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Now then. I've only proxied the models for the games that I've played.
I've faced IG and daemons in the games I've played em.

I've mainly focused on haemonculi coven list styles lately, after some short attempts at mixed, kabal and dl spam lists.
My latest list was something like this:
Urien (for the +1 to str for grotesques) with 4 grotesques coming by wwp.
3 trueborn with blasters in a venom led by a haemy with wwp, to set up a portal 12" in on the first turn, and jump in cover.
9 wracks with liquifier led by a haemy with wwp in a raider who flat outs to set up a wwp on turn 2 for turns 3+ 36"+ from my edge.
10 wracks with a liquifier led by an achothyst who comes by wwp to grab objectives (one of uriens bonus paintokens are given to them)
2x10 scourges with 2 haywire blasters each to harass vehicles from the start
A beastmaster unit to charge out of a wwp
3 taloi with chains and twl heatlances, coming via wwp.
That's 1999 pts

Their latest two games were utter losses by massacre.
(against daemons, i had no beastmasters, one less taloi, but a cronos and an additional grotesque in raider squad.

Now, I know urien isn't very good, but his ability to give grots +1 str is essential for their tankbusting.
I don't see how beastmasters could ever make their points back, cause mine died in a ig countercharge, to 3 flamers. Or rather some fiends and all 3 beastmasters died, and the rest failed the ld5 leadership and ran of the board.
The taloi got wiped the turns they arrived, their 3+ save simply being bypassed by all high-str antitank being directed at them.
The trueborn survived to the end of turn 3, but their boat got blown after firing once, leaving them stranded.
The scourges harassed 2 chims, keeping them from firing, but were ripped to shreads by mortar, battlecannons, a hydra and the rest of the chimera line.

Against daemons, 1 taloi, 1 cronos and 2 haemys were turned to spawns..., the grots then self exploded..

So, after 6+ games, I'm considering shelving the De, without having painted a single model. The theme that drew me in (haemonculi coven, with beasts converted to be failed fleshdolls, herded into battle by wracks on hoverboards, and some trueborn tourists there for the show) has proven a no-go in my local meta.

Next time I have an afternoon off, I'l try the standard 3 venom blasterboats, wyches and ravager list that features heavily in th armylist section here and try it for a game or three, but I don't think it will do much better.

But first, is there anything wrong (beside the opposition, mech guard) with my haemy list and tactics outlined above? Anybody got any helpful ideas or suggestions? (mainly cause the conversions would look awsome).
I just can't seem to make it work against Ig or the fateweaver/kugath daemons that i usually face.
Even trying to 'eadbutt enemy armour with grots doesn't do the trick. As they're then shot to pieces in the enemy turn..

Cheers,
Disgruntled Calle

Jag_Calle wrote:Now then. I've only proxied the models for the games that I've played.
I've faced IG and daemons in the games I've played em.

I've mainly focused on haemonculi coven list styles lately, after some short attempts at mixed, kabal and dl spam lists.
My latest list was something like this:
Urien (for the +1 to str for grotesques) with 4 grotesques coming by wwp. Meh don't like this to point heavy and unreliable for my liking
3 trueborn with blasters in a venom led by a haemy with wwp, to set up a portal 12" in on the first turn, and jump in cover. not a bad unit I'd try to get a 4th trueborn w/blaster in
9 wracks with liquifier led by a haemy with wwp in a raider who flat outs to set up a wwp on turn 2 for turns 3+ 36"+ from my edge.I understand you have wracks to make use of uriens ability but honestly I don't see thier value, I'd prefer to see wyches
10 wracks with a liquifier led by an achothyst who comes by wwp to grab objectives (one of uriens bonus paintokens are given to them)
2x10 scourges with 2 haywire blasters each to harass vehicles from the start 5 could still take 2 haywire blasters and not be wasting all those splinter shots when shooting at vehicles
A beastmaster unit to charge out of a wwp A correctly set up beastmaster squad will kill almost anything
3 taloi with chains and twl heatlances, coming via wwp. Not used Talos (waiting for new model) but I'd say they are ok but the lack of invul coupled with a lack of vehicles in your list makes them an easy target for all your opponents anti - tank
That's 1999 pts

I've added some comments in red.

I've been playing a WWP list since I started with this codex (though this will change once the venom kit and razorwing come out) and don't do badly with it. Here is my current list (which bears some similarity to yours) @1500pts

Haemonculus WWP casket of Flensing and venom blade
Haemonculus WWP Liquifier

4 trueborn w/blasters and haywire grenades in venom w/2 splinter cannons

7 wyches w/haywires; shardnet; hekatrix w/agoniser in raider w/nightshields and enhanced aethersails
7 wyches w/haywires; shardnet; hekatrix w/agoniser
7 wyches w/haywires; shardnet; hekatrix w/agoniser

4 Beastmasters 6 Razorwing flocks; 4 khymaera
5 Scourges w/2 haywire blasters

Chronos w/all options
Ravager w/nightshields and flickerfield
Ravager (3 Dissies) w/nightshields and flickerfield

I think the only real difference between our lists is a little more points efficency (only 5 man squad of scourges) and the 2 Ravagers which as well as providing anti-TEQ and anti-tank give my opponent something for his anti-tank to concentrate on (and with carefull posistioning and night shields frustrate them for a few turns).

The Dark Eldar Codex is a Surgeons tool kit and in the hands of a Surgeon it is lethal in the hands of an architect it is as lethal to it's user as it's opponent. That is to say it is very much a finnesse army in which making a minor mistake will cost you the game, get it right and the DE can table any opponent get it wrong and it's you getting tabled. As with all things practice makes perfect.

I know it's a surgeon kit, much like my regular mass outflanking 36-46 kommandos, 6-9 deffkopta ork blood axe list.
The difference being that orks can survive a salvoe of gunfire.

I'm quite sure that it says in the scourge entry in my book, that one haywire blaster can be taken for every five models. Have I gotten this wrong? Has it been erratad? And if so, could someone link me that errata?

About the beasts, killing whatever it charged from the wwp isn't the problem, the problem is that it takes one salvoe of shooting to kill the beastmasters, leaving the ld5 beasts to take the leadership for taking more than 25% casulties, making them run away. Killing 50-70 pts of guardsmen in exchange for 160+pts for a beastmaster unit, just isn't.

Question, can the wwp carrying haemy still place a wwp in the following turn that his units raider have used aether sails? I'm guessing no, but it has to be asked...

If i go coven again, I'm considering tossing out urien and a talos, in exhange for a new haemy, (to lead the grotesques), a voidraven with shattershards, and probably 2 dark lances for the trueborn for when their transport is popped.
If someone points out where 5 scourges can take 2 haywires, they'll go down to 5, and either adding a third unit of 'em, or another unit of wracks. Odds are that the beast unit will be cut, as it just doesn't seem worth it.

/Calle

Jag_Calle wrote: I know it's a surgeon kit, much like my regular mass outflanking 36-46 kommandos, 6-9 deffkopta ork blood axe list.
The difference being that orks can survive a salvoe of gunfire.

Your problem is that your letting your opponent fire that salvo at you, Orks have the numbers to make up for their poor saves, so orks can take some casualties. Dark Eldars defense is their speed, so you should be able to avoid being shot at at all alot of the time.

Jag_Calle wrote: About the beasts, killing whatever it charged from the wwp isn't the problem, the problem is that it takes one salvoe of shooting to kill the beastmasters, leaving the ld5 beasts to take the leadership for taking more than 25% casulties, making them run away. Killing 50-70 pts of guardsmen in exchange for 160+pts for a beastmaster unit, just isn't.

If they are getting into combat straight away, how are they getting shot at?! I think you must be doing something wrong here, IMO beasts are without a doubt the best unit in the codex. I've used a smaller unit than you have there and have tied up over 300 points for 4 turns, yeah they eventually cave, but you've take an huge chunk out of your opponents army for a really long time, by which point everything else should be dead.

Jag_Calle wrote:If i go coven again, I'm considering tossing out urien and a talos, in exhange for a new haemy, (to lead the grotesques), a voidraven with shattershards, and probably 2 dark lances for the trueborn for when their transport is popped.

Dropping Urien and the Grotesques and the Talos (and probably the Voidraven) would be the best bet. Urien is aweful, grotesques aren't much better and the talos/voidraven are using up the valuable heavy support slots that should be home to 3 ravagers.

Jag_Calle wrote:I know it's a surgeon kit, much like my regular mass outflanking 36-46 kommandos, 6-9 deffkopta ork blood axe list.
The difference being that orks can survive a salvoe of gunfire.

Orkz are a lump hammer to the DE's scalpel.

Jag_Calle wrote:I'm quite sure that it says in the scourge entry in my book, that one haywire blaster can be taken for every five models. Have I gotten this wrong? Has it been erratad? And if so, could someone link me that errata?

p90 DE Codex Scourge entry under Options for every five models in the squad two scourges may replace their shardcarbines with

Jag_Calle wrote:About the beasts, killing whatever it charged from the wwp isn't the problem, the problem is that it takes one salvoe of shooting to kill the beastmasters, leaving the ld5 beasts to take the leadership for taking more than 25% casulties, making them run away. Killing 50-70 pts of guardsmen in exchange for 160+pts for a beastmaster unit, just isn't.

Whats in your beastmaster squad? Razorwing flocks have 5 wounds each, khymaera have an inv, and beastmasters are fodder, with wound allocation you can usually ensure that the last beastmaster stays alive.

Jag_Calle wrote:Question, can the wwp carrying haemy still place a wwp in the following turn that his units raider have used aether sails? I'm guessing no, but it has to be asked...

Your wording is slightly unclear but if your asking whether you can aethersail turbo and then in the same turn place the wwp then you are correct in your assumption that the answer is no. This is because you can't disembark from a vehicle that has moved at flat out speed (>12".

Jag_Calle wrote:If someone points out where 5 scourges can take 2 haywires, they'll go down to 5, and either adding a third unit of 'em, or another unit of wracks. Odds are that the beast unit will be cut, as it just doesn't seem worth it.

Beast units are just that beasts they wreck face.

DE have a steep learning curve. IF you are using Army builder for DE stop. AB if full of errors. WWP priced wrong and weapon miss pricing, Like only two haywire per ten thing. Learn to use would allocation. Replace wracks with wytches. Trade a talos for a chronos.

D'oh. Totallswing and a miss for me on the haywire blasters thank you thats 220 unnecisary points shaved of.

With the aethersails, IIRC it says that the unit in the trandport that uses its aethersails can't shoot in its FOLLOWING turn, so I was wondering since the haemy tecnicly doesn't shoot, but places the wwp instead of shooting, could he still do it?

Ie:
Turn 1: 9 wracks and a haemy with a wwp in raider uses the aethersails and flatout to move 24"+3d6 (or whatever the aether sail bonus is).
Turn two, can they go 12", disembark and then have the haemy place the wwp?

The beasts I used got shot in the enemy turn after having wiped a guardsmen unit. IIRC the unit was 3 beastmasters, 2 razorflocks 5 khymerae and a clawed fiend. Ie 11 models. They suffered 14 wounds, at ap5. All masters, all khymerae died (I placed excess wounds on the khymeras and one on the fiend). The fiend and the flocks then failed their ld test and ran. Hence, I traded 166 pts of beasts, for a 50-60pts guardsmen unit...

And to anyone who says I shouldn't get shot: it's inevitable when facing a mech ig gunline, supported by 2x3 mortars, 2 valks and a vendetta.
Gods how i hate that master of the fleet that delays my reserves...
/Calle

I agree that you aren't doing something right with the beastmaster units. You should have max Razorwing Flocks. With the invul and 6 wounds per flock they should be able to absorb a lot of firepower.

In general WWP armies are fun, but generally considered not very competative as far as DE builds go. I prefer wyches but I think wracks can be decent troops choices with the athocyst and liquifier gun. However I would field them in raiders.

Your biggest problem is probably lack onf anti-tank. Haywire blasters are ok, but the scourges are overpriced and have somewhat short range. Talos are good but you have to wait for them to come in from reserve. Best case scenario you can hit two or three vehicles on your first turn. At 2K points your opponent is going to have a lot more firepower that you need to worry about. This is why most DE players spam Lance Weapons and Wyches with Haywire Grenades.

Also on a sidenote, mechanized guard is hard for all DE players. My only three losses with DE are to mech guard armies.

You want to drop your WWP on turn 1.

Load up your transport, move forward 12" then disembark. At that point the Haemi should drop the WWP. otherwise you run a very real risk of having him killed before he drops it.

Also if you wait until turn 2 to deploy the WWP, then it is turn 3 before any goodness came come out of it.

Drop the fiend. I have 2 of them I may use for Apoc games, but really in a competitive game it is a waste, you could get another 3 kymera or 2 Razorflocks for near the same points or less.

The best thing, if you can do it, is blast the vehicle, then assault the troops inside and if you wipe them out, stay near the wreck for cover. Should not to difficult with beasts with the 12" charge they get.

Your primary opponent is tourney style IG with master of the fleet, and you have a reserve based army, one that is a themed list rather than fully optimal. And you don't seem to have a full grasp of what the codex contains. Is it all that surprising that you lose?

The thing about beasmaster units is you can't really skimp on the things and expect any good results. The min I would consider is 2 beast masters, 5 khymaera, 2 flocks. 114 pts and a decent number of bodies that have saves to dump onto. But it isn't really large enough to make a huge impact. I suggest 5 masters, 10 khymaera, and 6 flocks. That gives you a large unit that can survive shooting, and still deliver the pain when shooting is all said an done.

As for the rest of the army, haermie cults don't actually make good WWP armies, lack of fleet means they suck coming out of the webway. Also, placing the WWP after turn 1 means that half of your reserves will come from off your board edge IIRC, unlike last book, WWP lists don't get their army forced back until the portal is deployed. If you want a WWP list, you really need to go with wyche cult/reavers instead. They have the speed coming from reserve, and the special abilities that make them useful when they do.

If you want a harmie cult list, invest in raider/venom spam. If you can manage to keep a single venom alive for 2 complete turns, imagine what you can do with 10 skimmers.

On my way to work, so a quick response to the wwp bit. I use 2 wwps. One is deployed 12"(deploymentzone)+2"(pivot)+ 12"+2" disembark, on turn one, the second one is placed 12" (deployment)+2"(pivot)+24"(flatout turn one)+12"(regular turn 2 move) +2" (disembark) in my enemys lines.

Jag_Calle wrote:
With the aethersails, IIRC it says that the unit in the trandport that uses its aethersails can't shoot in its FOLLOWING turn, so I was wondering since the haemy tecnicly doesn't shoot, but places the wwp instead of shooting, could he still do it?

p.63 DE Codex - Vehicle Armoury - Enhanced Aethersails - though passengers may not disembark that turn, and the vehicle and it's passengers may not shoot in the following shooting phase.

So you can't disembark that turn or shoot in that turn but the next turn it's back to normal.

Jag_Calle wrote:The beasts I used got shot in the enemy turn after having wiped a guardsmen unit. IIRC the unit was 3 beastmasters, 2 razorflocks 5 khymerae and a clawed fiend. Ie 11 models. They suffered 14 wounds, at ap5. All masters, all khymerae died (I placed excess wounds on the khymeras and one on the fiend). The fiend and the flocks then failed their ld test and ran. Hence, I traded 166 pts of beasts, for a 50-60pts guardsmen unit...

Beasts are usually very hard to counter (sometimes people get lucky) you need to understand all the rules involved to make the most of them namely; Instant Death; wound allocation, cavalry and beasts, assault moves and multi assaults. As already said drop the clawed fiend and up the flocks, for that matter up the beastmasters with either extra flocks or khymaera.

Jag_Calle wrote:And to anyone who says I shouldn't get shot: it's inevitable when facing a mech ig gunline, supported by 2x3 mortars, 2 valks and a vendetta.
Gods how i hate that master of the fleet that delays my reserves...
/Calle

Guard are a hard match up for pretty much any army but DE suffer more than most.

Jag_Calle wrote:On my way to work, so a quick response to the wwp bit. I use 2 wwps. One is deployed 12"(deploymentzone)+2"(pivot)+ 12"+2" disembark, on turn one, the second one is placed 12" (deployment)+2"(pivot)+24"(flatout turn one)+12"(regular turn 2 move) +2" (disembark) in my enemys lines.

Therein is the problem. Your units are fast enough to hot most anything on the board coming out of a WWP.

beasts for example, move 6" out of the portal, fleet for another d6", then assault 12", so you will go at least 19" coming out the portal. you don't need to drop one in the enemy lines, drop both of them about 24" apart( in general) near or just past midway on the table and next turn you will be able to assault most anything.

Hellions ( which is another subject for debate) could also capitalize coming out of a WWP. coming off the table edge they just get very dead very fast. Reavers also can come out and use Heat Lances effectively since the distance they need to go to to get the melta shots is short. All of this is assuming the enemy is deployed on the table edge. If they are deployed forward to the edge of their deployment zone, you will be dropping the WWP in their lines.

The one thing I have picked up on with DE is you need to hit fast and hit hard. You simple do not have the survivability to play defensively, and get shot up waiting to set things up. It just doesn't work.

Wait till you play a marine army where you very quickly find out bolters are AP 5, which = death for DE from shooting. Definitely no fun.

gar wrote: you don't need to drop one in the enemy lines, drop both of them about 24" apart( in general) near or just past midway on the table and next turn you will be able to assault most anything.

Actually from a slightly devious point of view dropping one in your opponents deployment can be advantageous as it forces your opponent into a quandry he either has to commit to surrounding the portal (which should be in assault range of your other portal) or has to move the majority of his army away or his last choice (and my preference sit there thinking they can weather it.

The Strange Dude wrote:

gar wrote: you don't need to drop one in the enemy lines, drop both of them about 24" apart( in general) near or just past midway on the table and next turn you will be able to assault most anything.

Actually from a slightly devious point of view dropping one in your opponents deployment can be advantageous as it forces your opponent into a quandry he either has to commit to surrounding the portal (which should be in assault range of your other portal) or has to move the majority of his army away or his last choice (and my preference sit there thinking they can weather it.

True, and I had considered that, but it became quickly obvious to me that if you did drop one in the enemy deployment zone in assault or near assault range of the other, you would likely have the effect of forcing your opponent to split his forces into 2 smaller forces. the down side being now you need to spread your forces to engage. Plus the extra turn to set it up takes too long, in my opinion. If my beasts or Hellions are ready turn 2, I want them racing out as soon as possible.

De are fast, however, to my thinking it would be preferable to force them to cluster together and surround them or pinned back against their own table edge where if they flee they are off the table.

If we drop each WWP at least 24" in and 24" from each edge, there is almost no place the enemy can run or hide which cannot be reached quickly. This is for a pitched battle deployment. it changes with other deployment scenarios, but having them dropped to apply pressure in a vise type of deployment seems the best way to go.

Jag_Calle wrote:Now then. I've only proxied the models for the games that I've played.
I've faced IG and daemons in the games I've played em.

I've mainly focused on haemonculi coven list styles lately, after some short attempts at mixed, kabal and dl spam lists.
My latest list was something like this:
Urien (for the +1 to str for grotesques) with 4 grotesques coming by wwp.
3 trueborn with blasters in a venom led by a haemy with wwp, to set up a portal 12" in on the first turn, and jump in cover.
9 wracks with liquifier led by a haemy with wwp in a raider who flat outs to set up a wwp on turn 2 for turns 3+ 36"+ from my edge.
10 wracks with a liquifier led by an achothyst who comes by wwp to grab objectives (one of uriens bonus paintokens are given to them)
2x10 scourges with 2 haywire blasters each to harass vehicles from the start
A beastmaster unit to charge out of a wwp
3 taloi with chains and twl heatlances, coming via wwp.
That's 1999 pts

The lack of cheap plentiful DLs in warrior squads and the increase cost decreased availibility of blasters pretty much everywhere in the codex means you need ravagers. I cant think of any list that can deal with mech anything without ravagers. Talos are cool, not really that great but not good enough to displace ravagers.
Heat lances are good on reavers and scourges. Haywire blasters are good when twinlinked on talos. (they want to charge tanks and the extra range helps) On the other hand a heat lance on a talos sucks as they dont have the speed to get into meltra range. Haywire blasters on scourges suck, because why do you care about getting 2 glaces when 1 is usually enough. Secondly haywire blasters suck against infantry but scourges have shard carbines. swap them around.

Urien sucks
Grotesques suck, unless you really really love them dont take them. If you do take them they need to be mounted
Wracks need to be mounted
Beats are AWESOME. Some of the best CC squads out there. Lots of razorwing flocks and enough khymeria to take the ID wounds. You have to multi charge as these units usually end up costing 250+ pts. So you engadge 3+ IG units and maybe a tank and they will enentually die. Even against harder stuff, at least your enemy is tied up and not shooting, so other things can come take them out.
Scourges should be in units of 5. Unless you really like the huge unit with 4 splinter cannons against nids or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jag_Calle wrote:I know it's a surgeon kit, much like my regular mass outflanking 36-46 kommandos, 6-9 deffkopta ork blood axe list.
The difference being that orks can survive a salvoe of gunfire.

If i go coven again, I'm considering tossing out urien and a talos, in exhange for a new haemy, (to lead the grotesques), a voidraven with shattershards, and probably 2 dark lances for the trueborn for when their transport is popped.

/Calle

Orks are nothing like DE, I guess both can be fast and both are not human but that is about it.

a voidraven! you really just want to jump from worst entry in the codex to another. next you will be replacing the trueborn with mandrakes. void ravens are better than a ravager in 2 cases. when firing at a monolyth and when firing at a BT blessed hull land raider. That is it. The sharterhsard(i think you mean implosion missiles) are god aweful too. 30 points each for a one use only small blast template that causes ID. It has absolutely no effect on Daemons. Worst writing ever, the thing is terrible.

Either take blasters or splinter cannons+shardcarbines on your true born. DLs are just not any good on a infantry trooper anymore, may as well convert your old DL models to blaster guys.

I meant the re-roll to wound str 7 missiles, which also work decently to pop chimeras from the side in case it HAS yo die and the voidlances fail to do the trick, or when some infantry is out of charge-range and still needs to die (say a group of longfangs in the backfield).

The only time I could see wyches being better against guard, are when you *really* need that d6 fleet move, and thanks to the haywire grenades against vehicles. And, whilst I havent done the math (at work, no dex with me) wouldn't 30 attacks from wracks with furious charge have the same, or better chance of popping a chimera than 10 haywire grenade armed sisters? (assuming the ig player isn't a dolt whos stayed static...)
Somebody with the dex at hand, and a head for math, feel free to prove me wrong.

Hmm. Might be able to do some work on the wych models to "wrackify" em a bit, with scars, implanted weapons and those slitted wrack helmets and pretend that they're an odd sort of wrack pumped full of adrenaline shots pre battle...

Any ideas how to keep a taloi or two alive? Beside the obvious target saturation with vehicles?

Oh, and as to aethersails, turn one, flatout + sails, turn two, not allowed to shoot, so no wwp placing either, but it's doable on turn three? Correct? Then I'll continue avoiding the sails.

/Calle

Jag_Calle wrote:I meant the re-roll to wound str 7 missiles, which also work decently to pop chimeras from the side in case it HAS yo die and the voidlances fail to do the trick, or when some infantry is out of charge-range and still needs to die (say a group of longfangs in the backfield).

The only time I could see wyches being better against guard, are when you *really* need that d6 fleet move, and thanks to the haywire grenades against vehicles. And, whilst I havent done the math (at work, no dex with me) wouldn't 30 attacks from wracks with furious charge have the same, or better chance of popping a chimera than 10 haywire grenade armed sisters? (assuming the ig player isn't a dolt whos stayed static...)
Somebody with the dex at hand, and a head for math, feel free to prove me wrong.

Hmm. Might be able to do some work on the wych models to "wrackify" em a bit, with scars, implanted weapons and those slitted wrack helmets and pretend that they're an odd sort of wrack pumped full of adrenaline shots pre battle...

Any ideas how to keep a taloi or two alive? Beside the obvious target saturation with vehicles?

Oh, and as to aethersails, turn one, flatout + sails, turn two, not allowed to shoot, so no wwp placing either, but it's doable on turn three? Correct? Then I'll continue avoiding the sails.

/Calle

The reroll to wound missiles dont get to reroll armor penetration, as the rules are poorly written. Then they are AP- to -1 on the damage table. Better to just use the Str6 Ap5 missiles on the razorwing that come free.

Haywire grenades can pen. 10 sisters attacking with haywire shoudl get 1-2 pens that can actually pop a grenade. Wracks, with an extra pain token will only be Str4. So they get 30 attacks to try and GLANCE the thing. Glances cannot wreck or destroy :(. Now wyches have combat drugs, which could get you +1str and then 2 tokens for FNP that would be Str 5 which might actually be able to pop a tank.

*ponders*

You asked if there is anything wrong with your list and tactics....yes.

I would encourage you to check out some of the other WWP lists floating around, and how they are used. I see Dark Eldar like this:

1. They are not a beginner's army.
2. If you choose to play them, you should start with the most competitive army you can figure out with them.
3. When you are destroying people...then start contemplating moving to a more challenging theme that is less competitive.

You're at step #3....and haven't gone through steps #1 and #2 yet?

Two Webway portals....there are four advantageous WWP deployments in my mind.

1. Left of center midfield and right of center midfield.
2. Left of center midfield and below center midfield.
3. Right of center midfield and below center midfield.
4. Touching each other in any of those three midfield positions (left, right, center).

#1 is most useful when your enemy doesn't have the ability to get to and surround your WWPs.
#2 and #3 are most useful when the enemy does have the ability to get to and surround your WWP. They will either surround one, letting you deploy out of the other (which is in movement/assault range of the first), or not surround either, letting you deploy at the enemy deployment zone and move into their backfield.
#4 is most useful when the enemy has the potential to get to and surround a WWP....but not enough units to surround two of them next to each other when they can't pass through the middle.

Now, presuming that you start deploying WWPs on the first turn...because there's no point deploying them on turn two when reserves start coming in and you have no WWP to deploy them out of...I think that their units should be minimal. You *are* flying up to midfield with two units against an entire enemy army. You should expect to lose everything. Wracks can come in a unit size of 3. I think the ideal WWP deployment unit is a haemonculi with a WWP, three wracks, and a venom - taking an extra splinter cannon is debatable - you *should* expect to lose the venom on the opponent turn, and while it would be nice to get to shoot it during the first turn, I wouldn't expect it to survive past the first turn.

Beyond that...there are issues with the things you have coming out of the portals. Your anti-tank is the least effective kind - expensive units toting haywire blasters. If you want effective haywire delivery....wyches! 15 of them. With haywire grenades.

For the rest...I don't really like any of it either, but if you're determined to run that kind of list, at least think about giving yourself the tools to succeed from the start.

sexiest_hero wrote:IF you are using Army builder for DE stop. AB if full of errors.

Really? Mine's up to date and I haven't found any errors in the DE codex, including the Scourges and WWP price.


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Jag_Calle wrote:Oh, and as to aethersails, turn one, flatout + sails, turn two, not allowed to shoot, so no wwp placing either, but it's doable on turn three? Correct? Then I'll continue avoiding the sails.

Doesn't "following shooting phase" mean: Turn one, flatout + sails, not allowed to shoot on the immediately following shooting phase, Turn two, normal movement?

Foo wrote:Really? Mine's up to date and I haven't found any errors in the DE codex, including the Scourges and WWP price.

I believe they were wrong but the latest version fixed them.

Huh. I've been using AB and webway portals for months and never noticed, if it was. Strange!

I know you were going for a Coven theme, but I don't think they are a good enough army to be competitive with.

WWP can work - as long as your stay at 2000pts or more.
15 wyches with haywire grenades and a hexatrix with agonizer is only 210pts. The unit can take on infantry or armor, is relatively fast with fleet, and can take some punishment due to the size of the squad.

I have tried using a Talos, and in fun games will continue to do so, but a Ravager is a much better buy and will usually last longer.

If you want to run grotesques, I would recommend either 4 in a Raider with a haemonculos or 10 out of a WWP, also with a haemonculos. The 10 squad is a ton of points but is a very strong unit that can take up a ton or board space - given cover to wyches behind them.

Against daemons - mass venoms for the win. I haven't even come close to loosing against daemons - but at 1500 pts I usually run 8 venoms.

If you're looking to keep the Haemonculi themed army base, then I recommend this battle report:

Part 1
Part 2

It's an Haemonculi themed army vs Space Marines, no transports.

The Dark Eldar are played by good ol' Shawn from BTP fame.