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Question at hand: Are Rhinos worth giving away a whole kill point?
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Yea, sounds great; transport up to ten troops twice as fast, and get cover and a free storm bolter, but that is about as far as it goes. Pouring 250+ points into an armor 11 vehicle is not a wise move. Nothing says "shoot this to swiss cheese" as a single 11 armor vehicle carrying troops that are otherwise useless while getting an easy kill point like a rhino. Even a drop-pod is useless, as it is an easy victory point too. There is no way a sane person would take a rhino, razorback, or a drop pod in there army if they are not willing to sacrifice 280 points and 2 victory points. Can somone clarify me why anyone would compose a list with them?

They are a cheap way of giving your marines a shell to stop them from dying quickly, and move a bit faster.

Sure, they give up kill points pretty easily, but most armies have at least a couple relatively easy KP. Also, the additional mobility is worthwhile in objective games.

I guess you don't like landspeeders either then, since they are AV 10. And DE raiders must also suck since they are AV 10 open topped.

What criteria do you use to determine if a vehicle is good? I'm sure other players will disagree with you, especially considering how widely used they are by very good players.

As an aside, you posted this in the army list forum, it should go in tactics.

They are only like 50 points or something actually.

I'm going to take a page out of DooDoo's book and say:

You obviously don't know how to play 40K very well.

Multiples of the aforementioned transports make Marines very hard to deal with and provide target saturation for armies sporting lots of Dreads and Predators.

Moving this to Tactics.

If my opponent doesn't use transports, he had best have a carefully-designed and strong army build to make up for the lack of mobility. Or he is going to lose. Badly.

I am against rhinos, not other low armor vehicles, as rhinos are a poor choice, in that they have practically no firepower, nor do they reliably transport troops, as compared to a land raider, which is more worth its points, due to the fact it is a mobile bunker with amazing weapons. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea of the rhino, a cheap way to transport troops, and heck, the low armor wouldnt bother me if it didnt give away aa point when it was destroyed.

I can buy six Rhinos for less than the price of a single LR.

Cost is a factor.

I like rhinos simply because of the above reasons; they are a shell, they are cheap at 35 points, and can move your troops quickly to an objective.

Razonback are a bit better, in that for the same price you get some decent anti infantry standard (TL heavy bolter). You can boost it up to a TL assault cannon or TL lascannon for 70 points total and give it even better firepower to pop the other guys light transports.

They are not worthless by a long shot. Put 6 of them on the board, and you are going to be giving your opponent a headache in which to deal with.

daemon wrote:They are only like 50 points or something actually.

I think he was referring to the contents being 200pts plus.

I play 3 Rhino's in my CSM army, and yes they get shot at, which means my marines didn't get shot at. At 35pts it is more than justified. And they can move 12", smoke, get the cover save move another 12" then maybe get destroyed, all the while my troops are safe.

I don't agree that they suck. They might not be a Wave Serpent, but they have their purpose at their cost.

But they are also a third of the cost of a Wave Serpent...

If rhinos suck, better stop playing marines altogether.

No offense dude. Play more games , and maybe we'll take you seriously.

Unless your doing an all drop army or an all biker army your only options are the rhino or razorback. Its silly to complain that the contents of a rhino are so expensive when its one of the only basic troops you can take as a space marine player of all flavors. Your other option for vanilla are scouts which are much worse and only 3 points cheaper than a standard space marine. If you have to take a minimum of two squads of space marines why not dramatically increase their survivability and mobility for a fraction of their cost. They also mesh well with the special weapons SM get. Rhinos let you fire your bonus weapon for having a ten man squad and if you take a 5 man squad you can take a razor back and still get a heavy weapon. Seems like win win to me.

Fifty wrote:But they are also a third of the cost of a Wave Serpent...

Yes, but that's the point of my statement. You get what you paid for.

Like I said, the rhino is great, but I dont like throwing away a whole victory point away on eaach one of them!

would you rather have your squad get hit with a plasma cannon or the rhino. I think id rather the 35 pt rhino eat it. Just my opinion

darkmarine wrote:---
Question at hand: Are Rhinos worth giving away a whole kill point?
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Yea, sounds great; transport up to ten troops twice as fast, and get cover and a free storm bolter, but that is about as far as it goes. Pouring 250+ points into an armor 11 vehicle is not a wise move. Nothing says "shoot this to swiss cheese" as a single 11 armor vehicle carrying troops that are otherwise useless while getting an easy kill point like a rhino. Even a drop-pod is useless, as it is an easy victory point too. There is no way a sane person would take a rhino, razorback, or a drop pod in there army if they are not willing to sacrifice 280 points and 2 victory points. Can somone clarify me why anyone would compose a list with them?

If you don't see the purpose of rhinos you have not been in the game long enough to remember when duel lash csm lists were an unstopeable terror. Footslog regular sm against a top tier csm duel lash player and you might see the virtue of rhinos.

Almost every codex has the base price at 35 points, more for ba but less for assault marines. Fully decked out chaos rhinos with a combi melta or havoc still cost 50 or less.

Transport is great, but entrusting a whole kill pooint to a isngle tin can isnt, Id rather spend 220 points on some of the best armor, and amazing weapons, giving me a large chance of not just giving away a kill point, rather than giving a kill point to a 11armor vehicle.


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Id pay 100 points if it meant taking away the kill point, but it doesnt, so Im glad to pay an extra 150 atop the 100 I would pay to get 14armor, and amazing weapons, not to mention POTms LR style!

Why are you worrying about kill points when 2/3 games are objective based. If you take a land raider, I promise you that in any game over 1000pts it'll be blown up first or second turn. In games under 1000pts, it'll still probably be blown up first or second turn and you won't have the forces to carry on. Either way your giving up a kill point, but on top of this you lose a load more points and a large portion of your armies fire power.

If I have tacs in rhino or razorbacks I can take an objective quickly, without my marines being shot up by small arms.

Also, if you have a look at every SM list you will almost always see rhinos or razorbacks or both in there, and you will rarely see land raiders unless your running TH/SS termies in a vulkan list; and even then, you still see rhinos!

If Rhinos are really so bad how come pretty much every tournament SM army out there which isn't a DoA, a biker list or a drop pod list contain them..

Edit: Here are the SM and CSM lists on the first page of the army lists forum which contain rhinos/razorbacks

I DISAGREE ENTIRELY WITH YOUR THESIS, BUT CHOSE NOT TO EXPRESS THAT POLITELY.

Seriously tho, 35pts to increase the movement and protect a ~180pts squad is NOT a bad idea. Especially not as most AT usually is directed at more pressing targets like dread/vindis and preds

If Trukks are worth a Kill Point, with less to work with for the same price, then I see no reason why you'd prevent Rhinos from being worth one.

Clearly, darkmarine hasn't played much games.

Regardless, this is a battle of preference. We already iterated that the good points of the rhino outweighs its bad points. Imposing your opinion on us is a futile attempt.

Yes, Rhinos are worth a whole Kill Point, but this forces you to balance your army.

2/3 of games are objective based and 1/3 are kill points based. Taking lots of Rhinos is great for 2/3 of games, but lets you down in 1/3 of games. Hence, you need to balance your army.

This is a GOOD thing. If transports weren't worth Kill Points there'd be no disadvantage to taking them, thereby removing an element of army building strategy and resulting in a game where absolutely every army is full mech - which is boring...

Oh waaaaah, a whole whopping kill point for one out of three mission types. If you mech up to the eyeballs with everything you can not only does it give your opponent night mares it makes you have a grand total of what, half the total kill points that other armies end up having to take just to be partially as effective?

I hear Ork trukks would like to have a word with you about pricing, effectiveness, utility and kill points.

Maybe I have just had really bad personal experience with them, but anytime I go to tourneys (at least at my local place) they require you to carry th same list throughout the tournament, this said, when facing multiple opponents with the same list, theres a good chance that you'll play a few, if not one, games of annihilation. I dont want to risk getting taken out the last rounds because of a few rhinos that do nothig for me. It is not worth doubling the speed of a few of my troops if it means I will lose 1/3 of the games because of it. Rhinos would be great if it wasnt for being worth a kill point, but they are, and not worth it to me. I would rather have my troops get there in three turns after taking fire from a few flashlights then hopping in a rhino, moving for one turn, get pinned, then get there in the same amount of timee and lose a kill point, but like I said, just my view.
To recap:
Shield and speed for troops=good
a whole kp designated in armor11=bad and hinders your ability to win 1/3 of games.

A non mechanized army does have an advantage in 1/3 games, but being high in kp is not the end of the world. If being high in kp was a dealbreaker then ig would be the least competitive army in the game behind both tau and necrons, and we all know that is not the case.

My 2500 ard boys doa list had 12 kp and 5-10 scoring units depending on combat squads. A long fang + loganwing can also easily get down to 10-12 kp with 6 scoring units at the same 2500 point level. Vanilla bike armies can also be low kp lists. Some non mechanized armies are very competitive all comers tournament lists.

That being said an army of tac marines on foot would get wtf pwned on a regular basis. There are so few non mechanized meq builds that are competitive that the competitive ones out there can be really scary to a list tooled to destroy mech. I would do a lot more research into the few competitive non mech armies that work before sinking time and money into it.

Your making an almighty deal out it being a KP. Seriously, I'd much rather have a guaranteed 12" move to grab/contest an objective in 2/3rds of my games than fret about losing a KP in 1/3rd of them.

And thats not even taking into consideration everything else a Rhino can do. You say you prefer Land Raiders? OK, well I'll drive an empty Rhino and park it right in front of your Raider's assault ramp. You can't ram me, so you'll have to either a) get the unit out and assault it b) stand still and shoot it or c) drive around it. All three of these options are great news for me as they delay upwards of 500pts of your army for 35pts of my own.

Or they can be used as mobile cover, or you can use them to wedge a gap between two peices of terrain, again reducing your enemy's manouverability.

There are a ton of other things Rhinos can be used for, sweating it over a single KP wll see you making unneccessary alterations to your list that will, ultimately, lead to your detriment.

L. Wrex

darkmarine wrote:I am against rhinos, not other low armor vehicles, as rhinos are a poor choice, in that they have practically no firepower, nor do they reliably transport troops, as compared to a land raider, which is more worth its points, due to the fact it is a mobile bunker with amazing weapons. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea of the rhino, a cheap way to transport troops, and heck, the low armor wouldnt bother me if it didnt give away aa point when it was destroyed.

As a Dark Eldar player, I'd much rather see my opponent running two Land Raiders than 6-10 Rhinos or Predators.

As an IG player and SM player please just run a couple land raiders and we will show you the error of your ways with massed melta, Ordonance and more dakka than you can shake a stick at

Bascially the OP has agreed that 'Good Transports Are Good', and 'Bad Killpoints Are Bad'. Also, 'Tournaments Require You To Use The Same List', and 'Land Raiders Is Awesome'.

Welcome to DakkaDakka!

darkmarine wrote:Like I said, the rhino is great, but I dont like throwing away a whole victory point away on eaach one of them!

Victory points only matter on 1/3 of randomly determined games. Choosing a strategy that hurts you in 2/3 of games to achieve a perceived benefit in 1/3 of games is not, in my opinion, the wisest decision.