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I'm having real trouble getting better at 40k, basically. And it's really starting to frustrate me.

I've been playing now for a year and a half, and throughout that time my win to lost ration is probably 4 losses to everyone 1 Win, or draw. That's terrible, I know it. But I can't seem to get any better. I play once a week against good strong opponents from Bristol Vanguard and after and during each game I think about all the mistakes I've made in the game. I talk to my opponent about better strategies or what I did wrong, and I often see or understand these mistakes, sometimes only a turn after I've made them. I make a list of 'the lessons I learned' after each game and memorise them all. Things like, 'protect the side armour of my vindicators', 'be aware of lascannons that can targets your obliterators' and such.

But despite going to all this effort I make the same mistakes over and over. I can't seem to keep these lessons in my head once the game begins. I get carried away with doing everything at once, spreading my forces out, not focus firing, doing stupid things like blocking my vindicators line of sight with a rhino, or putting my obliterators on a hill to get a good shot, only next turn to lose all of them to lascannons from all across the board. I frequently get carried away with killing and drive my troops away from objectives to hold the fray, only realising when they're stuck in combat what a mistake I've made.

I find this frustrating, because I'm not like this in with other skills/subjects. I'm a fast learner and always have been, don't have difficulty with maths or remembering the rules or anything like that. So it's tough to suck at something that I really want to be good at.


So, I guess what I'm looking for (aside from a rant) is any tips on how you got better. Was there a key game where suddenly you could apply the things you'd learned better? Did you get 'training' from the better players in your area? How do you deal with the mistakes you make?

Thanks for reading
Lunarman

The biggest thing that helped me with your exact same problem was keeping written notes on every game.

Pick an army you enjoy playing, and resist the urge to change the list for a long series of games (20 or 30) and just make notes, like a battle report to yourself, after each game. Reflecting on the game in writing helps you pinpoint what you did wrong, and you can review the reports periodically to help you remember what you've learned.

I still do keep notes on all the tournament & league games that I play. It helps me a lot.

On the same line as the previous advice, keep practicing with your list. The strategy will come in time and when that comes you can easily and gracefully execute said strategy.

Keep in mind that you WILL lose games, but you can't let that bring you done, one of the worse things you can do is change your list after every loss, because then you have to relearn all the little things that make a specific force go.

It sounds like you are doing great so far. :-)

And it sounds like a very good place to learn the ropes. True you loose a lott but as long as they are nice people it is a good place to learn. Hang around people that are better then yourself and you get better yourself. The next time you play an average oponent you will se the diference when you win.

It almost sounds like you're playing the wrong army, actually...

Bear with me. You say that you get carried away with killing the opponent. Why not make this your army's strength? Could take a lot of khorne bezerkers (assuming you play CSM) or you switch to say an Ork army. Utilise the killing aspects of said army and enjoy the carnage you can cause

I've been good at keeping the same list for a long time now.

I'll sum it up
-----------------
9 Plague Marines inc champ, combi-plasma, 2 plasma guns, PF.
Chaos Lord with combi-plasma
Rhino

10 Chaos marines in champ, PF, 2 meltas, Icon of Khorne
Rhino

10 Chaos marines in champ, PF, 2 meltas, Icon of Khorne
Rhino

2 Vindicators with deamonic Possession
3 obliterators
= 1497

----------------------
I know it's not an uber-list, but it's not that weak. I often get told by people that they're frightened by my list (until they see me make a shambles of it all over the table ) . In Bristol Vanguard there's a bit of a disdain held for the really strong netlists. Obviously, some people play leafblower guard or missile-spam-space wolves on occasion, but normally only after checking with their opponant. It's normal to have a strong, but balanced/unspammy/a tad fluffy list.


I've started keeping written notes now. I've got a notebook for the tourne I'm going to next weekend and I'll keep notes on the mistakes I make in the hope of getting these lessons stuck in my head.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Juvieus Kaine wrote:It almost sounds like you're playing the wrong army, actually...

Bear with me. You say that you get carried away with killing the opponent. Why not make this your army's strength? Could take a lot of khorne bezerkers (assuming you play CSM) or you switch to say an Ork army. Utilise the killing aspects of said army and enjoy the carnage you can cause

My new army is DoA blood angels, and I'm looking forward to trying them out as soon as I get them painted enough to differentiate the units. I hope they're more suited to the style of gameplay I guess I naturally lean towards: recklessness

I can se why people fear the list, you have 2 vindicators in a 1500 game. No matter what armie you play the potensial in a vindicator is just bad. AP 1, 2d6 pick higest armour penetration, str 10 (takes tanks and T5 instant kills) and they are good vs horde. Obliterators also help vs mec.

I also like your troops. CSM used to be the best basic unit until spacewolves came around.

Edit: Your next army is also a power armour army? If you like reklesnes then you should be playing Ooooooorks! Also, bying the Asault on black recah gives you units you can convetr to chaos (painting a red 8 pointed star on them.)

You could try making battle reports, they help me notice when I/my opponent make stupid mistakes.

If you can find an experienced player to have a training 'game' with you it may help, have them ask "and why did you do that?" after every move and maybe let you track back if you make a massive mistake.

I get carried away with doing everything at once,

I have found a good way of doing things is to work with each unit in turn as you move from left to right across the battlefield. Start with your left-most unit, decide what/where you want it to do and execute the move. Then move to the next one. Alternatively you can just work down your army list. Discipline is key here. I know in many situations that Rhino squad will be screaming at you to let them charge those gretchin but stay focused - remember your models arent going anywhere and in friendly games you will have plenty of time.
Work systematically thropugh your units giving each a goal/focus that suits them best. Practice and patience willl help with this

spreading my forces out,

Can you clarify more on this? Its very situational, I can see it as both a good and bad thing. If you mean you have one Rhono squad far left and one far right but theres nothing on the far right then yes its probably not optimal.

not focus firing,

Why arent you focus firing? Is it related to impatience and just picking the juiciest yet not optimal target? Are you firing piecemeal? If so take a moment to ask why. Why arent you neutralising those long fangs at the back with your fire if you know your oppoents hth squads are at least two turns away etc.

doing stupid things like blocking my vindicators line of sight with a rhino, or putting my obliterators on a hill to get a good shot, only next turn to lose all of them to lascannons from all across the board.

Slowing down will help with this aswell as placing a unit and then reviewing it a short time later. So place the vindi behind the Rhino, then place all your other guys and then go back to the vindi and review it. Remember your subconsious brain is working just as hard as your consious, similar to an exam, you might not know the answer immediatly so skip to the next question, let the mind work on things and then go back to it. It'll flow much better.

I frequently get carried away with killing and drive my troops away from objectives to hold the fray, only realising when they're stuck in combat what a mistake I've made.

See above, discpline and practice can help with this. Take a unit, identify what its best at, then choose a unit it can fight best. Dont just charge headlong for the sake of it. The unit you charge may not be the best one/a threat/relevant. Above all stay focused on the objectives 100%. They ultimately determine if you win or lose. Last turn of the game, why expose those obliterators to that Leman Russ in a KP game? If you're sitting on an objective why charge off against that immobilsed Falcon? etc etc. Take 2 minutes, deep breath and ask yourself "ok what is the mission here and what are the best decisions I can make to achieve it. Will what Im thinking help to achieve this?"

I find this frustrating, because I'm not like this in with other skills/subjects. I'm a fast learner and always have been, don't have difficulty with maths or remembering the rules or anything like that. So it's tough to suck at something that I really want to be good at.

You obviously have a lot of skills that can help in Warhammer but you arent applying what you know to be right. I think overall you need a little more discipline and focus and to take things systematically rather then "what you feel/enjoy". Sometimes in games the most boring or defensive moves are the best.

Some of the best training is going to a friend's house (or vice-versa) and just play a friendly game.

You can both talk about what happening and realize what mistakes you're making. Also, take plenty of time taking your turn, and only finish it when you're confident that everything is where you want it to be. Another good idea is to prioritize EVERYTHING on the field from least to most deadly to your force. That'll help you in the moving and shooting phase.

So, grab some brews and a few friends and have some good, friendly competition.

Thanks for that detailed breakdown ratius. It really helped. I think you're right, the key issue is just taking the time to think more, or slowing down. I should just take a minute each turn to plan my moves. I need to try and take the whole board into account, rather than each unit individually and try to think of my army as a cohesive unit rather than 6 separate things.

I'm hoping at this upcoming Tourny that I can learn a lot, as it's my first real tourny and I'll get 5 games in over the weekend. Each 1.5k game is 2.5 hours as well, so there's a ton of time for me to think slower.

You can ask from your opponent that you could play each others armies. That way you can see how your opponent plays csm and what he/she does wrong. Also dont be so rush, time is strong allie in 40k and you must see to the future, you must think: "what my opponent is going to do if I put this on there?" and so on.
That would help.

I think quite a bit of your problems might lie in how few units you have. 6 effective fire platforms make for an underwhelming army, especially since 3 of them are basically rhino marines that suck a little less than C:SM in CC. Not sure what to tell you than to break your squads into 5 mans, don't pay for PFs (which suck on sarges, even chaos ones), don't pay for sarges (too expensive for little benefit), don't pay for icons (too expensive, for dubious benefit).

One option that many chaos players neglect is the fact that their rhinos can have combi weapons or havoc launchers. Doesn't sound like much, but having a havoc launcher, combi plasma, or combi melta on their transports gives you firing options you can't normally afford.

130 pts for 5 CSM with melta, riding in a rhino with combi melta is a good unit. 2 melta shots, for a total cost half of your 10 man PF 2 melta squad. Means you can take more of them. Or how about 5 plague guys, 2 meltas, rhino with combi. Costs 180, compared to the 300+ points you are currently spending.

Chaos marines already cost way too much, without the options that codex marines get. Why make them more expensive taking larger than needed units full of marginal or bad war gear when you can MSU? Chaos is already an elite army, making 3 mini deathstars is just going to get you killed.

I don't think your win percentage will get better doing the same thing over an over, when your list is pretty flawed. Being able to shoot at only 6 targets a turn, assuming you even have range, means you won't even beat many peoples 1000 point armies. You desperately need to change your list to have more units, you just don't have enough fire platforms.

Ha! My percentage is twice as bad, roughly 1 win for every 8 losses. Its all good. As far as I'm concerned, every time I get curbstomped I find things I could do differently. I used to never win. Now I win once in a blue moon. Progress is progress I always say!

but it sounds like you're doing everything right, as far as taking notes, making improvements and all that jazz goes. So don't sweat it.

ok, so you think the problem is with my list? I mean, maybe I've become stuck in my box and I often feel that too few units is a problem. I find regularly that those PFs in my squads take out HQs, dreads and vehicles but they are expensive.

I'll try stripping down a list on paper tonight. You think more rhinos, non-naked, smaller squads of troops with more special weapons?

Does anyone else agree, because I've never heard this before. I always thought you should run your rhinos naked and not have squads without fists (when you're fighting in the 12" range).

If you keep playing games but not improving, it seems likelly that you're not being critical of your performance.

Meaning: why did you lose? Why (when you win) do you succeed? What armies give you the most trouble? What units?

Look at what units you have at various points in the game: what do you wish you had more of? Less of?

Your list isn't super optimized, but it's also a pretty solid list. While it's easy to fix, I'm not sure that's the problem.

Put your vindi's in front, oblits off to the sides, in cover. Vindi's move 6" every turn forward and shoot. Rhino's trundle up behind and don't counterassault until the enemy reacts to your Vindi's (usually turn 2-3).

Oblits stay put the whole game and shoot from where they are.

Oblits on the sides, making fire lanes that force the opponent into your vindi's, then on turn 3, your boys in the rhinos rush out and get stuck in.

Don't chase, don't deviate from the plan, and you'll never have to worry about blocking your line of sight.

It depends what your likely to face.

If i see a unit without a powerfist, i laugh, as it is a prime candidate for a wraithlord charge as normal S:4 marines can't hurt it at all. But against most opponents it isn't needed. Krak grenades are enuogh to take out most vehicles, and there should be a nice amount of melta armed marines. Against dreads the fist is useful, if you face them alot then take a fist on one unit and place it so they are more likely to recieve a dread charge than anyone else.

Also Rhinos go down quite easily if the enemy wants them to, AV11 doesn't stand upto much and even a poor roll can shake or stun them, so investing in expensive upgrades isn't generally a good idea IMO, i usually only go for a dozer blade to avoid those pesky 1's when moving through terrain. As crashing through a ruin is generally not expected.

You've got the right idea with making notes. But during games perhaps create some sort of checklist.

Vindicator - Does it have LOS? Is it likely to be in range? Is it obscured from enemy heavy weapons?
Rhion - Should i pop smoke? Does it BLOS to my other units? Can i move 6" and fire out of the top hatch instead of moving 12" and disembarking?
Oblits - Am i in cover? Do i have a clear LOS?

Eventually you should have a checklist for each unit, and it should represent your units short-comings and common difficult choices.
Eventually you'll memorise this list and apply it without having to think about each move too much.

Once you do think and eliminate the majority of silly mistakes than can be made, THEN consider changing your army. Once your force starts pulling its weight properly you can see more clearly what it lacks.

Very good advice on the checklist idea.

lunarman wrote:ok, so you think the problem is with my list? I mean, maybe I've become stuck in my box and I often feel that too few units is a problem. I find regularly that those PFs in my squads take out HQs, dreads and vehicles but they are expensive.

I'll try stripping down a list on paper tonight. You think more rhinos, non-naked, smaller squads of troops with more special weapons?

Does anyone else agree, because I've never heard this before. I always thought you should run your rhinos naked and not have squads without fists (when you're fighting in the 12" range).

When I play SoB they never had anything other than double melta guns, and faith backing them up. Chaos are better in CC, and don't have to go with full squads like sisters do, and pay less for their rhinos.

On the fist issue: do the math on how effective fists are. You spend 40 pts to get a fist (champ upgrade +fist) on a 15 pt model (which is 55 pts total) He gets 2 attacks base. 1 hits on average. 5/6 times it wounds with no saves but invuls. Many enemy HQs have invuls, many UNITS have invuls (TH/SS termies, or even DE wyches). Fists are wasted on units like this. Killing HQs in CC isn't all that important TBH. You can kill them with shooting too, or by running their unit down. Beatstick HQs are becoming less common (as more people realized how bad they are). Fists vs dreads have really dismal numbers: 1 hit, 4 to glance, 5 to pen, then you need a 5 to destroy. Not Good Odds. If you get assaulted by a dread, give up the unit for lost, but at least you have twice as many to lose! Against vehicles, squad comes with krak nades, most vehicles (like 95 percent) have rear armor 10, and the ones that don't usually have AV 14 (which fists suck against). Krak is good enough for AV 10.

I'll work on a quick list for you, see how you like it.

1500:

Chaos sorcerer: MoS Warptime, mount of slaanesh ~ 160

5 chosen: 2 melta, 2 flamers, rhino W/havoc launcher ~ 180
5 chosen: 2 melta, 2 flamers, rhino W/havoc launcher ~ 180

5 noise marines: blastmaster, rhino w/havoc launcher ~ 190
5 Plague marines: 2x melta guns, rhino w/havoc launcher ~ 185
5 Plague marines: 2x melta guns, rhino w/havoc launcher ~ 185
5 CSM: flamer rhino w/ havoc launcher ~ 130

AutoLas predator ~ 145
AutoLas predator ~ 145

That is 6 havoc lauchers for infantry control, 4 lacannons and 2 auto cannons for long range anti tank, a blast master for anti marine and related fun, 8 melta guns, 4 on infiltrating units, 5 flamers, a beaststick character with warptime (which can assault like cav with 6 attacks on the charge at high initiative) and 20 scoring marines.

I'd profer using your own list first whilst implementing the improvements/suggestions before changing things up.
That way you can see if its the tactics/habits that was the problem or your list.
ie if you faceroll with notas list then it may be your original that was lacking.

I don't like messing with other people's lists (feel like you're just telling them "Who cares what -you- like! copy my own army!), but a few tweaks on yours may yeld better results without that many changes.

You may have too many plague marines. I love them, but it's usually better to have two squads of 7 rather than a big blobb of them, since you can only get 2 special weapons anyway.

With those points, you may want to pump your Lord a bit. with his higher WS, a power weapon, Lightning claws or even a PF make the most of what you already have.

I like that you use large units of CSM, but since you are marking them as Khorne, they are trying to be a bit too versatile, which in this game usually means they cost more than they should. CSM are very handy, having a CCW and bolt pistol as default gear in addition to the bolter. With a large unit, you'll already have a good number of attacks. So you might want to get the Slaanesh mark instead of Khorne, to make your hits count before other MeQs. Less enemies hitting back means a more survivable unit! disregard this if you don't play many MeQs in your local games.

Since you have some Icons, you -may- also want to get some lesser daemons! Especially if the games there are fluffy and averse to netlists as you describe. Deepstriking an accurate unit that can charge instantly, even a small one, can help you fix a msitake or turn the tide of a fight that has bogged down.

But enough talking about list changes; that was already more than intended. You should try to organize your style and set priorities. What enemy units need to die? What units of yours need to be protected and live! Ask yourself that every turn and see what you can do to make it happen.

Also, a personal hint: Bait your opponents! Many times you can offer them a target that feels dangerous but is not the real threat you are going to hit them with on your turn, and they will take it.

Deploy your rhinos and your vindicators on opposite sides of the board, or keep the rhinos near scenery so that its not really them blocking vindi shots (but the scenery). That makes for a less cluttered firing range.

How about something like this:

I've tried to take ideas from both of you, whilst keeping the flavour of my warband (they're khornate renegades focusing on martial skill (like the Blood Pact) rather than death and gore). My plague marines are heavily armoured marines, with shields and such.

lord, fist, combi plasma = 125

5 chosen, 5 meltas, rhino = 175

5 csm, melta, rhino with combi-melta = 130
5 csm, melta, rhino with combi-melta = 130
5 csm, melta, rhino with combi-melta = 130
5 Plague Marines, 2 plasmas, Rhino = 180
5 Plague Marines, 2 plasmas, Rhino = 180

2 oblits = 150 pts
2 oblits = 150 pts
2 oblits = 150 pts
= 1500

I don't know though, it just seems to me as though that list isn't terribly scary. A few shots and those marines squads will be running, and they're not going to be killing anything in assault. Once the meltas have been fired they're just 4 boltguns and that's not scary to anyone.

At least 6 oblits is frightening, and more reliable than vindicators.

Thoughts?

So, I'm going to agree with the people who have been saying that it's not your list to blame. I actually like the one you were using more than this new one.

My guess is that the problem you're having by this point probably isn't a tactical one, but a strategic problem. You're focusing on exposing units and having them killed, and other tactical "errors" that are seeing your units destroyed. Whether something was an error or not isn't if something died or not, but what it did to contribute to completing your objectives.

You talk about doing a bunch of different things with a bunch of different units in a bunch of different ways all at once. What it sounds like you're missing most of all is a strategic plan on turn 1.

For the next couple of games, I'd bring a little post-it note with these questions on it:

1.) what must I do to win the game?
2.) which units are best able to complete that objective?
3.) what do the rest of my units need to kill to allow the primary units to do their job?

If you are able to answer these questions appropriately, you'll be able to come up with a plan for victory. While the best generals don't need to follow the plan rigidly, you're not there yet. You're at the point where coming up with a good plan and following it set-piece is probably going to yield you much better results than having lots of flexibility, but not having any plan at all.

Once you get into the habit of always moving and shooting units for the purpose of your strategic aim, you'll find yourself making a lot fewer mistakes by default, and knowing better when to take risks and when to avoid them.

Read battle reports and the Army lists and tactics forum on Dakka actually. it really helped me to get better. I used to be the guy who put powerfists on devastator sergeants.

Battle reports really help because they allow you to see the mistakes others made and see the game from an objective point of view.

The checklist is a great idea but i wouldnt just write down your mistakes but also major successes if sumthing works unbelievably well write it down so you forget to use tactic when a similar situation arives

The one thing I would be careful about with writing down a list of your choices and what the end result was is to also make sure to write down how the die rolling went.

If you make a decision and it worked spectacularly, it could just have been that you were really lucky, and that next time you make that decision things will go much worse. Likewise, poor die rolling can easily kill even the best plans. You don't want to not do something smart just because it failed badly once or twice.

lunarman wrote:Thanks for that detailed breakdown ratius. It really helped. I think you're right, the key issue is just taking the time to think more, or slowing down. I should just take a minute each turn to plan my moves.

Why don't you make yourself a checklist of the things you need to do? Just make some index cards and check them before each phase. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself friendly reminders.
Something kind of like this..

Objectives
* How many do I want near me? How many do I want near him?
* Where do I want the game to be centered on? Where are good fire lanes for me?
* Do I really want to go first (We don't always want to)

Deployment
* Does my opponent have any scout-move destroyers
* Should I castle my forces during deployment (best used vs fast armies)
* Where are the objectives -- how can I get to where they need to be?
* Am I leaving an objective?

Movement
* Have I marked every unit that moved (use a penny or something)
* What is the goal of a particular unit? Why do I want to move it?
* Will it be in assault range of the enemy if I move it there?
* Will I block LOS from a friendly if I move it?

Shooting
* Have I marked every unit that shot (use a penny or something)
* What are the target priority lists, ie, what do I need to kill
* Do I really want to shoot before assaulting?

Assault
* Where do I want to consolidate for the best outcome?
* How do I want to place my models when I assault

I found it was really helpful for me to make lists with other armies and play them so I could get a feel for what I could face. Knowing your opponents' capabilities in 40k is almost as important as knowing your own, and there's no better way to do that than making lists for other armies and playing as them on Vassal or by proxying/borrowing models.

Arg.

I was going to write a very long post, and had started it, but three meetings later and a couple million dollars being spent on equipment and materials, I'm harried, its Friday afternoon and you get this instead:

If you want to get better, play against better people than you and ask them for feedback during and after the game. If you're not familiar with Vassal, check out vassal40k.info. You can play 40k on the internet. Get familiar with the system, then send me a PM here to set up a game sometime.

I can't claim to be the best 40k player in the world because at this point no one can....but I'm as close as anyone can claim to being up there. I'd be happy to help - you wouldn't be the first person I've given lessons to, and I *much* prefer people looking to improve over people who don't believe that they *can* improve because luck governs 40k. Get acquainted with Vassal, get Skype (voicechat) and a working headset, and I'll give you a world-class tutoring session.