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1. Imperium summons Chaos. Imperium wins.
2. Borg would get owned. Try to adapt to a boltgun round, yeah, I'd like to see that.
3. Kirk gets distracted by daemonette boobies.

And Roddenberry and co sucks. I point thee to Wesley Crusher, 2/3rds of Voyager, and the entirety of DS9.

Crusher was a concession to the network, DS 9 wasn't soley Roddenberry and had to many people trying to push the story in too many directions, Voyager wasn't Roddenberry's, and neither was Enterprise.


I reply to your three.


Kirk deploys the genesis device. Federation wins.

Kirk comes up with new tactic that will take a year to work, The IoM waits for orders that will take one hundred years to get there. Federation wins

Borg has personal body shields, Bolters be come useless after first four shots. Federation sits back and watches until it is time to deploy the nano-viruses. Federation wins.


Now I was nice about Abnett and you smear the name of Roddenberry. (Gloves off)Yeah I love all those movies based off of Abnetts work...Oh wait there aren't any.

I do remember something that looked like it was made with a handycam and styrofoam armour though.

xiophen: I humbly thank you for your awesome paper right there. Seriously. it's awesome. Hehehe....I need to hurry up with the saint then.....haven't finished it yet, but your quotes make me hopeful for whats coming.

Focusedfire: I'm sorry to say, but I hate gene Roddenberry. I love trek, but I hate gene's happy lil communist vision of the fed. =P seriously, the fed makes the tau look capitalist!

focusedfire wrote:Kirk deploys the genesis device. Federation wins.

Chaos > genesis device, borg, and Kirk combined.

@ChrissWWII- I don't hate Roddenberry.

I hate the politically correct thing that next generation became. Its PC, super socialist theme, and complete lack of anything resembling testosterone outside of Ryker annoys the heck out of me. I'll still watch it for some of the Q episodes and the Klingon Civil War. Both were good stories that didn't paint the screen socialist pink. Outside of those I'll watch Kirk, new or old.


I like the original the best of the series and I like the Wrath of Khan best of the old stuff. The New Trek Movie I loved.

FocusedFire

I agree with you there. Q is one of the best chars in ST, and is one of the best ideas the Star Trek writers have ever had. Of course, they screwed him over in VOY and DS9.......but John de Lancie is still a great actor.

And the reason I hate Roddenberry, is because I blame him for all those things themes that screwed up TNG.

The new Trek Movie I kind of view it as proof of the fact that people don't like the naive, living room version of Trek, and would much prefer a kind of grimmer, darker version of Trek. I hope that means people would fething love a 40k movie.

xiophen42 wrote:heres just some information that might help with the debate:
just some info on the iom ship capabilities:

Sensors and sublight speeds:

The Saint Omnibus page 886
'Astropathicae report parameters verified. Perturbation reads at warp modulus eleven two nine nine seven, nine AU out, tracking cogents, Concordance estimated at ninety-three minutes. Awaiting confirmation"

As you can see the Iom fleet parked in orbit on arround Hereden detects in real time a chas fleet arriving some 9 aus in distance away thats roughly 74.85 light minutes away or 1,346,380,836.219 km away this again is a real times sensor feed.

No, they detect the emergence from the warp, which as you would expect they are set up to detect. Your quote does not prove that they can detect the actual ships.

FOr example in other abnett books it mentions that they have to estimate the size of the fleet by the warp "wake" they push ahead of them - not by actual inspection ofg th eships.

xiophen42 wrote:Beyond which we know that 40k space battles take place across hundreds of thousnads of Km to a million Km, again they receive live real time sensors information in regards to theses again this range easily make thier sensors ranghing from light seconds to light minuts in range.

Uh, no. There is no source stating they get *real time* sensor images - they certaiunly get sensor feeds, but neither your quote nor anything I have read states that these are real time.

xiophen42 wrote:So to answer the question yes Iom vessels have ftl sensors and wqill be capable of detecting startrek vessels traveling at pretty much any speed they travel. so no No Picard manuever. * though we will relate to that in a moment*

Uh, no. You have made an unsupported leap.

First, you assumed that detecting a warp emergence of a fleet == detecting the ships themselves. Secondly you assume that detecting a fleet emerging from warp (something an astopathicae would be HIGHLY attuned to) is equivalent to detecting a trek ship moving at warp speed.

And that second assumption has already been exposed many, manyt times. Your only HINT at detecting trek ships at warp is hoping that psykers can.

So, unti you can provide *proof* that they can detect ships at warp [and the closest you have to trek Warp are necrons ships, which Astropaths cant detect....] then your assumption is refuted.

xiophen42 wrote:JUst to touch on the combat ranges as well trek combat ranges normally are in the 10k Km with maximum photon torp and phaser ranges as quoting out as 40k. 40k space combat considers 10k kms as point blank range where teleports normally occur boarding parties etc happen. normal weapons ranges is 60 - 80k kms with weapons extending out to 150k kms and 300k km with fighters, bombers and torps having even further ranges.

Uh, no. Max range of a torp at 2268 was 300k km.[conincidentaly a light second] Later torps have higher ranges - the clas 6, in use with VOY, was 8m KM. Please show your "quote" showing a 40k km range - as Ive already put the MA quotes in showing something different.

Also phasers would not attentuate at distancfe, as they are collimated beams - they dont spread. So in theory they have a fairly long range, until hit by something. the "effective" range is the limit at which you can reliably hit something when you have a beam of light moving in a straight line [yes, yes, grav lensing, but effectively straight for what we are concerned with] against ships moving without caring about inertia.

xiophen42 wrote:As far as the supposed warp combat speed fo trek the only time wee see any 24th century trek battle with something faster then impluse speeds is the famous picard manuever. Every other combat we see is at impulse speeds. Impulse is again just factors of true light speed from the various trek cannon.

Full impulse is normally quoted 1/2c, but again doesnt have areal limit - it is just that they dont NEED speeds above that, as warp travel is so easy and safe.

xiophen42 wrote: nOw on to 40k combats speeds:

The Saint Omnibus page 887
Its vast engines cycling up to one tenth power, the frigate Berengaria moved away from Herodor, prowling forward into the interplanetary gulf.
*Snip ship description*
"We have broken orbit and are advancing to the advised modulus," Captain Sodak said quietly standing in the actuality sphere of the Berengaria's bridge.

FRom here we see a fleet go from an orbit to engage the chaos fleet 9 AU's away. FRom text we see the ships launching fighters 42 minutes later.

So far you have shown they are engaging a fleet light minutes away, this does not tell you the speed they move away at, and does not tell you the orbital speed they had - for erxample it could be a powered orbit, which is tighter to the planetary surface than the speed would normally imply.

xiophen42 wrote:Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor

*note thes e source quotes provides by Inquisitor Ryan at spacebattles.com

nosferatu1001 wrote:And this ignores phasing technology - moving out of phase [so you can neither detect nor interact with the object], through your hull and exploding within the plasma containment vessel [which is the temp of a sun 0- but torpedos can survive into the centre of a sun

TBH that wouldn't even matter, as even if the torpedo melts, the antimatter comes into contact with matter and goes boom.

It was more to ensure the reaction proceeds as expected, as they seem to get more power out of the AM reaction than the amount of A-matter invoilved suggests.

So people keep bringing up the inability of the IoM ships to deal with the more manuverable FoP crafts due to their own primitive methods of combat.

If they are so poor against this kind of threat, why are they able to engage and defeat both Eldar and Necron fleets, both of which are significantly faster than IoM ships both for ftl and sublight... Heck the necrons I believe have been described as having to slow down to engage fleets for bfg.

Also, let's say that the IoM cannot attack the fed ships while they remain at warp. The imperial commanders aren't stupid... They would just begin to attack starbases and planets, which would force the fleet to stop the strafing runs to at least try rescue and intercept missions before the stationary targets are annihilated.

Marrak - it takes days of travel to go for warp exit to attacking a planet. Read your fluff....

In addition - so what if Necron fleet s have to drop to sublight? We *know* fed ships dont.

Martrak: another misnomer Eldar do not have Ftl; the webway is still warp based, just walled off.

And, again, like the IoM they cannot attack anything in real space while in warp/webway. So being in there deosnt really help now, does it?

And just when this thread got pleasant again... :(

I notice you have a habit of ignoring arguments you have no defense against, and just going, "LALALALAL FTL LALALALALALA FTL LALALALA!" Again, even if we assume that Star Trek ships can strafe Imperial ships with impunity, there are simply not enough ships in the Federation and their weapons are not up to par to destroy Imperial ships fast enough to stop them destroying all of their bases and planets. And even if the Federation started likewise targeting Imperial bases/planets, again we have the discrepancy of the Imperium having far more planets, far more ships, and being far more used to annihilating all life from a planet's surface. Quantity has a quality all of its own. The Imperium literally has more planets than the Federation has ships by an order of magnitude. Conversely, the Imperium could throw a thousand ships at every Federation planet and still have some left over.

"Destroy the STC and they can't do anything"? All known STCs are archived by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe. With the relative amount of peace It would seem that the ST galaxy would have more available manpower.

I say the ST galaxy because the IoM would wage war against everything that crossed its path. This would bring in all know races and empires.

ST universe has the edge with cloaking warbirds and Klingon warriors Kicking SM buttocks.

Nosferatu: Once again, I have to notice that you like to downplay any example that demonstrates potential Imperial superiority. For one thing, we must assume the simplest possible solution when we don't know what exactly happened. You have to supply the evidence that the Imperial Fleet departing Hereodor used some kind of advantage to pick up that much speed that quickly. Otherwise, we assume that they left using only their engines.

Secondly, destroy the STC? That may cripple the AdMech....on the one forge world you destroyed it on. The sheer number of forge worlds means that destroying the STC on one wouldn't utterly and completely devastate the Imperium. Serve as a major annoyance, yes. Lots of people were pissed when Gryphonne IV fell, and LOTS more would be pissed if Ryza fell, but the Imperium wouldn't be destroyed. And Omegus is right with his quote. The Imperium has more ships than the Federation can throw and it'll only take one Astartes stirke cruiser or one big IG transport ship to take a Trek planet. Once Imperial ground forces are planetside any superiority in space the Fed may or may not have is moot. They wouldn't fire on their own planet.

Most importantly, I think you GROSSLY overestimate the power of Federation consumer technology. Power in the Federation isn't free. THat's physically impossible. It has to come from somewhere, and it seems that most of that somewhere is antimatter reactors, which need maintenance from highly trained technicians or they go boom, a constant supply of relatively rare dilithium and antimatter to keep it working. Plus, the Imperium consumes power at a rate the Federation can not comprehend. They have never seen an entire planet covered by towering cities or massive factory complexes. They would be hard pressed to supply enough power to the planet to give them 'free power'. And don't say that the Federation doesn't need their planet supply lines and everything else. They have shown that they have to stop off at supply station to replace things as simple as a 'dilithium matrix hatch' (at least I think that's it's name...) which appears to be nothing more than a large hunk of metal, but no doubt built to a higher degree of tolerance than the replicator can provide.
Additionally, replicators do not create food and other things out of nothingness. It needs what is referred to as 'raw foodstuff' to make its food. Not to mention, it is extremely energy wasteful, and is only useful in granting a crew a MASSIVE variety to a crew. (More examples of how Starfleet seems more like a pleasure line than a military ). Wouldn't it be a hundred times more pragmatic to not spend god knows how much energy on providing your crew every material desire they could want, and instead just carry regular food or rations? (hmmm, slaneesh might love replicators though.... )

And I also believe Martrak's point was that the Imperium has experience in dealing with highly manuverable enemies, so seeing Federation ships flit around like fragile butterflies would not be a huge surprise. They would simply flip open their Codex Imperialis to the section on fighting Eldar and use those tactics.

And....Nosferatu, there is no way in hell a photon torpedo can have a 690 gigaton payload. It is canon that a photon torpedo's warhead is 1.5 kg of antimatter, 1.5 kg of matter. Assuming 100% reaction effectiveness, this gives us a yield of 64 megatons. And this also assumes alot. It assumes that a) there will be 100% reactivity and b) all energy is put into the target. It is highly unlikely that there will be 100% reactivity, so that makes 64 megatons a theoretical high, unlikely to be reached in combat. Not to mention, since photon torpedoes are not shaped weapons half of all the energy they release is radiated uselessly into space. This means that at MAXIMUM assuming perfect reactivity, a photon torpedo will deliver 32 megatons to its target. A far cry from your 690 gigatons.

Now, when canon and real science contradict, I will go with real science, and that means that there is no magical yield enhancer in a photon torpedo. There is 1.5 kg of matter, 1.5 kg of antimatter. And before you say that means all of 40k is useless I'll say this. 40k does not attempt to explain how their technology works, only that it does. That means that somehow, someway, they've found a way to make whatever they have work, and we must assume that it does. On the other hand, Star Trek gives us real figures to work with, and those real figures let us extrapolate what happens with known laws. When the laws of physics and ST canon contradict, we must go with known laws of physics.


Edit: FocusedFire....I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. Please say you are. But if not...please remember we're not talking ST galaxy against the IoM. We're talking Federation against the IoM which is something totally different. We are also assuming each side has all resources available to it.

ChrisWWII wrote:
Now, when canon and real science contradict, I will go with real science, and that means that there is no magical yield enhancer in a photon torpedo. There is 1.5 kg of matter, 1.5 kg of antimatter. And before you say that means all of 40k is useless I'll say this. 40k does not attempt to explain how their technology works, only that it does. That means that somehow, someway, they've found a way to make whatever they have work, and we must assume that it does. On the other hand, Star Trek gives us real figures to work with, and those real figures let us extrapolate what happens with known laws. When the laws of physics and ST canon contradict, we must go with known laws of physics.

In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual a figure of 1,5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. Furthermore it is not clear if the 1,5 kg should be compared to the 200 isoton figure given on-screen, or the 25 isoton figure given in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.

Using standard physics, you can't travel faster than light, but in Star Trek they do. It's scifi, so using current physics to do the math isn't really a good way to disprove something in this kind of discussion.

Edit: From your argument Star Trek doesn't have FTL capability (since Einstein told us it is impossible). You are assuming everything we know right now is correct,
arguing about potential future developments is hard with that restriction. Humans knew the world was flat once too. That something is considered a fact does not make it universally true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe. With the relative amount of peace It would seem that the ST galaxy would have more available manpower.

I say the ST galaxy because the IoM would wage war against everything that crossed its path. This would bring in all know races and empires.

ST universe has the edge with cloaking warbirds and Klingon warriors Kicking SM buttocks.

Klingon wariors would get slaughtered by Space marines. 2 initially unarmed Human augments take control of a klingon bird of prey.
(These are Star trek genetically engineered humans, who were developed in the 20th century (yes, over 10 years ago ) in the star trek
universe, and further research was banned)

Accersitus, that kind of misses my point. ST says they have warp drive, and basically leaves it at that. That means they have some kind of ability to circumvent Einstein's speed limit, simply because they told us they do. However, antimatter reactions are something that we know and are fixed. Nothing will cause an atom of antimatter to react with any more force when it comes in contact with an atom of matter.

It's simply impossible to have 1.5 kg of antimatter and matter to react with the force you quote. No matter how densely you pack it 1.5 kg is 1.5 kg. That's a set amount of antimatter, and using 1:1 reaction rate we get 64 megatons as our maximum threshold

ChrisWWII wrote:Accersitus, that kind of misses my point. ST says they have warp drive, and basically leaves it at that. That means they have some kind of ability to circumvent Einstein's speed limit, simply because they told us they do. However, antimatter reactions are something that we know and are fixed. Nothing will cause an atom of antimatter to react with any more force when it comes in contact with an atom of matter.

It's simply impossible to have 1.5 kg of antimatter and matter to react with the force you quote. No matter how densely you pack it 1.5 kg is 1.5 kg. That's a set amount of antimatter, and using 1:1 reaction rate we get 64 megatons as our maximum threshold

Actually does it really matter. In all the arguements so far we have an unfettered IoM attacking a fettered SF, so a horrendous amount of ships keep being quoted as the deciding factor in the battle going to the IoM. Lets be fair and apply this to SF. No treaties are to be used against any technology shown to have been developed in the series?

So I will have a cloaked runabout, not a capital ship note but the SF equivalent of a car with a 64MT torpedo that can phase. I don't care what the defensive properties are of adamantium and I don't care about the yeild. A 64MT explosion within the hull of an IoM ship will hollow it out. (And SF get a load of rare metals for the next batch of weapons going through the replicators.)

If both sides are to be handicapped in the same way, then SF have a huge advantage in numbers over the couple of dozen IoM warships sent their way. Because the IoM can't send anymore than that without seriously weakening themseves against other threats. Or taking several years in which to make the administrative orders and amass the fleet. However, SF has that period of time in which to research and counteract any advantages. Remember non warp species can and do research the warp, take the Medusa? campaign and the aims of the Tau. They left with a shed load of info for analysis. What could SF do with the same info? Just as Nos' pointed out earlier.

Some of the canon quoted is quite frightening, and consistency is not readily apparent on either side. For example, can a phaser level a mountain, yes it can. How can we deduce that, well a hand phaser can disintegrate matter and ergo since a ships phaser is a massively scaled up copy of the same principle, it can also disintegrate matter. So from that we can deduce that a phaser battery can cause the same amount of damage as a lance. The problem is one variable, how much time does it take? People quote the damage caused from a quote that lances can level mountains and continents. Well so can a phaser the crux is how much time does it take? And is it ever detailed? I honestly dont know and anyone who does, please enlighten me. And SF conveniently forgets the latest technological inovation just in time for the next episode.

Chris I take your point about 1.5kg of antimatter, but to claim that because we know about antimatter today does not equal what we know about antimatter tomorrow, we can only accept what has been presented to us. Which is that the torpedo is capable of 690 GT.

Andrew

focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AndrewC wrote: A 64MT explosion within the hull of an IoM ship will hollow it out. (And SF get a load of rare metals for the next batch of weapons going through the replicators.)

Except we have examples of Imperial ships taking hits in the gigaton range and keep fighting. Really, you are just grasping at straws. And there is no indication the Federation uses replicators to create weapons if something as simple as a hatch requires a stop-over. There's a reason why they build ship docks instead of a huge friggin' replicator and just going "One star ship please, k thx".

focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe. With the relative amount of peace It would seem that the ST galaxy would have more available manpower.

I say the ST galaxy because the IoM would wage war against everything that crossed its path. This would bring in all know races and empires.

ST universe has the edge with cloaking warbirds and Klingon warriors Kicking SM buttocks.

WHAT? Your talking about The Imperium of man which is over 600 TRILLION PEOPLE. Not only that But the Imperium of man has the Greatest weapons, armor, and personnel ever. OK! The black templars took on a entire advance human species with only 76 men! Ok they were facing things that were very powerful ok? They won and they pwned their asses.
All the 40k books point to that the imperial warmachine is unbeatable. And it has never been defeated. (in that it hasn't fallen).
It's been close but that is from the inside.
THE ENTIRE ST GALAXY WOULD GET OWNED!
No chaos, no problems with warp travel in the ST galaxy= Unbeatable Imperial Navy.
There are billions of ships in the Imperium. BILLIONS.
The United Federation of Planets would not stand a chance. Even if they were on the offensive. The Imperium of man has mobile defence turrets surronding their planets. The UFP does not. OK?
Planet cracker sent. UFP planet destroyed.
OK the Imperium has millions of worlds. Millions. The UFP Does not have millions. Probably a couple hundred. And not only that but the entire galaxy we are not talking about. We are talking about the UFP not the Entire ST gaxaly.
If we wanted to compare who would win the 40k universe or the St universe.
40k would because of Chaos. So you can't say that the imperium would get owned! Because we have no idea how destructive the imperium is. There are so many untold stories about space warfare. The Battle for Terra. Which had the largest fleets ever known fighting each other. Was so titantic that it boiled the seas and destoried metropolis's. And not only that but it spanned the Entire Imperium. OK?? The ST Gaxaly only has one big war that does not have massive weapons of mass destruction shooting each other. No. They have lasers and Photo torpedoes. even if they did have a super weapon. How they going to equip every single ship? The imperium has standard armament to every ship.
END OF HATE!

AndrewC wrote:

Some of the canon quoted is quite frightening, and consistency is not readily apparent on either side. For example, can a phaser level a mountain, yes it can. How can we deduce that, well a hand phaser can disintegrate matter and ergo since a ships phaser is a massively scaled up copy of the same principle, it can also disintegrate matter. So from that we can deduce that a phaser battery can cause the same amount of damage as a lance. The problem is one variable, how much time does it take? People quote the damage caused from a quote that lances can level mountains and continents. Well so can a phaser the crux is how much time does it take? And is it ever detailed? I honestly dont know and anyone who does, please enlighten me. And SF conveniently forgets the latest technological inovation just in time for the next episode.

Chris I take your point about 1.5kg of antimatter, but to claim that because we know about antimatter today does not equal what we know about antimatter tomorrow, we can only accept what has been presented to us. Which is that the torpedo is capable of 690 GT.

Andrew

Andrew, 40k fluff clearly states that a single lance hit can destroy entire continents, while observation of starship level phasers fired in combat situations have never shown this level of firepower. This implies that a lance is capable of sending MUCH more power down its energy beam than a single phaser beam can. Sure, eventually a phaser can send as much energy as a lance, but it would take much more time than the lance.

Additionally, we know that the warhead fuel is antideutrium and deutrium. We also know how much energy the reaction of one atom of antideutrium with one atom of deutrium releases. Scaling this up gives us a figure of 64 megatons. There is no way that 1.5 kg of antimatter reacting with 1.5 kg of matter can result in 690 gigatons.

Not to mention, your argument is flawed in that you assume the Federation can preform this activity with enough quantity to defeat the Imperium, but please remember, what is the likelihood that the Romulans would share their cloaking technology? More importantly, does the Federation have the industrial capacity to churn OUT enough cloaking devices and ships to defeat the Imperium? THe answer is no.

Yeah chances of them getting the man power and the ships are 0.0000000000000000000000001% it would mean that every person in entire gaxaly has to have 100 Childern EACH. And maintain that for 2,000 years. and that will still not work. You can not become as powerful as the Imperium
Everyone keeps missing the point in that they have super armor, weapons, and personnel. YOU KEEP FORGETING THAT. FTL LALALALALA. Really. how many shots can you shoot that could level an entire planet. NONE!
Thats why the Imperium rarely misses with its guns. Because if they missed they would make someone's day miserable. If we were comparing Mass Effect VS. UFP I would say it would be a tie. you cannot compare a civilzation that is 36,000 years in the Future to the year 4,000 or what ever. You cannot compare them they are incomparable.

ChrisWWII wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

Some of the canon quoted is quite frightening, and consistency is not readily apparent on either side. For example, can a phaser level a mountain, yes it can. How can we deduce that, well a hand phaser can disintegrate matter and ergo since a ships phaser is a massively scaled up copy of the same principle, it can also disintegrate matter. So from that we can deduce that a phaser battery can cause the same amount of damage as a lance. The problem is one variable, how much time does it take? People quote the damage caused from a quote that lances can level mountains and continents. Well so can a phaser the crux is how much time does it take? And is it ever detailed? I honestly dont know and anyone who does, please enlighten me. And SF conveniently forgets the latest technological inovation just in time for the next episode.

Chris I take your point about 1.5kg of antimatter, but to claim that because we know about antimatter today does not equal what we know about antimatter tomorrow, we can only accept what has been presented to us. Which is that the torpedo is capable of 690 GT.

Andrew

Andrew, 40k fluff clearly states that a single lance hit can destroy entire continents, while observation of starship level phasers fired in combat situations have never shown this level of firepower. This implies that a lance is capable of sending MUCH more power down its energy beam than a single phaser beam can. Sure, eventually a phaser can send as much energy as a lance, but it would take much more time than the lance.

Additionally, we know that the warhead fuel is antideutrium and deutrium. We also know how much energy the reaction of one atom of antideutrium with one atom of deutrium releases. Scaling this up gives us a figure of 64 megatons. There is no way that 1.5 kg of antimatter reacting with 1.5 kg of matter can result in 690 gigatons.

Not to mention, your argument is flawed in that you assume the Federation can preform this activity with enough quantity to defeat the Imperium, but please remember, what is the likelihood that the Romulans would share their cloaking technology? More importantly, does the Federation have the industrial capacity to churn OUT enough cloaking devices and ships to defeat the Imperium? THe answer is no.

The In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual states the yield of the warhead would be equivalent of 690gigatons even if standard physics would give a max yield of 64 megatons. The fact that they mention the yield you would get using current physics is most likely just there to show how much more advanced their science is supposed to be compared to current science.

The romulans actually give their cloaking tech to the federation in the DS9 series (when faced with a significant threat).

Edit: To be more precise, They gave one of their cloaking devices to the federation to be installed on the USS defiant under supervision
to spy on the dominion, but it was allowed to stay even after the romulan supervisor left the ship.
This sets a precedent that the romulans could share their cloaking tech in a situation like an invading IoM.

Edit2: The advantage with being diplomatic (pussies), is that people will believe you if you promise them not to use the cool new tech they gave you against them.

ChrisWWII wrote: FocusedFire....I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. Please say you are. But if not...please remember we're not talking ST galaxy against the IoM. We're talking Federation against the IoM which is something totally different. We are also assuming each side has all resources available to it.

Actually I was going off of an extrapolation that is based off of information at hand. My points:

1)There is no known full estimation of the population levels of the Star Trek Universe.

2) We do get the occasional planetary and system population levels in various movies and episodes that show an avg population that easily equals the average Imperial system population totals.

3)The IoM population level of 600 trillion is a very low number when spread across the galaxy.
(Example- Currently the earth is approaching 10 billion people. Using this as a basis then the IoM=60,000 current earths. Now take the earths population and increase it to what is estimated as its maximum sustainable population of 50 Billion and you are down to 12,000 earths. This isn't taking into account larger planets and multiple planets within a system that easily halves the total number of systems under IoM control down to 6,000 systems and that is being kind.)

4)Many of the IoM's worlds and their systems are either primitive or have no regular contact with their Imperial overseers, which means that their populations don't contribute to the totals.

5)If the federation system totals are an indication of the rest of the ST galaxy then the IoM would most likely not have the forces available to acomplish a conquest of the ST galaxy.


I make no claim that all of my arguments are perfect or even necessarily accurate. I do maintain that there is not enough background information to know the population levels in the Star Trek Galaxy.

Accersitus wrote:Klingon warriors would get slaughtered by Space marines. 2 initially unarmed Human augments take control of a klingon bird of prey.
(These are Star trek genetically engineered humans, who were developed in the 20th century (yes, over 10 years ago ) in the star trek
universe, and further research was banned)

There were no Klingons on board Kirks enterprise when dealing with Khan so your example is invalid. From what little has been given about the alien physiology, it seems that klingons are close to SM equivalents when not considering Power Armour. When looking at boarding actions, the SM power armour becomes a problem because federation ships don't have giant gothic hallways.

Omegus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:There is no proof that says that the IoM has a greater population or larger fleets than the ST universe.

Statement based off of no know ST galaxy wide population totals.

Asherian Command wrote:
WHAT? Your talking about The Imperium of man which is over 600 TRILLION PEOPLE. Not only that But the Imperium of man has the Greatest weapons, armor, and personnel ever. OK! The black templars took on a entire advance human species with only 76 men! Ok they were facing things that were very powerful ok? They won and they pwned their asses.
All the 40k books point to that the imperial warmachine is unbeatable. And it has never been defeated. (in that it hasn't fallen).
It's been close but that is from the inside.
THE ENTIRE ST GALAXY WOULD GET OWNED!
No chaos, no problems with warp travel in the ST galaxy= Unbeatable Imperial Navy.
There are billions of ships in the Imperium. BILLIONS.
The United Federation of Planets would not stand a chance. Even if they were on the offensive. The Imperium of man has mobile defence turrets surronding their planets. The UFP does not. OK?
Planet cracker sent. UFP planet destroyed.
OK the Imperium has millions of worlds. Millions. The UFP Does not have millions. Probably a couple hundred. And not only that but the entire galaxy we are not talking about. We are talking about the UFP not the Entire ST gaxaly.
If we wanted to compare who would win the 40k universe or the St universe.
40k would because of Chaos. So you can't say that the imperium would get owned! Because we have no idea how destructive the imperium is. There are so many untold stories about space warfare. The Battle for Terra. Which had the largest fleets ever known fighting each other. Was so titantic that it boiled the seas and destoried metropolis's. And not only that but it spanned the Entire Imperium. OK?? The ST Gaxaly only has one big war that does not have massive weapons of mass destruction shooting each other. No. They have lasers and Photo torpedoes. even if they did have a super weapon. How they going to equip every single ship? The imperium has standard armament to every ship.
END OF HATE!

Easy to provoke, Must be one of them Black Templars that all of the other SM chapters make fun of.

I will make this one point to you. Because the IoM is invading the ST universe and seeing as fantasy does not exist within the ST universe. Then all magic and warp effects do not exist and the IoM is stuck moving at Sub-light. This would probably give the federation time to more than adequately prepare and humiliate the IoM.

ChrisWWII wrote:Andrew, 40k fluff clearly states that a single lance hit can destroy entire continents, while observation of starship level phasers fired in combat situations have never shown this level of firepower. This implies that a lance is capable of sending MUCH more power down its energy beam than a single phaser beam can. Sure, eventually a phaser can send as much energy as a lance, but it would take much more time than the lance.

And the Federation can level planets by using ists deflectors and tractor beams an the tectonic plates to rip the planet apart. Seeing as The IoM has no such tech and no dejense against such, the Federation rips the Imperial Barges apart.

Asherian Command wrote:Yeah chances of them getting the man power and the ships are 0.0000000000000000000000001% it would mean that every person in entire gaxaly has to have 100 Childern EACH. And maintain that for 2,000 years. and that will still not work. You can not become as powerful as the Imperium

Please to note my above ^reply to your prior post.

focusedfire wrote:

Accersitus wrote:Klingon warriors would get slaughtered by Space marines. 2 initially unarmed Human augments take control of a klingon bird of prey.
(These are Star trek genetically engineered humans, who were developed in the 20th century (yes, over 10 years ago ) in the star trek
universe, and further research was banned)

There were no Klingons on board Kirks enterprise when dealing with Khan so your example is invalid. From what little has been given about the alien physiology, it seems that klingons are close to SM equivalents when not considering Power Armour. When looking at boarding actions, the SM power armour becomes a problem because federation ships don't have giant gothic hallways.

I'm talking about Star Trek: Enterprise. Season 4 episode 4 "Borderland" Start of the episode.

No one counts enturdprise as a part of star trek. Scott Bakula and co killed the franchise. The series was made without roddenbarry due to his being dead. How UPN managed to get the rights to use the name I don't know but the series had little to do with the established background.

The only good part of the series was the ship looked nice and the character of the chief engineer.

Bringing up Enterprise opens the debate up to alternate universes. If we are bringing in alternate realities then I propose the the Imperial Earth forces of the bearded Kirk Would totally own the IoM.

focusedfire wrote:No one counts enturdprise as a part of star trek. Scott Bakula and co killed the franchise. The series was made without roddenbarry due to his being dead. How UPN managed to get the rights to use the name I don't know but the series had little to do with the established background.

The only good part of the series was the ship looked nice and the character of the chief engineer.

Bringing up Enterprise opens the debate up to alternate universes. If we are bringing in alternate realities then I propose the the Imperial Earth forces of the bearded Kirk Would totally own the IoM.

I'm not saying it is as good as the other trek series, but a lot of the of the stuff in that series is at least loosely based on concepts from the previous series.
(Augments: ToS, 29th century time agency: Voyager, peaceful explorers interested in diplomacy: TNG)
It's like a sci-fi prequel that doesn't live up to what it is based on, but looks nice (where have I heard that before ).

Alternate realities where the federation is more warlike is not unique to that series.
One example is TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise".

FocusedFire: I'm sorry to say I disagree with you on your claim about the Federation's planet busting ability. The episode where the Romulans and Cardassians attacked the Founder's homeworld? They used standard weapons on the planet, instead of this tractor beam tectonic plate movement thingy you mention. Moreover, the Enterprise showed in an inability to move a single large asteroid in Deja Q showing that their tractor beam technology would be insufficient to move something as massive as a continent!

But onto the point about the size of the Imperium.....I think the number '600 trillion' is much too far low. The total population of the Imperium is more likely in the low quadrillions than the high trillions. More importantly, most of the Imperium is NOT at war. Most planets live in relative peace, and are thriving as far as industrial (or food) and population goes. And actually...most planets in the Imperium are not feral or medieval worlds, but are civilized worlds. These planets are described as being self sufficient with populations in the low billions, and generally stand at the standard Imperial tech level.

Plus remember, we are not talking Imperium of Man versus entire Star Trek galaxy. We are talking Imperiumn of Man versus the Federation. Each side has its own resources and only those resources on hand.

I just read through Execution Hour (mostly the space battle parts), and must admit I was a little disappointed at the firepower involved.

Abbadons Planet killer takes 20 minutes before the planet explodes (compared to the rather more effective death star in star wars).

Note though this concerns the Dictator class cruiser (a modified lunar class cruiser that has fighters and bombers instead of lance batteries).
3km long (only 4 times the length of a galaxy class starship) Lord Solar Macharius.

Armored prow made of strengthened adamantium (the hardest material known to IoM),
but the blast shields for the bridge viewports are only a few feet of titanium steel.
-This sounds like 1 Federation torpedo could take out the bridge of this ship (if they can penetrate/overload the void shields
in some way, since the shields are warp based this is a hard subject to debate best solution I have come up with is "brakes" on the federation torpedoes
slowing them to IoM torpedo speed for the very last part).

IoM Bomber (starhawk) launched plasma missiles: Failure rate of over 30% at 480km, 20% destroyed by
IoM anti ordnance, and only a fraction of the remaining warheads do real damage.
Effectiveness vs other IoM ships: A fraction of 50%.
-given that phasers would most likely be effective against the bombers long before they got this close,
and the federation shields can stop missiles and torpedoes, this kind of attack seems almost pointless against
federation starships (that are most likely faster than the IoM bombers given the speed of their torpedoes).
Give me a defiant class starship any day instead of a squadron of 30 IoM bombers (each about 40%-60% the size of a defiant class starship).

IoM torpedo speed 10k - 90k m/s (they say it's tens of km/second) (1/30k c - 3/10k c) Federation ships can out run them with almost no impulse power.
Size 100 meters long. Crude but effective guidance systems (targets power signatures, and com-traffic).
-The torpedoes don't seem to have very sophisticated targeting systems (unless in a target rich environment they seem prone to
failing to lock on to a target. Seems possible a sort of decoy countermeasure could be designed against this if needed).
Given this speed for their torpedoes, it is unlikely IoM ships have anywhere close to the speed and manoeuvrability of
federation starships, as they would easily have managed to evade incoming torpedoes.

The lance batteries on the Gothic class cruiser Drachenfels seem more impressive, but since the Lord Solar Macharius is the
protagonist ship of the book, most of the focus is directed there.

I know these are not the largest ships in the imperial navy, but in the book, cruisers are portrayed as powerful ships.

Accersitus wrote:

IoM Bomber (starhawk) launched plasma missiles: Failure rate of over 30% at 480km, 20% destroyed by
IoM anti ordnance, and only a fraction of the remaining warheads do real damage.
Effectiveness vs other IoM ships: A fraction of 50%.
-given that phasers would most likely be effective against the bombers long before they got this close,
and the federation shields can stop missiles and torpedoes, this kind of attack seems almost pointless against
federation starships (that are most likely faster than the IoM bombers given the speed of their torpedoes).

IoM torpedo speed 10k - 90k m/s (they say it's tens of km/second) (1/30k c - 3/10k c) Federation ships can out run them with almost no impulse power.
Size 100 meters long. Crude but effective guidance systems (targets power signatures, and com-traffic).
-The torpedoes don't seem to have very sophisticated targeting systems (unless in a target rich environment they seem prone to
failing to lock on to a target. Seems possible a sort of decoy countermeasure could be designed against this if needed).
Given this speed for their torpedoes, it is unlikely IoM ships have anywhere close to the speed and manoeuvrability of
federation starships, as they would easily have managed to evade incoming torpedoes.

You have to note that the Federation as is does not seem to possess CIWS for defense against missiles. We have never seen Federation ships try to shoot down incoming projectile weapons with their phasers, moreover, we also have to note that the effectiveness of a torpedo fired at a thick skinned Imperial ship does not produce the same result as being fired at a thin skinned Federation ship. While the bombers would no doubt suffer heavy casualties on their attack runs, the torpedoes that were launched would meet less anti projectile fire and not have to pierce as much armor. And yes, the armor on the bridge is relatively thin, but also consider the size of the bridge as compared to the size of the rest of the ship. It's not that easy a target to nail.

And yes if that's the speed of an Imperial torpedo (I confess I have never read the book you're quoting here so I'm trusting you. ) then do doubt the Feds will out run them. However, from what I've read in BFG, the primary use of torpedoes isn't to nail fleeing enemies, but instead to provide a first salvo while the fleet is charging to weapons range. I doubt the Federation would be as stupid as to charge the Imperial fleet head on....so I'm guessing torpedoes wouldn't be used very much in Starfleet vs Imperial Fleet battles.....though I can totally see the first Starfleet ship to meet the Imperium closing to their point blank 'negotiation' distance.....only to get a full torpedo salvo in the gut the second the Imperials see a filthy xenos on board.

ChrisWWII wrote:You have to note that the Federation as is does not seem to possess CIWS for defense against missiles. We have never seen Federation ships try to shoot down incoming projectile weapons with their phasers,

You didn't see the new movie. First 3 minutes of the movie shows other-wise.