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Lysenis wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Or they could just be astoundingly good/lucky..

Not all codexes are equal.

We won't be able to tell how Tau have been affected for a bit yet, as we try out the new rules, but in 5th they were at a disticnt disadvantage. It didn't cause autolose, but you had to be either luckier or smarter than your oppoenent to win.

We play every Wednesday and he has beaten everyone in the store either by a super wide margin (no army left on the board and MAYBE a single unit dead) or in the one instance he tied he was playing against the Main Guy of the store that everyone respects as the best in the store. This was in the last month. It is crazy. I love Tau but I know they are not that strong but having been in the Navy and around the world I have seen MANY great Tau players that wipe the board with the corpses of their opposition.

Really good players then.

It helps if you stick with one codex forever instead of codex-hopping to the current power codex.

You can really know what your codex can and can't do, if you play them long enough. It helps turn a mediocre codex into a playable one, but by the same token it turns an UBER codex even more uber.

Personally i rather like playing VS Tau. Always liked the race, and actually played them for a while. I can't help but feel bad for the power difference though. Maybe the next Tau codex will balance that up a bit.

Blackmoor wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Tau are fine.

All the have to do is put 60 orks between them, and whatever is trying to get to them.

Thank you for this post

However, nothing getting flakk missiles... hrmmmmmmmmmm. I guess I'll just have to hit flyers on a 6, eh?

Your new ork flyer has skyfire!!!

Everyone has a lot of new tools and you have to think outside the box to solve your problems.

Good point! So far, I haven't come up with anything (all drop pod BA army) but I wasn't trying to say the sky was falling, just that I may give up trying to find a way to fit skyfire into my theme. I had been hoping my dreadnought missile launchers would get it... but then again, dreading the devastator spam that would inevitably ensue if all MLs came with it (or could upgrade to it) so it might be a net win there

Blackmoor wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Tau are fine.

All the have to do is put 60 orks between them, and whatever is trying to get to them.

Thank you for this post

However, nothing getting flakk missiles... hrmmmmmmmmmm. I guess I'll just have to hit flyers on a 6, eh?

Your new ork flyer has skyfire!!!

Everyone has a lot of new tools and you have to think outside the box to solve your problems.

It's more the idea that most codices must turn to the allies and forts to do anything useful about aircraft that bothers me (and a lot of others). I have Tau, only tau, and I will buy only Tau with the exception of a farseer and rangers. When you choose to play a codex, "outside the box" shouldn't necessarily mean going to another codex that isn't yours in my opinion. I mean, with the current set up you either have to take a fort (which is limited skyfire) or take IG allies. And what do people who are desperate allies with IG do? What do Nids do?

' And what do people who are desperate allies with IG do? What do Nids do? '

Bend over and hope it's quick?

Or find something that can catch and eat those fliers instead of shooting them as shooting isn't really the Nids speciality.

Dantalian wrote:And what do people who are desperate allies with IG do? What do Nids do?

Ignore the flyers and focus on the targets that they can kill?

Not everyone even has flyers at this point. So not everyone having Skyfire doesn't seem like that big a deal.

People say that chaplain gives reroll to hit on shooting. I can't find that anywhere. Am I missing something? The FAQ only change chaplain to work only on SM units.

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote:And what do people who are desperate allies with IG do? What do Nids do?

Ignore the flyers and focus on the targets that they can kill?

Not everyone even has flyers at this point. So not everyone having Skyfire doesn't seem like that big a deal.

A lot more armies have fliers than armies that have skyfire. In fact the only ground unit with skyfire is the IG that I know of.

This edition is perfectly structured to get people to BUY MORE MODELS. GW may hate the 'veteran' gamers but they know how to sell models to people who want to 'keep up with the Joneses'.

SickSix wrote:A lot more armies have fliers than armies that have skyfire. In fact the only ground unit with skyfire is the IG that I know of.

But everyone has access to fortifications, no?

Wouldn't be shocked if the Eldar eventually get the Firestorm (i think that's the name) from Epic. That was a dedicated AA platform IIRC.

god.ra wrote:... I’m not happy with 6th and given FAQ, because my army is not the best anymore and I would have to use my brain some point to win any game... not happy at all.

Both BT and Tau would've been better off with no FAQ at all, how is this not a valid complaint?

insaniak wrote:

SickSix wrote:A lot more armies have fliers than armies that have skyfire. In fact the only ground unit with skyfire is the IG that I know of.

But everyone has access to fortifications, no?

Which means people will have to buy the model

Or build their own, which would be the preferable option particularly for non-Imperial armies...

Raptorkid wrote:

god.ra wrote:... I’m not happy with 6th and given FAQ, because my army is not the best anymore and I would have to use my brain some point to win any game... not happy at all.

Both BT and Tau would've been better off with no FAQ at all, how is this not a valid complaint?

I agree, I was not very happy with the Black Templars FAQ.

Ascalam wrote:Wouldn't be shocked if the Eldar eventually get the Firestorm (i think that's the name) from Epic. That was a dedicated AA platform IIRC.

insaniak wrote:

SickSix wrote:A lot more armies have fliers than armies that have skyfire. In fact the only ground unit with skyfire is the IG that I know of.

But everyone has access to fortifications, no?

This still falls under the idea that I have no real choice in the matter, I am being forced into it.
And yes, that is figuratively forced into it, not literately because I know you will make a witty remark about that line.

Anyone else ready for the hilarity that is 3 squads of long fangs allied with ig and having them issue on my command and bring it down?

Dantalian wrote:This still falls under the idea that I have no real choice in the matter, I am being forced into it.

Of course you have a choice... just as you have a choice to include weapons that can hurt a Land Raider, or not.

You can either adapt to the changing game, or you can keep playing your army as is and hope for the best. Or, of course, you can throw your toys out and stamp your feet.


Every time a codex is updated, the playing field changes, and players are forced to adapt to new rules, tactics and abilities. The only difference a new rulebook makes there is that everyone updates at once.


Just curious, but if, instead of giving you fortifications, they had released rules for a new, say, Broadside variant that has skyfire, would that have been more acceptable?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

insaniak wrote:They tried that with Choppas in 3rd edition... and it was fairly widely reviled.

Because it didn't make sense.

My Choppa reduces your Termy armour to 4+ yet does nothing extra to that Storm Trooper. Wha...?

If it'd been -1 or -2 rather than a flat "Saves above 4+ are now 4+" the rule would have worked.

I'd also wager it was overturned because GW is very uncomfortable with advantages which target SMs.

Over the years SMs are being stripped of all weaknesses and disadvantages.
They've been getting more and better tanks, greater access to speed, ATSKNF, Less vulnerability to xeno strengths, better stealth, better SCs, and now better armor...

Have they lost anything? I'm no SM player so I honestly don't know...

Ozeo wrote:Anyone else ready for the hilarity that is 3 squads of long fangs allied with ig and having them issue on my command and bring it down?

No that is a new flavor of painful cheese that Broadsides just got taken away from them. This FAQ honestly buffed all Imperial lists and necrons, everyone else pretty much go get fethed.

Just a general question, since I saw Look out Sir mentioned earlier, with the Look out Sir being allocated to any model within 6", if an IC 'kills' enough models in his unit to lose coherency, does he automatically leave the unit? If not, will his "may leave the unit" be overridden by the "must move into coherency" in the next move?

I've seen a few suggestions that putting a tough IC at the front of a large unit be the best way getting to the other side of the board.

Cheers

Andrew

Dantalian wrote:

insaniak wrote:

SickSix wrote:A lot more armies have fliers than armies that have skyfire. In fact the only ground unit with skyfire is the IG that I know of.

But everyone has access to fortifications, no?

This still falls under the idea that I have no real choice in the matter, I am being forced into it.
And yes, that is figuratively forced into it, not literately because I know you will make a witty remark about that line.

Make your own fortress, make your own fortifications, since you want Tau make it Tau'ish it is a little complicated but you will enjoy it more.

I missed it, can you snap shot Sniper Rifles?

Soo, harlies in the eldar codex faq get shrouded and stealth but theres no mention about harlies in the DE codex?

Do we assume they meant it for both codexs I wonder?

Crazyterran wrote:I missed it, can you snap shot Sniper Rifles?

Any heavy non blast weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xeriapt wrote:Soo, harlies in the eldar codex faq get shrouded and stealth but theres no mention about harlies in the DE codex?

Do we assume they meant it for both codexs I wonder?

Sadly no. Not sure why it is not in but this is not the first time GW has dropped the ball.

Ozeo wrote:Anyone else ready for the hilarity that is 3 squads of long fangs allied with ig and having them issue on my command and bring it down?

I'm ready to point out that they can't actually do that, yes.

Check the Guard FAQ. Orders can only be issued to Guard units.

insaniak wrote:

Ozeo wrote:Anyone else ready for the hilarity that is 3 squads of long fangs allied with ig and having them issue on my command and bring it down?

I'm ready to point out that they can't actually do that, yes.

Check the Guard FAQ. Orders can only be issued to Guard units.

Yup just like with the BA faq only BA units benefit from a Sang Priest.

Archonate wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

insaniak wrote:They tried that with Choppas in 3rd edition... and it was fairly widely reviled.

Because it didn't make sense.

My Choppa reduces your Termy armour to 4+ yet does nothing extra to that Storm Trooper. Wha...?

If it'd been -1 or -2 rather than a flat "Saves above 4+ are now 4+" the rule would have worked.

I'd also wager it was overturned because GW is very uncomfortable with advantages which target SMs.

Over the years SMs are being stripped of all weaknesses and disadvantages.
They've been getting more and better tanks, greater access to speed, ATSKNF, Less vulnerability to xeno strengths, better stealth, better SCs, and now better armor...

Have they lost anything? I'm no SM player so I honestly don't know...

Clearly you're not - unless by "Space Marine" you mean Blood Angel, Space Wolf or maybe even Grey Knight?

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote:This still falls under the idea that I have no real choice in the matter, I am being forced into it.

Of course you have a choice... just as you have a choice to include weapons that can hurt a Land Raider, or not.

You can either adapt to the changing game, or you can keep playing your army as is and hope for the best. Or, of course, you can throw your toys out and stamp your feet.


Every time a codex is updated, the playing field changes, and players are forced to adapt to new rules, tactics and abilities. The only difference a new rulebook makes there is that everyone updates at once.


Just curious, but if, instead of giving you fortifications, they had released rules for a new, say, Broadside variant that has skyfire, would that have been more acceptable?

If a "changing game" means "congrats, now buy part of a second army" then yes you are correct. All GW has done here is said that the codex you have been playing for years is no longer good enough, go get a second one now. That is complete crap to me.

I see no reason that every codex should not og gotten some form of AA. I mean that just seethes awful execution on GWs part. Or, as we all know, is just GW pretty much going into full money grab mode while they slowly slide on their total player base and sales.

I would not of been happy with broadsides being Skyfire at all. They are S10 AP1 and most flyers are paper. I would rather of had the Skyray go at it with S8 missiles that home in on markerlights. At least at that point I would have limited ammo and not just instantly blow up every flyer that arrives from reserves.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of buying cover and fortifications. My complaint is that half the codices out there have to do this with any chance of countering flyers.

Daston wrote:Some Ork units have lost the Waaagh! and Mob Special Rule :(

Other than that dosnt seem too bad, like how you only use the toughness figure in brackets now.

Which were the units please, i have read the document but didn't see the difference.

insaniak wrote:

Dantalian wrote:And what do people who are desperate allies with IG do? What do Nids do?

Ignore the flyers and focus on the targets that they can kill?

Not everyone even has flyers at this point. So not everyone having Skyfire doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Why are you guys so obsessed about skyfire? Are you saying flyers can't be hit with 6's either? Hitting with only 6's opens some interesting possibilities, like having no disadvantage for moving at full speed with all your units and just snap firing the weapons at them. A ground army can therefore react to the mobility of flyers rather quickly. A Chimera can move 12" and fire both its guns, while the passengers can shoot a heavy weapon and some special weapons out of the firepoints and also hit with 6's. For example, a Vet Squad with 3 Plasma Guns and an Autocannon in a Chimera can move 12" and shoot 3 times with multi-laser, 3 times with heavy bolter and either 3 or 6 times (24" reach total for the rapid fire) with plasma guns, and twice with the autocannon. That's 14 shots that hit with 6's and they'll average a single penetrating hit against a Doom Scythe. They cost 180 points total, pretty much the same as the Doom Scythe, while also providing a scoring infantry unit (I remind you that vehicles and flyers can't even contest objectives now) to the army. You take four or five similar squads and back them up with your own flyers and a couple Hydras and what's the problem? Where exactly would you need skyfire? IG can get three squadrons of Hydras and I still doubt anyone will take more than a single squadron because weapons with skyfire don't hit ground targets properly.

Twin-linked autocannons, twin-linked assault cannons, twin-linked anything, or just weapons with a high rate of fire otherwise like loota autocannons do solid damage against flyers. There are even some particularly weak flyers like the Stormtalon which for some unknown reason only got 2 hull points while every other flyer got 3 hull points and even super cheap skimmers like the Dark Eldar Raider got 3 hull points. This is a clear exception from the general GW rule that all change benefits Space Marines.

This is an edition of flyers no doubt so if there's any chance that your opponents might have a lot of them (you're going to a tournament for example) you need 3 flyers of your own and a bunch of weapons with a high rate of fire. Other than that, just focus on the mission objectives since an army with a lot of flyers will have very little in the way of objective scoring and objective denial units. That said, I'm not blind to the fact that some armies are very old and might not have enough firepower in general to be able to deal with this but let's face it, there was a lot of stuff they already couldn't deal with because of being so hopelessly outdated. When Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines codices are released I'm sure both of them have flyers of their own and further increasing the amount of flyers in the game, and other units that can in turn fight them. The Flakk Missile for example is clearly reserved for one of them. I remember those twin-missile launcher Dreadnoughts being iconic to the Dark Angels, so maybe they'll get these missiles.

I'd also like to mention that assaulting in general has become slightly weaker. That's just a fact that you can read between the lines in all the rulebook sections. Even those Chimeras with firepoints will overwatch at a unit assaulting them. Everyone is naturally free to play any kind of army they like, but armies that focus nearly entirely on shooting will have very little disadvantages. If you have mainly an assault army and your opponent brings 10 flyers I'm sure there's not much you can do except run to the objectives and go to ground. Your army is simply dead now as a take on all comers list since it can't deal with flyers properly. Once again that said those types of armies already had many types of opponents they couldn't deal with properly. Some players just might not have known that because their regular opponents haven't been hard countering them. The game evolves and the pendulum keeps swinging.

Lastly, don't forget the new rule that if at the end of any game turn your opponent doesn't have any models on the table he automatically loses and the game ends. Full reserve/null deployment is therefore completely impossible and reserving most of your stuff is also very risky. This makes it impossible for full flyer Necron armies to go full reserve and just deploy turn 2 anywhere on the table, so they'll most likely deploy most of their troops on foot and just keep the vehicles themselves in reserve, and that's a different game altogether.