involved in PPC, and I think it is a great system. But having said that, I don't know what math the points in PPC are based on. I have never seen a breakdown of how to cost a unit. SDK has the math laid out so that players can point cost units as they are introduced without having to wait for someone to do it for them. This is appealing, even if it may be flawed. I asked Ninth how he point costed the battalions and terrain. He basically eyeballed it and set values he thought were appropriate. This works in a small community where everyone is on the same page. It is also the way I suspect GW used to point cost things, and without math involved it usually gets broken.

I'm not sure if it actually matters who uses what system and why. I wont tell other people what should be the standard of AoS because I don't see a point in having one system to rule them all. SDK has a solid math system that seems to be quite close to ppc, and that makes it super compatible if you ever wanted to attend a tournament with the opposite system. That alone is enough for me to keep working on a system that I feel looks more like "my kind of game".

You could probably do a cost-benefit analysis of ppc and look at the amount of people using it vs. The time it takes to create it, but to me, that doesn't really matter. As long as AoS is interesting to me, I will keep spending time on ppc - at least until something better comes along, and SDK is not that. So I don't really see a reason to be concerned. SDK takes nothing away from ppc, and vice versa.

On the subject of math - the reason I got into ppc in the first place was because it looked pretty damn close to a mathematical model Guitarasmus and I spend a huge amount of time on. Ppc was so close that it was kinda pointless to keep working on the other system seperately from this. I can't really speak for Attilas initial model, but I find it hard to believe that there is no math behind it. And it seems like SDK has somewhat the same idea too.

Lets hope SDK does extremely well so that everyone will want to play warhammer. AoS is gaining strength in my local club, but we absolutely wouldn't mind a surge of new players. They can always be introduced to ppc after that.

Maybe I am over-optimistic and SDK will take over, but I 'll keep playing and contributing to PPC comp regardless. SDK is more of the same; meh balance without addressing glaring issues. If I am going to deal with sub-par balance anyway I'll just play something that doesn't need to be comped. The way I see it, AoS needs a comp to be playable, so I'll stick with the best one for me.

On the note of comp-tributions; Death Battalions!

[Tomb Kings] Royal Legion of Chariots - 500 pts. The combo potential with Righteous Smiting for chaining attacks drives up the price.

[Tomb Kings] Tomb Legion - 175 pts. The bonuses are nice but the requirements are heavy for what you get.

[Vampire Counts] Charnel Pit Carrion - 325 pts. Combined with a terrain warscroll this can give a huge area of extra attacks, and the second bonus is a nice little boost as well.

[Vampire Counts] Deathrattle Horde - 50 pts. Its a moderately high requirement for a bonus that simply isn't very good on most of the component units, and the auto-4" run isn't very good either.

Hey Attilla


Some more feedback on the Stomcast Eternals. Only on models I have and use.

Lord Celestant on Dracoth: I think he is fine at 210 points or there abouts. Under 200 is too cheap, more than 225 is too close to big monsters. His command ability is awesome, but I have a feeling it's not that good considering battleshock and multi wound creatures. The Liberators are somewhat vulnerable without, but they are kind of cheap anyways. You need to lose two whole paladins (6 wounds) and then you only lose a guy on a 6. The army is very hero heavy, so I don't think his command ability is as important as we all think. So I would keep him at 210.

Lord Relictor: Good, sometimes. A bit situationel. I still think he is a bit too expensive. He might be better in bigger games, with more targets. We play 1000 points, so it's more spread out on the board. I think 100 points seems better as a start (still at the high end for me).

Liberators: Seems fine at that cost. There is always the prime and great weapon issue. I run my prime without, so the greatweapon seems a tad expensive, but it's a good weapon.

Retributors: They are deadly in every battle, no exceptions. They seem better that protectors. Haven't fielded my protectors yet, but on paper I would take retributors every time, except perhaps versus a monster heavy army. I think the prime is a bit too costly (look at my post on unit upgrades earlier, I think they should all be reduced). But maybe up the cost of the retributors to 125 for the first three and then 42 per model there after? With plus 5 for prime. That would up my basic five man unit with one mace from 216 to 229. It's a start, but makes the choice of paladins a bit harder. Retributors are the safest and best choice right now, where protectors and decimators are much more situational and thus harder to use.

Procecutors: Still extremely underwhelming. I don't have a greatweapon on the prime, which might make them more useful. But my standard three double hammers with prime, really don't cut it. They can't really deal with even a wizard with missile and combat. Let alone one in cover or with decent save. They are very fast, and good for objective grapping, but at hunting weak heroes or even warmachine crew, they are simply not good enough. You need 4 or 5 to do that. And the price is hefty. They are basicly liberators on wings, and liberators really don't deal that much damage...and the plus 10 for prime is way off. Up the greatweapon to 10, assuming it goes on a prime. But many people play with the starter set setup with all with twin hammers. My best bet on pricing is 30 per procecutor and plus 5 for prime, with greatweapon plus 10. It's still double the cost of liberators, it's pretty big. Right now they are three points lower than a retributor, and that's simply way off.

Judicators: The crossbows suck, big time... Wow, they are really bad, except the thunderbolt. Bows are waaaaay better. It's nearly liberator territory. Maybe 20 per x-bow. And again, the prime is plus 10 now. Too much, it's only plus 1 to hit. Plus five points at the most. He is only good with the shockbolt bow, so up that 5 points, everybody puts that on the prime, hitting on 2+ anyway.

Gryph-Hound: 30 points? Ehh, no. It's utter crap. No save and an abilty that you really can't use. And a free kill point in those scenarios. 15 or 20 points the most. Put it at 20/15 instead of 30/20, then the first is still over costed imo.

In my force, what works and what is...meh...

Dracoth Lord works
Relictor works (on and off, but has a unique role to play)
Liberators work
Retributors work (too good in my opponants opinions)
Procecutors don't work (maybe I'm missing something or needs a bigger squad)
Judicators w. x-bows do absolutely nothing that liberators can't do better and cheaper.
Gryph-hound is painted, but I'm not giving a free kill point away for a 30 point handicap. A fricking night gobbo fanatic stops a charge for 20 and kill things...but the hound is a good looking little model.

But overall we have good games in our group, they all seem pretty balanced. There are good and bad match ups, but no army is dominating. External balance seems really good. There are some tweaking to do within the lists, to make more units viable in a cost efficient manner, but it is getting there.

Grimbok

Just to comment on some of those; I think they are very related to the game size. 1000 pts is pretty small and like very high points totals the balance won't be quite as solid. The relictor becomes better when there are large enemy units (and a wealth of targets in range) for him to hit with the lightning and thus the -1 hit penalty. The other paladin options also become better since the protectors' screening against shooting and the decimators' have actual hordes to fight against.

I have to ask on the crossbow liberators, are you factoring in their rapid fire rule? Because then they get three shots apiece as long as they didn't move which is an important factor in balancing them against the bows (becomes bows=0.44 rend -1 wounds vs crossbows=1.00 no rend wounds). Though I still agree that the crossbows should be a few points lower because of their inferior range and rend.

My games against Stormcast pretty much support the rest of what you said (though for what its worth the javelin prosecutors seem fine unlike the underpowered hammer variety). I'd like to say I think you have a great point with the weapon upgrades and unit champions; assuming (probably correctly) that people are only getting the weapon upgrade to put on a champion then it would be better to reduce the champion's cost and shift it to the weapons to open up the option for running unit champions without special weapons.

I think it works fine at a 1000 points. Eventually, our group will play 1500 point, but I don't think a 6*4 table can support more models and still make sense (same with 40k, I don't get why so many plays 1850, it's too crowded). Putting many models on the board is a legacy of 8th imo. You have battleplans and objectives to complete, and that needs space to move around.

I would hope Attilla is balancing on a 1500 point game scale.

On the x-bows: range 12" means they don't shoot in the first round, and certainly not three shots. They only fire three when in melee, and that's really not the place to be for them. And only every other round. The four extra shots (not incl thunderbolt) is just that, four shots hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+. Nothing, actually. They are bad, really bad. Top three stormcast bad, maybe number one bad (gryph hound, javelins and x-bows is the bottom three in the army I think).

I can see decimators beeing attractive if you use a sideboard or in bigger games with more models. But you still have to deliver them at the right spot, and lets face it, there are many monsters and heroes in these games you have to deal with, and that's where they are not good. The protectors do seem more allround though, and can handle monsters, which is nice.

Grimbok

Grimbok wrote:
I think it works fine at a 1000 points. Eventually, our group will play 1500 point, but I don't think a 6*4 table can support more models and still make sense (same with 40k, I don't get why so many plays 1850, it's too crowded). Putting many models on the board is a legacy of 8th imo. You have battleplans and objectives to complete, and that needs space to move around.

I would hope Attilla is balancing on a 1500 point game scale.

On the x-bows: range 12" means they don't shoot in the first round, and certainly not three shots. They only fire three when in melee, and that's really not the place to be for them. And only every other round. The four extra shots (not incl thunderbolt) is just that, four shots hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+. Nothing, actually. They are bad, really bad. Top three stormcast bad, maybe number one bad (gryph hound, javelins and x-bows is the bottom three in the army I think).

I can see decimators beeing attractive if you use a sideboard or in bigger games with more models. But you still have to deliver them at the right spot, and lets face it, there are many monsters and heroes in these games you have to deal with, and that's where they are not good. The protectors do seem more allround though, and can handle monsters, which is nice.

Grimbok

Hey all, I'm back from my trip and ready to persue the march update now

All the posts in this thread will be taken into consideration for the update, so your posts on the Stormcast have been very good as they are one of the main AoS factions (and yes X-Bows will definately cost less than bows in the update to come).

I've tried a few match VS different armies. Here are some comments I can think of:

Paladins:
- Retributor = Worth every penny
- Protector = overall good, less specialized than their other paladin brethen. Cost is ok
- Decimator = Worth every penny, especially VS horde. Even the +2 to Bravery is good by itself

Judicator:
- Bows are awesome. Like, really awesome. Shock-bolt Bow is even greater. R-1 with W3+ is brutal
- Xbow are... situationals mostly. Great against a horde with low armor, when you're in combat too. Giving them +1 armor make them less vulnerable but paying for shooters and getting them into combat is not the best option.

Hero:
- Knight-Venator =you like one trick pony? Take him then. I dislike him because you really pay for his one shot ability. Start second/miss with his arrow/get him charged and he's nearly done. 130 pts seems a bit high.
- Knight-Vexillor = seems good but his cost is a bit high without upgrade. No rending is pretty rare for Stormcast
- Knight-Heraldor = love it. 90 pts is not that high considering the synergy with paladin + their M4''. Run/charge is great!
- Lord-Celestant = he's good. Command ability is bad ass with paladin.
- Lord Castellan = Bread and butter. Love the +1 armor who doesn't use magic dice. Great ability, not too much killy but enough wound to survive a match.

Other than that, I've played against Nurgle daemon. Nothing struck me except the damned plague bearers at 8pts each. Seems a bit low with the 5+ ignore a W or MW.
Vampire count = Ghoul king with flesh eater army is quite insane. Sadly for him, his 5+ armor is quite bad. Was tempted to call him underpriced regarding the synergy potential but he's really not resilient.

I'll update into this forum regarding all my other matchs in the time to comes.


Next thing that we RREEAAALLLY should have is a file containing all the cost for the bataillons warscrolls, even the new chaos ones. This will really help all players to build their army according to the system.

Thanks babyberg31! I'm looking forward to more updates when you have the chance.

I have begun the intel gathering on units that might need a tweak now, so if you want anything considered for early march update, now is the time to let us know.

Hellstriders of Slaanesh - I have been working with these guys a lot (really like the models) but am having trouble getting them to really be worth their points. The bonus attack rule oftentimes does nothing since it is models killed and the unit struggles to get a high enough tally even against just 2-wound models, or anything with a 4+ save (then once the unit loses models of its own it simply cant muster enough attacks to trigger it). The unit champion really isn't worth 10 points either; better 5 for a single extra attack on a model with 3 already. That said, the enrapturing banner is absolutely amazing; a 6" bubble off the entire unit that makes any enemy model in range be -1 to hit with all attacks. It is certainly worth more than 15 pts.

Marauder horsemen feel about 1-2 ppm too high for what they do, considering how easily they die.

And as much as it pains me to say it, plaguebearers might need a 1 ppm increase.

Yeah. I too would like to see some changes to champion- and daemon costs. champions could probably be reduced to half the price across the board to great effect, but there might be some really powerful ones out there, that have the right price right now (fyreslayer champions for example). I probably agree about the plaguebearer increase too, but luckily we have a tournament coming up with a nurgle player, which should give us some more information. The herald is probably 10 points too cheap if not more, but we'll see. The big guys however, (Morbidex, Bloab and Orghotts) all seem 20-30 points too expensive. They can take a huge punch, but with the small damage output, I have no quarrels with sending my mortal wound dealing units after them. It's like the 3 magmadroth characters. They just don't fit the bill.

Champions could get a price change but some of them get great benefit from special weapons, like the judicator with shockbolt bow.

Two things that really need tuning are the damn Varghulf and the dwarf flame canon.

The vargulf doesn't have the "monster" keywork, which is a shame.

And obsiously, a flame canon with 2D6 MW potential is horrible. The ingeneer synergy is very strong.

Andreas 2.0 wrote:
The big guys however, (Morbidex, Bloab and Orghotts) all seem 20-30 points too expensive. They can take a huge punch, but with the small damage output, I have no quarrels with sending my mortal wound dealing units after them. It's like the 3 magmadroth characters. They just don't fit the bill.

My brother will be pleased to hear this I traded him my mortal Nurgle army some time ago and he's added Bloab since. Although he gets good use out of him as is, we see the point you make about their being too high costed (pun intended).

babyberg31 wrote:
The vargulf doesn't have the "monster" keywork, which is a shame.

It does, however, have the hero keyword now This changed with the Grand Alliance book, and is a welcome one. Although I would rather have it as a monster, though.

I will make a list of all changes I can find in the GA books, as that should be of interest to many people - it does change gameplay around abit after all!
(Most changes are only superficial such as name changes, but some scrolls lost or gained abilities!)

Some people are mad at GW for changing their scrolls - I think it's the perfect way of fixing the game as they go. Although they should announce the changes themselves so we don't have to scavenge through the book for every little change ourselves. Maybe they do in White Dwarf, anyone knows?

Attilla wrote:
It does, however, have the hero keyword now This changed with the Grand Alliance book, and is a welcome one. Although I would rather have it as a monster, though.

Didn't even notice that!
Well, it nows include it into the 50% max with other Death heros, which is nice.

Totally agree with you regarding the warscroll updates. I personnaly love it. One thing though, their is no more entry for the Strigoi Ghoul king on foot is not avaialble anymore.

babyberg31 wrote:
One thing though, their is no more entry for the Strigoi Ghoul king on foot is not avaialble anymore.

He's called "Abhorrent Ghoul King" now but he's there, in the Flesh-Eater Courts.

On the topic of warscroll changes, I like them because they seem to be improved over their old versions in that they work better or have silly rules eliminated. On the Chaos end, the Chaos Lord on foot will need to be re-evaluated because his command ability changed to something completely different, and the Masque will need a points drop since her re-rolls are no longer guaranteed (formerly were as per PPCs auto-trigger silly rules). The cockatrice will need a slight points drop for the same reason (gaze hits on 4+ instead of 3+ now).

babyberg31 wrote:

Attilla wrote:
It does, however, have the hero keyword now This changed with the Grand Alliance book, and is a welcome one. Although I would rather have it as a monster, though.

Didn't even notice that!
Well, it nows include it into the 50% max with other Death heros, which is nice.

Totally agree with you regarding the warscroll updates. I personnaly love it. One thing though, their is no more entry for the Strigoi Ghoul king on foot is not avaialble anymore.

The Strigoi on foot has just been renamed to Abhorrant Ghoul King, so in the GA book he's still there.

EDIT: Ninja'ed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

babyberg31 wrote:
One thing though, their is no more entry for the Strigoi Ghoul king on foot is not avaialble anymore.

He's called "Abhorrent Ghoul King" now but he's there, in the Flesh-Eater Courts.

On the topic of warscroll changes, I like them because they seem to be improved over their old versions in that they work better or have silly rules eliminated. On the Chaos end, the Chaos Lord on foot will need to be re-evaluated because his command ability changed to something completely different, and the Masque will need a points drop since her re-rolls are no longer guaranteed (formerly were as per PPCs auto-trigger silly rules). The cockatrice will need a slight points drop for the same reason (gaze hits on 4+ instead of 3+ now).

Yeah all the changed scrolls need to be re-evaluated. I made a post on the blog about which entries have changed, so each of them will be gone through and updated. I had missed The Masque though, so good thing you pointed that one out here

Attilla wrote:
Yeah all the changed scrolls need to be re-evaluated. I made a post on the blog about which entries have changed, so each of them will be gone through and updated. I had missed The Masque though, so good thing you pointed that one out here

On a similar note, Nurglings gained the ability to be summoned. And on the list of changes you may want to shorten the daemonic locus effects to "all locus effects have been changed to trigger of any daemon hero of the appropriate god" since that is indeed what has occurred.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Attilla wrote:
Yeah all the changed scrolls need to be re-evaluated. I made a post on the blog about which entries have changed, so each of them will be gone through and updated. I had missed The Masque though, so good thing you pointed that one out here

On a similar note, Nurglings gained the ability to be summoned. And on the list of changes you may want to shorten the daemonic locus effects to "all locus effects have been changed to trigger of any daemon hero of the appropriate god" since that is indeed what has occurred.

Cheers, added them!

So I just saw that Skaarac got priced at 450 pts... Am I missing something? Me and my bud played a game with him and agreed at the end that he was probably worth around 600 points. How is he costed so low?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So I just saw that Skaarac got priced at 450 pts... Am I missing something? Me and my bud played a game with him and agreed at the end that he was probably worth around 600 points. How is he costed so low?

Well, first and foremost it's from the formula (not including special rules).

But of course, playtesting is always needed for the big guys before we can get a precise cost from abilities.

But let's check him out:
VS GIANT
He has about the same damage output as a Giant when taking the Stuff 'Em ability into account. He has +4 wounds and one better save than the Giant.
He has some really neat special abilities but a rather bad CMD if you choose to use him as your general. This costs the same as 2,25 Giants. Is he really worth 3 Giants?

VS SOUL GRINDER
Let's compare to a Soul Grinder, same wounds and save. The Grinder does less dmg in melee but more dmg at range (dmg at range is generelly valued higher in the PPC). Skaarac don't get to reach out to his targets as well, and can't run+shoot, but his other abilities are much nicer than the Grinder's. Unless of course the Grinder gets lucky with his hidden dice vs the right opponent. For the same dmg at less range, the same wounds and save, you pay 75 pts extra.

VS DRAGON
Comparing him to a High Elf Prince on Dragon
Dragon has 2 less wounds but 1 better save. The Dragon has almost 50% higher damage output and can fly, but Skaarac has his neat abilities. But that 50% increase in damage is massive, and brings the Dragon up to 520 pts (in 2016.03). So you pay 70pts less for Skaarac.


And, just for fun, putting him in a direct fight vs a Hydra would almost even out, despite a 120 pts difference to Skaarac.

But I'm curious as to makes you and your friend think it should sit as high as 600 pts? Our calculation is only mathhammer after all, and you have actually tested him!

Skaarac will always do poorly head-on with other monsters because then he isn't getting the use of his abilities. Compare Skaarac's performance against units vs other monsters against the same units. As long as Skaarac kills a single model he heals d3 wounds, meaning he will be in the fight (and maintaining higher damage output from having more wounds) longer than those other monsters. Then, so long as he even does a single wound to an enemy (that doesn't even need to kill them) he nerfs the bravery of all enemy units within 12" by 2. That is huge; consider every model that flees as a result of this as an extra kill on his part. When it is just him in a vacuum against another monster he performs very poorly, on a table as part of one army vs another he is absolutely devastating. I highly encourage testing him yourself to see what I mean, mathhammer does not do Skaarac justice.