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 Albertorius wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Know a kit with extreme customization and kit bashing potential? Necromunda kits. Know a kit that got a ton of flak for bein too complicated? Necromunda kits. GW will always piss someone off with heir kit decisions. And, truthfully, grumpy old timey gamers are way harder to please even when catering to them and they're the ones that wax nostalgic for hyper customization. It seems a winning move is to cater to the people that want to plug and play with nice sculpted, but hard to customize models. The people pleased by that seem genuinely happier than if you try to create super customization kits.

I think you have a... weird definition of "extreme" customization potential, if Necromunda kits are your example.

You have 5 bodies, that unless you're willing to cut up, will always be the same. Then you have arms and heads options. That's basically it. Hardly "extreme", when compared with things like the ork boyz, for example, and that's not even taking into account the fact that the boyz are compatible with like 90% of the other ork kits.

It is always good to have someone unwittingly illustrate my point so very well

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eventually someone else in this thread is going to realise what the difference between an expansion and DLC is...

Lots of people do. What's missing from the core game that makes it unplayable? Further why is DLC in video games bad? Day zero DLC, sure that's kinda bad. Six months after launch, hardly a cash grab..unless you don't understand how games are made.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eventually someone else in this thread is going to realise what the difference between an expansion and DLC is...

Lots of people do. What's missing from the core game that makes it unplayable? Further why is DLC in video games bad? Day zero DLC, sure that's kinda bad. Six months after launch, hardly a cash grab..unless you don't understand how games are made.

The problem with DLC is that it isn't used to provide extra content occasionally the way say, Bethesda used to do with Elder Scrolls. DLC has become the primary focus for most studios now, constantly releasing new things to purchase, and often it is content without which the game or expansion feels incomplete. Adhering to this model results in flawed, even mediocre games, because resources are allocated to the DLC, because it's the DLC that makes money. This mindset is the reason League of Legends became horribly unbalanced and unwieldy- it's better for Riots's bottom line to release a new broken champ every month along with skins and icons than it is to ensure good gameplay.

The Gang War books are considered DLC because the core experience of the game has been in the past and is considered to be the campaign progression system, 3d terrain and the six original gangs. If you only pick up the starter set you're missing most of those. GW deliberately withheld portions of the ruleset for the sole purpose of forcing people to make extra purchases.

The vast majority of miniature games ever published were one and done. No expansions, no supplements, likely no articles. Why? Historical wargames, for the longest time, didn't do the supplement treadmill or army book type model. Flames of War embracing the GW style release model was a very new thing. And even then, it didn't drive the one and done publishers out of business. They survived just fine.

And now with Osprey Publishing in the game, there are so many widely available fantasy and sci-fi games you can get and play while totally opting out of anything like DLC or a supplement treadmill. Add in print on demand and PDF stores like Wargames Vault and we've never been in a time when more rules are available that don't have additional material in drips and drabs, large supplements or anything like that.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Further why is DLC in video games bad? Day zero DLC, sure that's kinda bad. Six months after launch, hardly a cash grab..unless you don't understand how games are made.

Ever since games stopped being games and became "Live Services".

Oh jeebus, don't use that phrase, if you say it three times a Ubisoft executive will leap through the nearest mirror and claim your soul, condemning it to meaningless icon-clearing for all eternity in their latest open world service: Hell.


Question - have there been any rumblings as to whether we might see the sprues for these models released on their own eventually?

The box has three (technically 4, but one is a duplicate) sprues. These aren't like the Quest heroes where all the minions were on a sprue, but the heroes were all their own thing, easy to put into clampacks.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The box has three (technically 4, but one is a duplicate) sprues. These aren't like the Quest heroes where all the minions were on a sprue, but the heroes were all their own thing, easy to put into clampacks.

Yeah I was assuming it would be more a Kill Team Cassius affair if they did ever break it up, was just wondering if there had been any rumours as to how likely that might be.

I'm betteimg what ever comes in black fortress to be the kits tje get split up. The factions here might get individual kill team releases if you arent interested in the expansion as a whole though

stratigo wrote:
It is always good to have someone unwittingly illustrate my point so very well

It's always good to see people sticking to their guns, facts and reality be damned.

 Albertorius wrote:

stratigo wrote:
It is always good to have someone unwittingly illustrate my point so very well

It's always good to see people sticking to their guns, facts and reality be damned.

Is it really though?

Seems unnecessarily antagonistic.

Oh you wacky kids, let's keep et classy eh?

Does anyone know if the only Vulgrar and the Hullbreachers are unique units (1 per army) or is this true for the Vox shamblers, glitchlings, vermin as well?

This may seem a daft question, but my copy came this morning from an online retailer... but had suffered a fair bit of damage. Is every copy of the game unsealed (no shrink wrap) or is that something else I should be concerned about before opening?

Mine wasn't shrink wrapped- but I got mine from a local shop (Live in Asia, thus I get to live in the future!)

Clockpunk wrote:
This may seem a daft question, but my copy came this morning from an online retailer... but had suffered a fair bit of damage. Is every copy of the game unsealed (no shrink wrap) or is that something else I should be concerned about before opening?

Mine wasn't shrink wrapped - bought from Element Games.

I am pretty sure none of the Kill Team boxes (Kill Teams or Kill Zones) were shrink wrapped - can't remember if the main game box was, but not any subsequent release.

Cheers for confirming, both - mine was also from Element Games - but squished really badly so there is a huge crease in the cover (not major issue, but incredibly annoying as I try to keep my boxes pristine).

Clockpunk wrote:
Cheers for confirming, both - mine was also from Element Games - but squished really badly so there is a huge crease in the cover (not major issue, but incredibly annoying as I try to keep my boxes pristine).

If it is cosmetically damaged you are well within your rights to ask for a replacement.

I have emailed them with photos - and they are being very decent, as always with their service - but I was really looking forward to getting stuck into it today! >.<

So let me get this straight, when Kill Team was first announced people were cynically saying it wouldn't be supported despite claims to the contrary up front from GW, who said expansions would come for the game and there was years of ongoing support planned. These people remained cynical and said they'd believe it when they see it and that this was another one and done game to cash in on new terrain and nothing more.

Now that GW has started to follow through on their promise of expansions and forecast more to come, suddenly ongoing support is a bad thing and GW should have just made a complete one and done game and left it at that.

This place never ceases to amaze me with the mental gymnastics people will do to complain about GW release, especially those that are non essential, optional additions to the core game that is still 100% valid as is.

To be fair its different people complaining about different things; I dont know how the other 40k forums work, but if all of them reach some kind of consistent group consensus about everything... well, that seems rather strange. Stranger than the dakkadakka web of lots of people having lots of opinions all the time.

There are definitely some of the same people complaining, because they complain about anything and everything GW here.

That said, anyone complaining about expansions had prior notice from GW that expansions were coming for Kill Team, so the fact that expansions exist shouldn't be a shock.

As with video game DLC and expansions, they are optional and not required to enjoy the core game.

A lot of gamers, be it digital, tabletop, whatever have this egocentric notion that every product released should cater to them specifically and seem to struggle with the concept that there might be products targeted to people other than themselves. When it repeats over and over and over in every release thread it gets really old. But I'm getting a bit meta and off topic, so I'll drop it.

I would argue about it being the same people, but honestly there's no way I'm going to do the research to actually back that argument up. I'm skeptical of the claim however.

I know what you mean regarding peoples attitudes, but over time I've begun to think its not so much that they (always) view themselves as the center of the universe as much as they don't really know how to articulate outside of themselves, or to trying to phrase what their opinion is in a more general manner.

Funny enough, I think its native English speakers who tend to not put much regard into English phrasing, so their opinion is broadcasted in a way that brings attention onto them and their desires- but it's rare that anyone is truly so rude.

Kill Team isn't a service. It is a product line. Skeletor is not DLC for He-Man. The Barbie Dream House is not DLC for Barbie. The KT core and Killzone boxes are arguably the best value that GW has produced in years.

DLC has many issues, the biggest of which is that when PSN or XBL turn off the servers, you've lost all the patches, DLC, and digital games you "own". There might even be some complete-on-disc games that cease to work when you can't login to PSN/XBL (when my internet went down, I was surprised to see how common this is). Whatever you think about the value of Kill Team products, at least you own them.

 Starfarer wrote:
So let me get this straight, when Kill Team was first announced people were cynically saying it wouldn't be supported despite claims to the contrary up front from GW, who said expansions would come for the game and there was years of ongoing support planned. These people remained cynical and said they'd believe it when they see it and that this was another one and done game to cash in on new terrain and nothing more.

Now that GW has started to follow through on their promise of expansions and forecast more to come, suddenly ongoing support is a bad thing and GW should have just made a complete one and done game and left it at that.

I feel like this is aimed at me?

I fully support Rogue Trader as an expansion that adds 2 new factions and a new environment. I am against "Commanders" in its rumoured form as a DLC that feels to me like it should have been in the base game. If, say, the rules for Fast Attack were cut from 40k and then sold as a separate book, that's not an expansion to me. It's cutting out part of the full game so you can charge me more for the complete experience.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I fully support Rogue Trader as an expansion that adds 2 new factions and a new environment. I am against "Commanders" in its rumoured form as a DLC that feels to me like it should have been in the base game.

Before you knew Commanders was a thing, did you feel like Kill Team was incomplete without them or something like them?

 Sqorgar wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I fully support Rogue Trader as an expansion that adds 2 new factions and a new environment. I am against "Commanders" in its rumoured form as a DLC that feels to me like it should have been in the base game.

Before you knew Commanders was a thing, did you feel like Kill Team was incomplete without them or something like them?

Well said

I can unterstand the desire to have a complete and finished game right with the core box. But that would mean that the game would be dead on arrival. A constant stream of releases is what keeps games alive.
It's like WoW. I had quit several times but new expansions managed to draw me back in at least for a while.
Why is it nearly impossible to find games of old necromunda, epic, warmaster, manowar, etc? Because there was no more support from GW and interest dwindled.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
So let me get this straight, when Kill Team was first announced people were cynically saying it wouldn't be supported despite claims to the contrary up front from GW, who said expansions would come for the game and there was years of ongoing support planned. These people remained cynical and said they'd believe it when they see it and that this was another one and done game to cash in on new terrain and nothing more.

Now that GW has started to follow through on their promise of expansions and forecast more to come, suddenly ongoing support is a bad thing and GW should have just made a complete one and done game and left it at that.

I feel like this is aimed at me?

I fully support Rogue Trader as an expansion that adds 2 new factions and a new environment. I am against "Commanders" in its rumoured form as a DLC that feels to me like it should have been in the base game. If, say, the rules for Fast Attack were cut from 40k and then sold as a separate book, that's not an expansion to me. It's cutting out part of the full game so you can charge me more for the complete experience.

You are totally free to not play with the new options and skills trees and tactics in the Commanders booklet.

The relentless hate some Dakka posters have for new releases, new rules and new games is part of what makes news and rumour threads almost unreadable, because genuine news is swamped with the same half a dozen people who've been hating everything for the last five years posting about how it isn't the perfect product for them and they won't buy it and it is terrible and ruining everything.

Do people not get tired of it? Not get tired of posting almost the same thing in every thread?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:
So let me get this straight, when Kill Team was first announced people were cynically saying it wouldn't be supported despite claims to the contrary up front from GW, who said expansions would come for the game and there was years of ongoing support planned. These people remained cynical and said they'd believe it when they see it and that this was another one and done game to cash in on new terrain and nothing more.

Now that GW has started to follow through on their promise of expansions and forecast more to come, suddenly ongoing support is a bad thing and GW should have just made a complete one and done game and left it at that.

I feel like this is aimed at me?

I fully support Rogue Trader as an expansion that adds 2 new factions and a new environment. I am against "Commanders" in its rumoured form as a DLC that feels to me like it should have been in the base game. If, say, the rules for Fast Attack were cut from 40k and then sold as a separate book, that's not an expansion to me. It's cutting out part of the full game so you can charge me more for the complete experience.

It's aimed at the knee jerk reactions to any tidbit of news from GW that gets blown out of proportion.

We don't know anything about the expansion other than a name, but you already know it's a DLC cashgrab. As Sqorgar said, does playing Kill Team without commanders feel like an incomplete experience to you? It doesn't to me, but I love the option for narrative campaigns. I'll wait to see if that expansion is worth the purchase until we get an actual showcase of it from GW, but if it doesn't look good I'll skip it and keep enjoying Kill Team without it.