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Rhino’s are among the most efficient transports in the game.

All armies have built in anti-infantry firepower/close combat capability. AV11 is the minimum AV required to be invulnerable to the vast majority of bulk line fire of every army with the sole exception of Tau.

This creates an order of operations that works in the rhino players favor. First the opponent must utilize his specialized anti-vehicle firepower to destroy the transport. Then, he can utilize his bulk line fire to destroy the contents of that transport.

Additionally, most games last an average of 6 turns. This means an un-mounted squad of space marines has a game-span threat zone of 36” or movement + 12” of shooting + whatever assaulting may or may not take place. A rhino turns that 48”+ threat zone into 72” + 12” shooting, or 84”+. That is a HUGE asset to getting the most efficiency out of the unit.

It is a combination of these two factors that make mechanized space marines such a nasty composition to play against. While anti-infantry capability is common and cheap, anti-AV capability tends to be much more rare and specialized.

I like them because they look cool and they do what they are supposed to do and don't take many points. I don't think I have ever worried about bean counting KPs anyway, you can usually tell who kicked who's ass by looking at all the carnage. Play to blow stuff up, not to do a delicate mathematical balancing act of potential effectiveness (well, unless that's how you have fun I suppose, in which case we would hate each other).

I have found that getting into the "SLAUGHTER EVERYTHING!" mindset when done well usually garners the same result win-wise as actually bean counting the KPs, so who cares if they get a KP from your rhino, you get one too by killing whatever killed it. The difference is they wasted their time blowing something up that wasn't really a threat, while you killed something that was a threat. If he takes all his shots killing off minimal-threat transports, then those transports have done their jobs, even better if they die in a particularly choice location and fill in their role as mobile cover even in death. So sure, waste all your S6 shots on rhinos, their cargo will be killing off real threats in response. Oh well, we gotta walk home, but at least we still have legs. She was a good little rhino, she'll be missed, enjoy your KP dead enemy guy.

You wouldn't like playing myself and some other good (or better) tournament players. In KP missions, a strategy used by good players around here is to get an early lead on KP and then try to avoid engaging to simply hold the lead until the end of the game.

KP are a great way to counterbalance armies. MSU is very good for objectives and VPs, but KP punishes MSU harshly.

Saldiven wrote:

darkmarine wrote:I am against rhinos, not other low armor vehicles, as rhinos are a poor choice, in that they have practically no firepower, nor do they reliably transport troops, as compared to a land raider, which is more worth its points, due to the fact it is a mobile bunker with amazing weapons. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea of the rhino, a cheap way to transport troops, and heck, the low armor wouldnt bother me if it didnt give away aa point when it was destroyed.

As a Dark Eldar player, I'd much rather see my opponent running two Land Raiders than 6-10 Rhinos or Predators.

Seconded. Also, go pay 60 points mimimum for an AV10 open-topped vehicle, then complain to me.

Also, let me play you. You'll find out after eating 9 S5 AP2 shots out of a Disintegrator Ravager each round why its much, MUCH better to take a Rhino than it is to footslog. Yes, it is a killpoint. Oh well. Most armies average around 12 or 13. Chances are, your opponent has fairly easily popped vehicles as well. If its killpoints, oh hey, look, they are JUST AS EASY to pop. Saying that a much higher chance for your expensive units to live is not worth the possiblity of losing a killpoint is quite frankly ridiculous. If that's the case, then it looks like I won't be running my three Raiders and three Ravagers in my 1500 point Dark Eldar list, since they are either AV 10 or 11

-_______________________-;;

mmmh... i'm not an expert.... but I noticed the smell of a troll...

darkmarine wrote:Transport is great, but entrusting a whole kill pooint to a isngle tin can isnt, Id rather spend 220 points on some of the best armor, and amazing weapons, giving me a large chance of not just giving away a kill point, rather than giving a kill point to a 11armor vehicle.


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Id pay 100 points if it meant taking away the kill point, but it doesnt, so Im glad to pay an extra 150 atop the 100 I would pay to get 14armor, and amazing weapons, not to mention POTms LR style!

You are my dream opponent, sir.

- Imperial Guardsman

Lol.




That's all I have to say about that. Just......lol.

darkmarine wrote:I would rather have my troops get there in three turns

They won't make it there in 3 turns. They'll be dead on the first or if your lucky second. Now you gave up a KP anyways.

This thread made me laugh.

I CHOSE TO MAKE PERSONAL INSINUATIONS ABOUT WHY A PERSON HOLDS A PARTICULAR OPINION.

For 35 points, you get something with an AV. That's worth it alone. You get a distraction, and most importantly, you move your troops twice as fast across the board.

I CHOSE TO MOCK A PERSON RATHER THAN POLITELY GIVE THEM MY OPINION.

Saldiven wrote:

darkmarine wrote:I am against rhinos, not other low armor vehicles, as rhinos are a poor choice, in that they have practically no firepower, nor do they reliably transport troops, as compared to a land raider, which is more worth its points, due to the fact it is a mobile bunker with amazing weapons. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea of the rhino, a cheap way to transport troops, and heck, the low armor wouldnt bother me if it didnt give away aa point when it was destroyed.

As a Dark Eldar player, I'd much rather see my opponent running two Land Raiders than 6-10 Rhinos or Predators.

You asked for it! *spams Black Templars LRCs with blessed hull*

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

darkmarine wrote:I am against rhinos, not other low armor vehicles, as rhinos are a poor choice, in that they have practically no firepower, nor do they reliably transport troops, as compared to a land raider, which is more worth its points, due to the fact it is a mobile bunker with amazing weapons. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea of the rhino, a cheap way to transport troops, and heck, the low armor wouldnt bother me if it didnt give away aa point when it was destroyed.

As a Dark Eldar player, I'd much rather see my opponent running two Land Raiders than 6-10 Rhinos or Predators.

You asked for it! *spams Black Templars LRCs with blessed hull*

Hey, as long as we're list tailoring, I'll take that bet. I'd field three VRB, and a bunch of Scourges with HWB. The new DE codex doesn't have to be as fearful of Blessed Hull as the old one was.

Dracos wrote:You wouldn't like playing myself and some other good (or better) tournament players. In KP missions, a strategy used by good players around here is to get an early lead on KP and then try to avoid engaging to simply hold the lead until the end of the game.

KP are a great way to counterbalance armies. MSU is very good for objectives and VPs, but KP punishes MSU harshly.

KP is a 1/3 chance of being relevant. Killing is always relevant.

I actually would have no problem playing against that 'quick KP and try to avoid' mindset. I agree that is a valid way of scoring a win, I just believe that the opposite philosophy is also valid, and I have more fun with it. Just to be clear, I used to be a Marine player, (and an Ork, and IG, and a Genestealer Cult) and still have an interest in dabbling with Marines and have done so a couple of times in the last 2 years. However, I have been playing Eldar for a long time (I have a some lead Eldar somewhere in a basement to prove it). I don't care which edition or what victory condition rules are currently the method of scoring, the basic philosophy has remained the same at the core of each army. Eldar are so fragile our primary concern is to hit things so hard that they can't hit us back in any kind of mass of fire. We don't hunt down cheap easy KPs we send sicko specialists against the most dangerous unit they are designed to counter (dragon wagon vs big tanks, bladestormers vs hordes, scouts vs MCs, banshees vs. non-assault MEQs and so on. That is the only way to stay alive. If an Eldar army were to sidetrack itself hunting down Rhinos for cheap easy KPs it wouldn't have the smacking power to defend itself the only way it can, which is to kill the guy who shoots/chops the nastiest. Once the big big threats are out of the way, then sure I can take some potshots at rhinos or 5-man scout squads and such, but as long as that assault-cannon-laden tank is moving you better believe those rhinos are the least of my worries. Secondly, good luck trying to play an 'avoidance' game on a 4x6 table with 6 turns, deepstrikers and flankers and full-reserve armys as this seasons new black, and an average weapon range of 2', and more range for big guns.

Being a non-threat is a viable form of defense, especially in a 1850-2000ist point 'standard' size game for a tournament. You might have 5 rhinos and a couple of razor and that could be considered a pretty mech heavy list, and 7 easy KPs. That's also a LOT of points left over for the big mean landraider full of assault termies, or the over-gunned predator just begging to be killed before those 4 lascannons rip you apart. dedicate enough heavy weapons to kill 7 light vehicles worth a whopping total of 255 points and the pred and raider will be blasting away at you and stuffing terminators down your throat wondering "I wonder why nobody is shoooting at us.. oh yeah, because we are only worth as much as a rhino, right?"

I go for big dangerous kills early, not kill-points because the former kind of makes the latter happen, and leaves the badguy less to hit back with. This is why I think Rhinos are good, because they give my Eldar problems. I cannot afford to sidetrack my guns on something that isn't hitting me hard when something else I could also kill (I can kill anything with the right tool) IS hitting me hard.

In a lot of ways I completely agree with you. For a bit of context though, many tournaments here (including the bigger ones) are 1500 points. This leave a bit more room for manoeuvring than you see @ 1850 and 2k.

Neutering the long range AT is part of this strategy. I'd also sooner ignore the rhino and hit the razorbacks. But the thing is with MSU once the majority of your long range AT and mobility is gone, in a KP mission the opponent is rewarded for simply refraining from unnecessary engagements.

This doesn't work so well against pure long range armies, as they prefer you to not engage them. However, against many marine variants such as BT, most BA, some Vanilla and SW, this strategy is often backbreaking. It is employed primarily by a mobile shooty army against a more assaulty army or static gunline. The best players at doing this are two local eldar players who are fantastic with the now somewhat antiquated codex.

Rhinos are great.

I really think that the KP factor isn't really enough to discount them. I personally like them better than Razorbacks, because I do most of my best work with Space Marines at 12-24 inches away so I want them moving.

And yes, making my troops immune to small arms is nothing to sneeze at.

I personally stopped caring about kill points 2 months into 5ed. I just focus on making my list do what I want it to do, which is kill the enemy. Do a better job of killing things, and you will find yourself on top of kill points most of the time (even if you give them up easily like with AV 10-11 vehicle spam).

Rhino's are 110% amazing, 10 Troops pootering around the board in AV11 is great.

just use cover to your advantage, dive from behind building to behind building, dump troops out, go get some more and pull them up to the frontline

I use my rhinos as little mini donkeys transporting people from the back line to the frontline.

Great units!

darkmarine wrote:Yea, sounds great; transport up to ten troops twice as fast, and get cover and a free storm bolter, but that is about as far as it goes. Pouring 250+ points into an armor 11 vehicle is not a wise move.

250 points? Not sure if serious...

They cost what, 50 points? They provide your objective-grabbing troops some protections from nasty weapons such as, say, a Battlecannon. You can also pop smoke after moving 12", with AV11, they're modestly survivable.

darkmarine wrote:250+ points

There's your problem. More boys, less toys; a Tactical Squad in Rhino for a competitive Space Marine list should cost 220 points at absolute maximum, and that already includes 15 points of nonmandatory "luxury" grades. If you really have 250+ points in a rhino, you desperately need to trim the fat. A lot of the weaknesses of the Rhino are mitigated when you field them in multiples, after all, and if you cut 4 260 point "pile on the grades" squads down to 4 205 point minimalistic ones, the 220 points you save will let you buy another full squad, or three Land Speeders, or two Dreadnoughts, or any number of other effective choices.

all these posts and no one has brought up the awesome power of the rhino wall... when you need to block your opponent away from you... the rhino is absolutely awesome at that.

SO when your 250pt landraider gets lanced and killed in one shot, what happens? I have ran 2 razorbacks since I started playing 40k. The rhino chassi is on of the best vehicle transports in the game. You bring your 2-3 land raiders, and I will bring 6-8 razorbacks. Lets see who wins that match up.

First, Darkmarine's a PLEASE DON'T CALL PEOPLE NAMES. Secondly, I'm surprised everyone acts like simply by taking a Rhino you award your opponent a KP. Those little buggers have a low profile and are immune to small arms fire. Make them work for the KP.

I think that I'm willing to give up a KP for marines to be where they need to be, and I might not give up a KP anways. Not every mission is KPs anyways.

There somethings you won't understand until you get a wide variety of playing experience. If you think that rhinos and drop pods of bad, you need a wider variety of playing experience.

Um...... OP..... listen....

Take rhinos. Use them in objective missions to protect your troops and increase mobility.

In kp missions, line them up or box them up at the corner/back edge of the board, then march your marines up. If they want to shoot your rhinos, they will be ignoring all your marines heading their way, and you win.

Alternatively, if you have problems with them just "killing my dudes when they blow up and pinning them in place", get out ASAP and start giving the enemy something to worry about besides your rhinos. Then start using the rhinos to tank shock. Try tank shocking a Ld 10 unit like four times with different rhinos. It's hilarious when it eventually fails a Ld check and runs off the board.

darkmarine wrote:I am against rhinos, not other low armor vehicles, as rhinos are a poor choice, in that they have practically no firepower, nor do they reliably transport troops, as compared to a land raider, which is more worth its points, due to the fact it is a mobile bunker with amazing weapons. Dont get me wrong, I love the idea of the rhino, a cheap way to transport troops, and heck, the low armor wouldnt bother me if it didnt give away aa point when it was destroyed.

1 in three games only.

And in tournaments that tends to be a figure more in favour of the rhino.

They can contest quite well.

They are nearly immune to most small arms fire.

They can tank shock units off of/ away from objectives and your units.

They can block off potential routes the enemy could take.

They can make low LD units cheese it

They cost as much as two marines

There storm bolters while unimpressive can do some damage.

They are very good for target saturation.

They can provide cover for non transport capable units.

They can sit themselves in front of enemy heavy weapons or just a squad of infantry and force them to destroy it/ try to destroy it or waste movement going around it.
This works very well with putting several rhinos in a line in front of an enemy unit making them waste time and turns before they can do something except kill your cheap tanks.

And if you have enough rhinos it is amazing fun actually creating a circle or square completely around a unit.
And then drive your vehicles in circles to make the enemy need a 6 to hit you.





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Happygrunt wrote:SO when your 250pt landraider gets lanced and killed in one shot, what happens? I have ran 2 razorbacks since I started playing 40k. The rhino chassi is on of the best vehicle transports in the game. You bring your 2-3 land raiders, and I will bring 6-8 razorbacks. Lets see who wins that match up.

The 22 rhinos i take will win!


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They are far too good for the points they cost.

Razorback > Rhino's. I think what the OP is getting that is all Rhinos bring to the table is transportation. Rhino's have poor armor (anything under 12 is poor imo), lack speed, aren't a skimmer, and have no fire power. Pretty much every other transport in the game is better. From a price perspective they're not bad, from a KP perspective they suck.

DarkHound wrote: Secondly, I'm surprised everyone acts like simply by taking a Rhino you award your opponent a KP.

/Agree. I know my Rhinos/Razorbacks survive being shot at (by anything) far more often than not. I even spring for EA every time. I've never felt I paid too much for them.

It is very interesting that here is a thread about how crappy Rhinos are, while in 40K General Discussion there is a thread about 6th edition, and most people are saying vehicles are too good and need to be toned down.

I find large amounts of Razorbacks very helpful. They enemy can survive against BA when you have 4 or 5 TL Assault Cannons on fast vehicles, and thats without my Baal Predators.

I would only use razorbacks i was my armies if i was playing BA (due to them being fast). Which i dont and i like being able to get both special weapons or both the special and the heavy weapon so i use rhinos.

Amaya wrote:Razorback > Rhino's. I think what the OP is getting that is all Rhinos bring to the table is transportation. Rhino's have poor armor (anything under 12 is poor imo), lack speed, aren't a skimmer, and have no fire power. Pretty much every other transport in the game is better. From a price perspective they're not bad, from a KP perspective they suck.

I recommend reading ChocolateGork's post, right above yours. Rhinos can do so much more than transport.