palladin units

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**DarthSpader**

Pretty simple question. has anyone considered using a 10 man diversifed palladin squad? with an apothicary and diffrent uses of mastercrafting, plus weapon loadouts its possible for a 10 man diversified palladin unit with FNP. the points price tag is HUGE since each palladin is 55pts a piece... but with a 2 in 5 special weapon choice, mastercraft options on everything, and free halbreds/hammers... well.

so what are the thoughts on a unit like this? what about a 6-7 man unit with an attached char? would they be something to fear, or simply an over priced useless unit that has no hope of making its points back?

**DarkHound**

Definitely the latter.

**kir44n**

10 paladins, coming in at something on the order of 550-ish points, would be a dream come true to an opposing IG player. for 420pts, I could throw on the table 3 Vendetta's (with HB) for 9 TW Lascannon shots + 18 HB shots. Medium to poor luck sees roughly half termies gone, with good luck 1 shotting the squad. For the remainder 130 points, I could pick up a vet squad with 3 plasma for more termie-hunting fun.

Would love to see that many "invincible" points sitting out to be shot

**Culler**

It's way way too many points in one unit short of apocalypse mainly because they're slow. There's not a transport available for 10 terminators. Their optimal unit size IMO is 5. With upgrades like the apothecary, a couple warding staves, and some heavy weapons they're already into the 450-point range. Put them in a land raider so they can actually get where they're going and you're looking at 700 points invested in basically one thing, which is too much in 2k or lower games IMO. They're dead 'ard though in assault.

**SweetLou**

my army consists of draigo, 10 paladin superunit, 3 telporting knight walkers, cortez and a bunch of henchman...............

hasnt lost yet

scout shunt the walkers to the enemy for some first turn destroying of tanks while cortez and the henchmen aim for ALL AP2 AND 3 weapons, then DS draigo..........it works

something like this at 2k

draigo 275
cortez 100

10 paladins, apothecarie,6 halberds, 4 hammers, psy ammo, 645

10 acolytes, jokaro X2 110
10 acolytes, jokaro X2 110
10 acolytes, jokaro X3 145

dreadknight w teleporter 205
dreadknight w teleporter 205
dreadknight w teleporter 205

will it win games? mebe it will mebe it wont, but it IS fun

**Grey Templar**

Paladins are decent units, but they really want a high point game to be effective.

something on the order of 3k would see them being useful and scary.

a fully diversified squad is 760 pts with the possability of being more expensive.

actually just puts them on par with Nob Bikers for cost. drop a few and squeeze in a Landraider for them to ride in.

**DevianID**

I dont think you need an apothicary in a paladin unit. The things that kill paladins are either ap2 or s8+. Both also ignore the optional FnP. So save your 75 points.

Draigo + 10 pallies with 4 pcannons clocks in at 905. This unit costs a lot, true, but unless the enemy has more than 2 s8 ap2 shots at a time Draigo basically absorbs everything. Combine with a scout move from draigo, and on turn 1 your already 12 inches up the board.

Vendettas deal about 2 wounds with lascannons at a time. So since the first goes on Draigo, you are only threatening 1 paladin at a time with vendettas. In 1 turn 3 vendettas should kill 2 paladins. 16 psycannon shots in response should kill anything you have. And dont forget that you should be supporting this unit with the rest of your army. AKA, as sweetlou says, either dreadknights or dreadnaughts with psy autocannons. Those will quickly silence vendettas and manticores, the 2 vehicles guard have that scare paladins. After that, the IG must risk meltas, which mostly bounce off Draigo and cause the meltas to be within counterattack range.

**Grey Templar**

without the Apothecary they actually become semi-vulnerable to small arms fire.

with him they become immune to it for all practical purposes.

if your running the 10 man squads he is definitly worth while.

**DevianID**

What small arms are you worried about Grey Templar?

If your hit with 20 bolter wounds, an over the top insane amount to wound with, then you only lose a paladin 1/36 times. So 20 bolter wounds averages 3.3 unsaved wounds. The chances of these wounds being on the same model are very, very slim.

Now, if less than 30 marines are shooting you at a time, say its 10 marines, then you are looking at 6ish wounds, of which you will fail 1. The next 6ish small arms wounds you take, you simply dont put on the wounded model. In this way, 10 bolter marines need 5 salvos in order to have a 1/6 chance of killing a paladin. 50 marines, 100 shots and only a 1/6 chance of taking out a paladin.

So with the entry of putting down a paladin with small arms being 100 shots for a 1/6 chance, why is it you need feel no pain?

**Grey Templar**

the way i roll, you want extra security

**Jackster**

Grey Templar wrote:the way i roll, you want extra security

Interesting coming from a person who generally gets good rolls?

**Grey Templar**

Well, i roll pretty well, except for Terminator armor.

i make 5++ saves like it's going out of style, 2+ i can't make to save my life.

**EmilCrane**

Grey Templar wrote:the way i roll, you want extra security

this...

besides, the number one killer of terminators at my LGS is massed small arms fire, not plasma and PW

**schadenfreude**

S8 AP2 pie is the problem.

IG has LR Demolishers, Marbo, Demo vets, and SWS demo squads. Worse case scenario would be SWS demo squads reserved in a vendetta, followed by a demolisher in reserve. They don't need to start on the table because the paladins will be getting up close and personal with the rest of the IG army.

BA with 3 fast vindicators would also do the trick.

Mech Eldar players who overspend on fire dragons won't have much of a problem either. If the GK player is counting on henchmen to fill out the rest of the list mechanized dire avengers will have something to shoot at.

**DarthSpader**

ok but what about a 7 man unit with a LRC or something? attach a char, upgrade the apoth... could be a pretty kick ass deathstar unit. im just wondering about if they should stick back and kill with thier psycannons and s5 bolters, or charge for the melee kills?

**notabot187**

Well, mass small arms fire is what people currently use to kill termies, due to the popularity of TH/SS versions. With 2 wounds and a bad ward save, people will divert heavy weapon fire from tanks to shoot at paladins.

I personally like paladins, but I'm probably not going to use them short of 2k games, they just soak too many points when GKs are scraping just to fill the basic roles in enough depth.

**schadenfreude**

Also going to point out they don't need Draigo to be their grandmaster.

A regular grandmaster with rad grenades and 3 servo skulls is about 75 points cheaper.

Grand strategy can turn them into troops.

With a regular grandmaster or Draigo psychic communnion can +/-1 to reserves rolls, and grand strategy can make give Paladins scout so that they can outflank. Even if you don't outflank if the other side sets up first knowing that paladins can outflank can seriously mess with someone's deployment choices.

Servo skulls mean they can DOA style deep strike next to the servo skulls. With the option to both deep strike or outflank Paladins don't really need a land raider.

**Jaon**

I think, in numbers, terminators turn out to be more efficient. But thats only math.

In theory, paladins can hold a position far longer, and dont lose their special weapons often. They are a psychological nightmare for your enemy, scaring him into making irrational moves and firing at the wrong things. Its hard to ignore 10 paladins, and it ruins battleplans when 10 scoring paladins land on an objective.

The only problem is when you come up against something designed to kill them. 5 TH/SS may be completely destroyed by 10 paladins, but they will also claim a huge toll of them. Plasma vets are cheap and suicidal, but will kill. Lascannon heavy weapons teams, obliterators, executioners. All these units are very effective against paladins.

**Falconlance**

Played my first game against grey knights last Friday.. In addition to Paladins, at 2000 points this guy had 2 double autocannon dreads, a dreadknight, 2 full size strike squads in rhinos, and a full interceptor squad. I imagine the plan was for them to cheer on his 7 man paladin squad with attached grandmaster while they strutted heroically out and won the game.

Turns out two STR9 AP2 small blasts and sixteen Melta guns take 2 turns to fry them as they cower inside ruins keeping an objective warm.

I think equal points in regular old terminators would serve much better.

**DarthSpader**

i devised an all termie list, that involves 2 units of 6 palladins with halbreds and 2 psycannons w/psyammo. a libby joins both with hh and MoT. the unit strikes at init 6 with str 7, and has 2 hammers for tanks. havent actually played with them yet, but if they work well i might continue them. otherwise rest of army is 4 x 5 man termie squads with halbreds, psycannon and 1 hammer.

32 models in the army featuring 9 psycannons and 9 hammers.

workable?

**Kommissar Kel**

SweetLou wrote:10 acolytes, jokaro X3 145

This unit is illegal.

If you need help figuring out why:

Spoiler:

**Falconlance**

DarthSpader wrote:i devised an all termie list, that involves 2 units of 6 palladins with halbreds and 2 psycannons w/psyammo. a libby joins both with hh and MoT. the unit strikes at init 6 with str 7, and has 2 hammers for tanks. havent actually played with them yet, but if they work well i might continue them. otherwise rest of army is 4 x 5 man termie squads with halbreds, psycannon and 1 hammer.

32 models in the army featuring 9 psycannons and 9 hammers.

workable?

I don't think psycannons can take psybolt ammo. Theres a list of what can be equipped with it, and its all the mundane guns all the other marines can take.

I can see this list putting the hurt on certain armies like orks and tyranids, but if you end up against an opponent with a bunch of lascannons, or emperor forbid, demolisher cannons, how do you expect to make it close enough to smash the enemy to bits?

You might consider those servo skulls and deep striking.. youll have to suffer a mean shooting phase before you can get in there and break stuff, but if you have enough survivors to get in there and wreck the big guns you might be able to pull it off.

**metalgear1313**

I'm sorry, i realize its a long shot but in reality, i have to agree with some of the comments made. i have seen termies survive some pretty high damaging weapons, (meltas and lascannons included) but when it comes right down to it, massed weapon fire, of any kind, tends to cause more damage to people then few high powered shots. my motto for termies is, " the more dice he/she throws, the more likely the hit that odd 1 to lose. for my paladins, apothecaries are a must, it doesn't hurt to have a little security against the DREADED ONE!

**notabot187**

I tried a unit of paladins today, 5 strong, 2 cannons, no apothecary. They didn't make it into combat because they killed everything they shot at. They really didn't like that lascannon shot fired at them, it instant vaped one, the only casualty from that unit. I was please by its performance, and at 315 pts, it worked pretty well. Only reason why I ran it is because it averaged out to 157 per cannon, as opposed to 225 per cannon that regular termies get.

So I was actually pretty surprised by how well the 2 cannons worked, took out some armor and decimated a unit of death company. I'm still not convinced that either paladins or regular termies are worth it, but a small diverse unit of paladins worked pretty well for me. I'm pretty sure part of that had to do with not actually getting shot at much, because they certainly couldn't survive serious firepower.

**Brother-Thunder**

Another thing I think most people here are overlooking is the prevelance of cover for the paladins to hide in.

4+ is good for soaking up some heavy weapons fire, and going to ground with scoring paladins forces the delemia of shooting at something with the durability of TH/SS against lascannons and about 3 times as durable against small arms fire, or assault paladins.

Combine this with a librarian using The Shrouding and it becomes a 3+ standard. Either pur EVERY weapon you have into those paladins, or see them hit your lines and annihilate you.

**Fafnir**

If you're going to take Paladins and deathstar the crap out of them, they'll need support. Paladins are a mighty glacier, they are incredibly hardy and absolutely terrifying in close combat, but they'll have trouble getting into combat without some help. Interceptors and teleporting Dreadknights come to mind here, popping heavy-weapon threats first turn if possible. Likewise, the Vindicare is capable of easily popping threatening units like Vindicators and Valkyries.

I had a 2000 point game against Tyranids a few days ago where an 8 man unit of Paladins, a Grand Master with Rad and Psychotroke grenades, and a Librarian ended up wiping out around 1500 points of the opponent's army suffering only two casualties (one Paladin from the Swarm Lord, and the Librarian who died to perils of the warp). Once these guys get stuck in, they're near unstoppable. So if you're going to run them, then build them big and strong, and build the rest of your list around getting them stuck in where they need to be.

**rovian**

@ jaon

oh their on the obejective scary a glorfied camp unit my armies will eat it alive lascannon they could be good in 3k and would also be scary but short of that not very good .

oh my god he' got pallidans ahh i lost a sqaud of 5 Gh oh no whatever will i do I'll probably have post traumatic stress.
Rovian

**Falconlance**

rovian wrote:@ jaon

oh their on the obejective scary a glorfied camp unit my armies will eat it alive lascannon they could be good in 3k and would also be scary but short of that not very good .

oh my god he' got pallidans ahh i lost a sqaud of 5 Gh oh no whatever will i do I'll probably have post traumatic stress.
Rovian

**Brother-Thunder**

rovian wrote:@ jaon

oh their on the obejective scary a glorfied camp unit my armies will eat it alive lascannon they could be good in 3k and would also be scary but short of that not very good .

oh my god he' got pallidans ahh i lost a sqaud of 5 Gh oh no whatever will i do I'll probably have post traumatic stress.
Rovian

Yes, ignore the interceptors that just shunted behind your lines and the psi-riflemen dreadnoughts taking aim at your transports to put ALL high S low AP fire into my paladins with a 3+ cover. Brilliant idea.

They are expensive, but they are beastly in combat. They suffer the same thing Incubi do, they are REALLY good at what they do, so you shoot them first.

**metalgear1313**

I have to agree, if you plan on surviving a paladin rush, youd better bring some extra things to cover your backside, else youlll find yourself surrounded by that interceptor squad with nothing but a handful weak shooty guys and a prayer to survive.

as for the paladin unit itself, you'd be hard pressed to beat one to death. if you have high S low AP weapons concentrate on the unit, then bam, use the cover save. the librarian would prove invaluable in this role.

so i guess my next question would be, what exactly kills a paladin squad most effectively? are they the new gods of survivability?