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Oh no, I saw the new movie focusedfire. But remember, that takes place in an alternate reality from the standard one. I am looking at the Federation at the end of the Dominion War era, and not at the alternate reality in the new movie.

To be fair, They really didn't have the ability at first and the budget later to show such effects.

I believe the tactic was used before, Albiet subtley/briefly.

Kirk used the Phasers to detonate the Romulan (disruptor pulse?) and a Nuclear device that was fired out of a romulan Bird of prey's torpedo tubes.

Omegus wrote:

I notice you have a habit of ignoring arguments you have no defense against, and just going, "LALALALAL FTL LALALALALALA FTL LALALALA!"

Uh, no. You have so far ignored that FTL combat IS possible, HAS been shown practical and you have yet to come up with an argument against it....

You then come back with "trillions of people!!! milloions of ships" and have yet to explain how you coordinate a strike, commiunicate with enough precision to actually get people to turn up, and overcome the massive unrfeliability of the warp (fat fractions of your fleet will turn up late, and some turn up early] in delivering to the target(s)

Omegus wrote: Again, even if we assume that Star Trek ships can strafe Imperial ships with impunity, there are simply not enough ships in the Federation and their weapons are not up to par

A single max yield photorp is on par. Guess that makes your argument null.

And no: you dont get to go "but theres no way 1.5kg of AM and......" - you dont get to say thgat. Canon has stated the yield, maximum , of a photorp. 690 gigatons. More than enough to do damage - espeically when you can target an area with precision and have sensors seemingly designed to find weak spots in ships.

It is irrelevant what *our* physics states would happen - there is a stated figure for output. If you want we could probably find fugures disproving the abiulity of lances to poroduce gigatonnage output, based on the fact IoM use fusion reactions to power their ships...

Omegus wrote:to destroy Imperial ships fast enough to stop them destroying all of their bases and planets. And even if the Federation started likewise targeting Imperial bases/planets, again we have the discrepancy of the Imperium having far more planets, far more ships, and being far more used to annihilating all life from a planet's surface. Quantity has a quality all of its own. The Imperium literally has more planets than the Federation has ships by an order of magnitude. Conversely, the Imperium could throw a thousand ships at every Federation planet and still have some left over.

You are assuming you can bring the IoM forces to bear in a set of coordinated strikes.

PLease actually answer the massive flaws I have shown in your capability to do so. Or you are the oone sticking your fingers in your ears....

Omegus wrote:"Destroy the STC and they can't do anything"? All known STCs are archived by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The STCs are actually machines, you cannot "archive" them as they do not understand how STCs were made - its why they are so valuable, even when recovered they are irreplaceable. [ref: early Ghosts novel where they find the thinking machine STC]

In addition: Enterprise is alternate reality from TOS, TNG, Voy and DS9. They stated as much - they used the changes to the timeline made in first contact

Chris, thanks for the backup. that's what my point was exactly: the imperium has to deal with massively more manuverable enemies all the time, the federation would be no different.

And nosferatu, forgive me for not knowing the amount of time it takes to reach a planet from exiting warp... Was not aware it was that great a distance. However, my point still stands: why not go after stationary targets like stations (ds9 being a good example of a station being on the edge of a system, and I would assume there are others) to force the federation to fight outside of warp simply to engage in support or rescue tactics?

I can't help but see your analogy of hitting targets moving at sublight while at warp being like shooting a pistol at a target the size of a tennis ball, while driving past it at 200+ mph, and expecting to hit every time. That's a lot of variables to consider, and potentially a lot of wasted firepower that would be too sporadic to inflict any major damage.

No problem Marrak.

Don't forget....even if one Imperial transport bull rushes a planet and gets on the ground, or one Astartes ship does the same, the Federation can kiss that planet good bye. And since almost all of the Federation's industrial resources are concentrated in a few systems, losing even one planet like Vulcan or another key planet similar to it would be a catastrophic blow to the Federation. Without its industrial base, Starfleet will slowly starve for want of food, spare parts and the million other things any military needs to keep going. Hell, the surviving commanders may even surrender to save their crews....seems like something the Fed would do.

Nosferatu, they can archive the STC printouts and STCs they have by burrying the machines in massive underground bunkers that you'd have to blow up the planet to get to. Somehow I see the AdMech being willing to do exactly that when it comes to their precious STC. Additonally, we've seen the Imperium able to organize and make massive, coordinated military campaigns before. The Macharian and Sabbat World's Crusades for one....not to mention the Great Crusade when the Emperor was still in power. That was a galaxy spanning military campaign that remained centrally controlled using the same type of technology the Imperium has in its present day.

FocusedFire, yeah that's probably the case....but remember, it doesn't matter what the constraints the show had in our real world. They have what they have on screen.....and to be honest, the Balance of Terror while a good episode has been superseded by later canon. The Balance of Terror had phasers acting as depth charges and other things, and all of that has been replaced by newer canon. (Btw...I just have to say this. I love the Socrates joke in your status, dude )

ChrissWWII - except they need the machines operational in order to produce more of "X" [lands raiders, speeders, etc]

The point was that the *current* Imperium seems incapable of mounting a response to the Tau in anything less than decades. Decades to Federation means a whole magnitude more impressive technology - hell, they now hvae an expert in conduit tech to help their slight disadvantage at long range speeds.

It was centrally controlled - but locally coordinated, as the HH books show. Which si the point: someone posited the rediculous idea that somehow the entire impoerium could launch an attack, all on the same day. Which frankly, is not the simplest solution....

nosferatu1001 wrote:ChrissWWII - except they need the machines operational in order to produce more of "X" [lands raiders, speeders, etc]

The point was that the *current* Imperium seems incapable of mounting a response to the Tau in anything less than decades. Decades to Federation means a whole magnitude more impressive technology - hell, they now hvae an expert in conduit tech to help their slight disadvantage at long range speeds.

It was centrally controlled - but locally coordinated, as the HH books show. Which si the point: someone posited the rediculous idea that somehow the entire impoerium could launch an attack, all on the same day. Which frankly, is not the simplest solution....

The Imperium could crush the Tau. However, they are distracted.
In this hypothetical, there are no distractions, as it is pure IoM vs. ST, no other enemies.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Accersitus wrote:

IoM Bomber (starhawk) launched plasma missiles: Failure rate of over 30% at 480km, 20% destroyed by
IoM anti ordnance, and only a fraction of the remaining warheads do real damage.
Effectiveness vs other IoM ships: A fraction of 50%.
-given that phasers would most likely be effective against the bombers long before they got this close,
and the federation shields can stop missiles and torpedoes, this kind of attack seems almost pointless against
federation starships (that are most likely faster than the IoM bombers given the speed of their torpedoes).

IoM torpedo speed 10k - 90k m/s (they say it's tens of km/second) (1/30k c - 3/10k c) Federation ships can out run them with almost no impulse power.
Size 100 meters long. Crude but effective guidance systems (targets power signatures, and com-traffic).
-The torpedoes don't seem to have very sophisticated targeting systems (unless in a target rich environment they seem prone to
failing to lock on to a target. Seems possible a sort of decoy countermeasure could be designed against this if needed).
Given this speed for their torpedoes, it is unlikely IoM ships have anywhere close to the speed and manoeuvrability of
federation starships, as they would easily have managed to evade incoming torpedoes.

You have to note that the Federation as is does not seem to possess CIWS for defense against missiles. We have never seen Federation ships try to shoot down incoming projectile weapons with their phasers, moreover, we also have to note that the effectiveness of a torpedo fired at a thick skinned Imperial ship does not produce the same result as being fired at a thin skinned Federation ship. While the bombers would no doubt suffer heavy casualties on their attack runs, the torpedoes that were launched would meet less anti projectile fire and not have to pierce as much armor. And yes, the armor on the bridge is relatively thin, but also consider the size of the bridge as compared to the size of the rest of the ship. It's not that easy a target to nail.

And yes if that's the speed of an Imperial torpedo (I confess I have never read the book you're quoting here so I'm trusting you. ) then do doubt the Feds will out run them. However, from what I've read in BFG, the primary use of torpedoes isn't to nail fleeing enemies, but instead to provide a first salvo while the fleet is charging to weapons range. I doubt the Federation would be as stupid as to charge the Imperial fleet head on....so I'm guessing torpedoes wouldn't be used very much in Starfleet vs Imperial Fleet battles.....though I can totally see the first Starfleet ship to meet the Imperium closing to their point blank 'negotiation' distance.....only to get a full torpedo salvo in the gut the second the Imperials see a filthy xenos on board.

No they don't, but they deal mostly with energy weapons and projectiles that move a lot faster, Imperial torpedoes as described in this book are over 1k times slower than a federation starship at full impulse. Even if the fighters and bombers are several magnitudes quicker, they are still slow and lumbering compared to federation ships and weapons.

An IoM torpedo ignores an IoM void shield, but not a Federation shield, giving the federation ship a chance to avoid the damage.

It's on the 2nd page in the 5th chapter in part 3 of the book (page 97 in the edition I have) if you want to check it though.
It's not a bad book.

Execution Hour wrote:
Thirty torpedoes, closing on the enemy pack at a speed of tens of kilometres a second.

Although it is noted that when they approach their target, the torpedoes burn the last of their fuel for a speed boost, and fire small manoeuvring thrusters to align their trajectory.

The unimpressive part with the bombers was how close they had to get to get even 70% accuracy.
460km is really point blank in space combat.

Other than the heavily armored prow and lightly armored bridge, the book doesn't mention specific hull materials for the majority of the ship.
And it provides a weak spot the Federation can target.

At the end of the battle where the speed of the torpedoes is mentioned, it is also mentioned that the last kill of the battle
was made by destroying a retreating ship with torpedoes. The ship that was destroyed was noted for being lucky throughout the battle (until it was destroyed ),
and had most likely only suffered minor damage, but it was still not able to outrun torpedoes fired at it as it retreated.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Don't forget....even if one Imperial transport bull rushes a planet and gets on the ground, or one Astartes ship does the same, the Federation can kiss that planet good bye. And since almost all of the Federation's industrial resources are concentrated in a few systems, losing even one planet like Vulcan or another key planet similar to it would be a catastrophic blow to the Federation. Without its industrial base, Starfleet will slowly starve for want of food, spare parts and the million other things any military needs to keep going. Hell, the surviving commanders may even surrender to save their crews....seems like something the Fed would do.

1)Problem is that by your posted scenario the IoM ships would never make it to any of the systems.

2) Except that the Feds industrial base is spread all over their sector of space. It is not limited to just a few planets as you contend.

3)The IoM would have no supplies as per your original post. As a matter of fact, their would be no astronomicon to navigate by.

ChrisWWII wrote:
Nosferatu, they can archive the STC printouts and STCs they have by burrying the machines in massive underground bunkers that you'd have to blow up the planet to get to. Somehow I see the AdMech being willing to do exactly that when it comes to their precious STC. Additonally, we've seen the Imperium able to organize and make massive, coordinated military campaigns before. The Macharian and Sabbat World's Crusades for one....not to mention the Great Crusade when the Emperor was still in power. That was a galaxy spanning military campaign that remained centrally controlled using the same type of technology the Imperium has in its present day.

STC's do not apply in this scenario as per your given scenario the IoM's fleet would be isolated and unsupported. STC's do not exist 37K years back in the Imperiums history.

ChrisWWII wrote:
FocusedFire, yeah that's probably the case....but remember, it doesn't matter what the constraints the show had in our real world. They have what they have on screen.....and to be honest, the Balance of Terror while a good episode has been superseded by later canon. The Balance of Terror had phasers acting as depth charges and other things, and all of that has been replaced by newer canon. (Btw...I just have to say this. I love the Socrates joke in your status, dude )

1)Now you are just unfairly stacking the deck. Your using alternate universes in support of one argument while claiming they can't be used in another.

2)I believe Picard also used Phasers to detonate a warhead that was getting to close to the ship, this woud indicate the use of Phasers as an intercept defense

3)Glad you like the joke. I like the added implied irony when you think of Socrates's philosophical out-look and his famos quote about the more he learned the less he knew.

4)In reply to your Original Post, Kirk or Khan as the early emperor with the edge going to Kirk. Use the weird space string a the key to his survival. That he left a part of himself in what was an early form of the warp. That part, being a natural conqueror, grows in power to the point that the warp ejects the altered/more powerful Kirk back into the material universe.

Think about it, Kirk is a natural conqueror and has Xeno phobic tendencies. Now hust imagine him with the power of the Q.

Klawz wrote:The Imperium could crush the Tau. However, they are distracted.
In this hypothetical, there are no distractions, as it is pure IoM vs. ST, no other enemies.

In the given scenario, the Imperial fleet would have no logistcal support or astronomicom to guide them.

But then it isn't a fight. Just a massacre. You have to assume both sides have access to resources, as the crew of the Enterprise would be just as screwed in the Grimdark far future than a battlefleet would be in te UFP.

Are you guys missing the point? THE UFP CAN'T BREACH THE ARMOR OF THE BFG. YOU KEEP FORGETING LANCE WEAPONS CAN TEAR SHIPS APART! THE IMPERIUM DOES NOT HAVE ALL FANTATICS THERE ARE SOME THAT JUST LOOK INTO THE EMPEROR AS A LEADER!
Also stop giving me this bs about the UFP Has better weapons. Because we don't know how destructive a Lance weapon can be. Ok? We cannot say who would be better. And not only that but they are far more advanced than any other of the Races in the UFP. Oh look we have cloaking. So? They have void shields that can resist several lance shots. And Lasers won't do much ever since its like pointing a flashlight at a Tank. That way you can't blind the Pilot. Anyway its impossible to determine who would win in this fight. Can we just say that it ends with the imperial win? Because they have far more ships and far more powerful weapons that are never used unless needed. The Imperium has weapons that can destory entire planets but they never use them. And don't even mention CHAOS IN THIS THREAD! JUST IMPERIAL!

@Klawz-In order for the scenario to be fair, the battle would have to occur in a between realm created equally by writers from bpth sides. To use either sides universe would be unfair as you are taking something desifbed for one enviroment and are putting it in another. This creates imbalances and weights the battle to one side or the other depending on hoe it is applied.

If you bring the IoM into the ST universe and let it have all of the bonuses without the negatives while still restraining the federation to the confines of its established laws then it is just as unfair as bringing the IoM in without Support ot guidance from the astronomicon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:Are you guys missing the point? THE UFP CAN'T BREACH THE ARMOR OF THE BFG. YOU KEEP FORGETING LANCE WEAPONS CAN TEAR SHIPS APART! THE IMPERIUM DOES NOT HAVE ALL FANTATICS THERE ARE SOME THAT JUST LOOK INTO THE EMPEROR AS A LEADER!
Also stop giving me this bs about the UFP Has better weapons. Because we don't know how destructive a Lance weapon can be. Ok? We cannot say who would be better. And not only that but they are far more advanced than any other of the Races in the UFP. Oh look we have cloaking. So? They have void shields that can resist several lance shots. And Lasers won't do much ever since its like pointing a flashlight at a Tank. That way you can't blind the Pilot. Anyway its impossible to determine who would win in this fight. Can we just say that it ends with the imperial win? Because they have far more ships and far more powerful weapons that are never used unless needed. The Imperium has weapons that can destory entire planets but they never use them. And don't even mention CHAOS IN THIS THREAD! JUST IMPERIAL!

Timmy, I know this is an exciting place and that your are feeling a little over stimulated,...breath...just breath and relax. Maybe ou need some quiet time.

Based off of range, power level, and technology, Starfleet would peel BFG open like the oversized tuna cans they are.

BTW, As to your much vaunted lance shots, Phasers as particle energy weapons would have the lance rule. Thet would just have longer range and more power then the IoMs weapons. In order to understand this you have to look at the base power supplies. This is where the IoM and BFG fall flat on their face.

And no Timmy, we will not reward your tantrums with a your right. That would be re-enforcing negative behaviors.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Omegus wrote:

I notice you have a habit of ignoring arguments you have no defense against, and just going, "LALALALAL FTL LALALALALALA FTL LALALALA!"

Uh, no. You have so far ignored that FTL combat IS possible, HAS been shown practical and you have yet to come up with an argument against it....

Aaaaand you just automatically lose the argument by putting words in my mouth. I agreed with you and provided about a dozen specific examples from across the series that show that warp speed combat IS indeed possible, and there may be a chance they could attack the Imperial ships with impunity. But then I also stated that this doesn't matter, because the Federation simply doesn't have the ships or firepower to make a dent in the far more vast Imperial fleet before all their little planets are annihilated.

A single max yield torpedo is on par? Even if we make that enormous leap of conjecture, we have examples of Imperial ships receiving similar hits and keeping on ticking. But fine, let's allow you another one of your wild suppositions, and every single torpedo completely annihilates a ship it hits and they have a 100% hitrate. A galaxy-class starship contains 250 torpedoes. Each Federation ship can destroy 250 ships and it still won't make a difference, the Imperium ALWAYS HAS MORE SHIPS. The matter of scale makes this conflict ridiculous.

The Imperium is unable to coordinate their forces? There are massive coordinated crusades going on all the time, the Imperium is simply beset by threats from every angle, and we're assuming a pure IoM vs. Federation conflict. If you want to play that game, then we have to assume the Federation can't focus their meager fleet either, because they are all across the galaxy exploring and it takes them years and years to get back to the site of conflict, while dealing with Borg predations and Romulan/Ferengi/Klingon treachery at every turn.

So I'm just going to ignore your blather from now on, you're obviously somehow very personally invested in this argument, so there's no debating with you.

I don't know if that has been said yet... but what's the actual 'range' of the Star Trek weaponry? A quick google search didn't yield anything conclusive... and someone in this thread said something like 10-20 kilometers? What about the actual range of their teleportation device?

Thanks to Rogue Trader (the rpg), we know the range of most common Lance, Macrobatteries and Teleportarium.

So a couple fun facts:

- Combat in Rogue Trader is measured in Void Unit (VU), 1 VU = 10,000 Kilometers

- Imperium ship DO have the ability to lock on a target and can shoot at target they do not physically see.

- The average range of a Lance is 6 Void Units, long range 12. Average range of a Macrobatterie is 9 void units, long range 18.

- Teleportarium have a range of 5 VU, they ignore shield and can allow you to teleport directly into an enemy ship (even if it has Geller or Void Shield). They are old Archeo-Tech, however, Teleportarium are the cheapest (in power, space and ship point) of all Archeo-Tech, so while not every ship will have one, you can expect a lot to have in a massive fleet. This is an important factor... while Shield stop Star Trek Teleportation, it doesn't stop Imperium Teleportation.

I'm not sure which side this information will help, but there it is.

It has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, and the engagement ranges of fleet combat in the Imperium is several times that of the Federation.

Tarkand wrote:I don't know if that has been said yet... but what's the actual 'range' of the Star Trek weaponry? A quick google search didn't yield anything conclusive... and someone in this thread said something like 10-20 kilometers? What about the actual range of their teleportation device?

Thanks to Rogue Trader (the rpg), we know the range of most common Lance, Macrobatteries and Teleportarium.

the range of a Federation photon torpedo was slightly below 300,000 kilometers. (TNG: "The Wounded")
USS Voyager was equipped with type-6 photon torpedoes. These torpedoes had an effective range of approximately 8 million kilometres.

During the 22nd century, standard Earth transporter systems had a range of 10,000 kilometers; however,
by the 24th century, standard transporter systems maximum range was about 40,000 kilometers.

Can't find range for phasers atm.

Quoting from stardestroyer.net's analysis on Fed combat range....

Combat range: fleet actions in DS9 uniformly feature engagements at ranges of 5 km or less, just as they do in TNG's Klingon wars or Borg engagements. In "The Die is Cast", Sisko actually orders the Defiant to approach to 500 metres (while taking fire) before shooting at a Jem'Hadar attack ship, presumably due to some disadvantage incurred at longer range. The only long-ranged incidents involve stationary or near-stationary targets.

I believe that will answer questions about Federation combat range. Remember, while the weapons themselves can travel farther than that, there is some reason limiting them to close range combat, and most importantly.....when you look at Federation battle tactics you tend to see a 3 dimensional version of battlelines...battlewalls I guess.


Very well, I concede that I was wrong, and the Federation does possess some form of CIWS capability, although it is not used very often on screen, we can assume we know its existence, and that the Federation would have some chance of shooting down inbound ordnance.

But focusedfire, thank you for reading my OP, and I guess over time...the rules of the engagement here have changed slightly. Yes, I originally wanted to know what would happen to a small fleet of Imperial vessels entering the ST universe, but overtime it has changed into one where we have somehow allowed both factions to take each other on on as close to equal terms. For me, this means that each side is at its peak of military strength while lacking any of their standard enemies to distract them. This means, that the Federation has all the ships it built for the Dominion War and other threats but doesn't have to worry about them. And the Imperium has all the ships it built for all the threats it has, but doesn't have to deal with them. For all intents and purposes, each side has access to full resources. For me, that means the Imperium has the Astronomican and access to their industrial base, and the Federation would be able to try and negotiate alliances with their neighbors.

Although, I fail to understand how I'm stacking the deck.....I always assumed TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY were all one chronology. The primary Star Trek chronology that I was using for this debate. I'm not looking at the alternate universes that occured with the new movie, or the mirror universe. However, within the primary chronology we see that later canon superseeds earlier canon. i.e. Phasers are beam weapons, instead of depth charge like weapons.

Thank you for your input on the Emperor. That could be an interesting scene when he reveals himself as the Emperor

Less shouting please.

Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?

Chris - As has been mentioned a couple of times, the main reason for close range firefights?

In character: because highly agile ships makes firing a limited manouverability (compared to the ships fighting) torpedo at longer range a more than useless exercise.

Out of character: because they look cooler. You keep assuming there "must" be a reason why other than narrative convenience...yet this IS a valid cause!

[same way Gaunt never manages to die...]

It is only enterprise that is alternate universe, and the new film of course.

Omegus - so when you put words in my mouth you didnt lose the argument first? :rolleyes:

I never said each one would vaproise a ship; however we know they can hit extremely small targets with precision, meaning they CAN hit the most vulnerable part of a IoM ship - the engines and the plasma reactor.

Kilkrazy wrote:Less shouting please.

Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?

We have assumed they aren't a problem.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

I never said each one would vaproise a ship; however we know they can hit extremely small targets with precision, meaning they CAN hit the most vulnerable part of a IoM ship - the engines and the plasma reactor.

Except they have to get through the shields first. Void shields DO, in fact, block physical projectiles. We know this because physical projectiles are a common component in Imperial weapons batteries, which void shields deal with just fine.

They don't block IMPERIAL torpedoes, but there is nothing at all to say that they don't block Federation torpedoes, because as you've pointed out, the two weapons have very few similarities.

Well it wasn't that I was mad I got shot up during a paintball game -.-. Anyway its just stupid we can't all say that we need to have actual evidence to prove this. Like a breakdown of the weapons and armor. And How can they breach the armor. Because Lasers are just flashlights.

Klawz wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Less shouting please.

Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?

We have assumed they aren't a problem.

Then of course the IoM has the advantage of numbers. However it is a very unrealistic assumption.

If the matter is to be examined with any pretence at seriousness, the parameters should be realistic within the universes concerned.

There are no Warp Gods in the ST galaxy. Explained done checked. PWNED.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Less shouting please.

Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?

We have assumed they aren't a problem.

Then of course the IoM has the advantage of numbers. However it is a very unrealistic assumption.

If the matter is to be examined with any pretence at seriousness, the parameters should be realistic within the universes concerned.

These are the parameters set by the OP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Omegus - so when you put words in my mouth you didnt lose the argument first? :rolleyes:

I never said each one would vaproise a ship; however we know they can hit extremely small targets with precision, meaning they CAN hit the most vulnerable part of a IoM ship - the engines and the plasma reactor.

What words did I put in your mouth exactly? Are you saying you don't fall back on the "they have FTL sensors and can zip around messing the IoM up!" argument every two or three posts or so? I never said you said one torpedo would take out an Imperial ship, I was giving your argument the full benefit of the doubt and saying that even if every shot was a kill shot, it still wouldn't make a difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Less shouting please.

Where does the IoM get all its ships? If they are coming from the Imperium, then (a) how long does it take to move them to the point of attack, and (b) what do Chaos, the Eldar, Tau, Necrons and so on do while the Imperial Navy is away?

We have assumed they aren't a problem.

Then of course the IoM has the advantage of numbers. However it is a very unrealistic assumption.

If the matter is to be examined with any pretence at seriousness, the parameters should be realistic within the universes concerned.

If we're introducing logistics, then they have to apply to both factions. The Federation's best ships are spread all over the galaxy and have plenty of problems of their own, and the Imperium is able to traverse large distances far more effectively than the Federation. So again, the comparison is one of scale, and the Federation falls woefully short.

The fake "quote", for a start....

I am not "falling back on" - I am setting a solid foundation for a tactic. Yes, zipping around at FTL would work - hence why, IF you notice, I was responding to people who said it wouldnt becauser the ships could be hit/ detected / the IoM ships suddenly forgot they were teratonnage and could magically turn on a dime.

I also never said they coul;dnt mount a major offensive - I was responding to the suggestion that the IoM could somehow arrange to hit in a single DAY

Yeah, okay, whatever. You ignored half a dozen arguments presented by a number of people and just zeroed in on the FTL thing, which at this point is a dead horse.

The IoM could hit every planet in the Federation with a few thousand ships. Even if for some reason they couldn't coordinate their attacks (and nothing in the fluff indicates they can't coordinate fleet actions, quite the contrary), it's not like it's a matter of a few hours for the relatively insignificant Federation fleet to zip from one site of conflict to the next. Warp travel (with a big W) is far faster than warp travel (with a small w). If, like Killionaire, you're going to introduce logistics, all this falls apart. Picard is in perfect position to pull off his little maneuver, when suddenly Q teleports the entire crew onto some random planet to feth with their minds, leaving the ship stranded as the Imperium closes in. Or the Klingons decide they like the warlike Imperium far more than the Federation pussies, and try to curry favor by throwing their lot in with the invaders. Meanwhile, Romulans determine this is the best time to re-try invading Vulkan and finally killing all those pointy-eared bastards. The end.

I view the rules as fair......Each side has access to their full resources without any of their 'traditional' enemies to worry about.

And no, Nosferatu. Out of character reasons for why the Federation fleet engages at such close ranges is NOT a valid reason. Federation commanders do not say 'Hey, let's engage at point blank battles cause it looks good for TV viewers we don't know exist!' No. They use every weapon they have available to them and every tactic they can. You forget, the attacks on the Borg vessel in First Contact and the battles against the Dominion in DS9 are battles for the very future of the Federation. In character, they would NOT do something then just because 'it looks cool'. Narrative convenience is NOT a valid cause in universe. I am looking at Star Trek with complete suspension of disbelief, and if something happens on screen it must have an explanation. If the Federation has the ability to engage their enemies and hundreds of thousands of kilometers, why do they not do so when they're very survival as a state is at risk? Why do they continue to close to 5 km to engage in combat? The only explanation is that they can not engage targets at the maximum range of their weapons.

@ChrisWWII- Pardon me for saying this, but now you are coming across as being intentionally obtuse. (no offense intended)

We are dealing with stories, each written for a different purpose. It is wrong to say that the writing for something intended to be aired on tv(which calls for close proximity staging for dramatic visuals) doesn't noticeably affect how the story is written.

Evey writer that follows will be affected by this story having been represented visually. So, the visual effects most defintely affect the story.

40K has an edge in this regard because the story has never had to be compromised fora cinematic visual representaion. Yes the models probably affect the story but the majority of the game occurs in the mind. I think this may be why established 40K players have a tendency to initially not like newer versions of DoW. Ots because the game doesn't fitt with the mental image that they have of the game and its story.