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Well, it's more that players seemingly don't want the Sisters' identity of being slow, methodical, and burning the ground before them.

Manchu wrote:You say "I want a 5th ed. dex" but your own fandex is full of strange units that do not seem to fit the fluff.

I'm fairly certain my fandex is full of units which fit MY interpretation of the fluff, even if they don't fit yours.

Manchu wrote:Well, I think Sisters already have a very well defined identity that has been watered down by GW's release of C:WH and their neglect of the Sisters since then. A new Codex would be an opportunity to reverse that watering down.

Indeed.

Well, I don't really know how to help with that, other than try to make up more units, which is obviously not what you want. I am sorry that I could not be of any more help.

Melissia wrote:I'm fairly certain my fandex is full of units which fit MY interpretation of the fluff, even if they don't fit yours.

Only fairly certain? Joking aside, that's fine for a fandex. I said pages and pages ago that as far as a fandex goes it's each to his or her own. (Hence why I did not use your thread as a place to criticize Nightflame sisters, etc.) But this thread isn't about making a fandex. This thread is about or was supposed to be about (I know these sorts of things can't really be controlled) a dex published by GW. And your particular idea of what Sisters are like just doesn't cut it in such a discussion when that idea is so far from what is currently out there. It's one thing to argue that the Sisters' already established idetity is X, Y, or Z (as Kanluwen has been doing, whether I agree with him or not). It's another thing to suggest that Sisters fluff should be changed to accommodate an entirely new concept of their identity.


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Slarg232 wrote:I am sorry that I could not be of any more help.

No prob. My solution involves players having to take Sisters as compulsory choices and then being able to commit to taking an Ecclesiarchy HQ that allows taking other Ecclesiarchy options (one unit per type--or maybe some kind of ratio like one Ecc. unit for at least every two SoB units). The counterargument from Tzoo was this would not allow him to make an Ordo Hereticus army. My counter to him was that there is no reason for SoB to be the dex from which an Ordo Hereticus army (whatever that is) should be made any more than SM or IG--which Inqusitors can just as easily conscript. No responses on that line of argument for a long time and I think only 1hadhq has really added much that's on-topic (at least what I intended "on-topic" to mean) since that point.

So back on-topic,

@1hadhq: Your idea of the Sisters have command squad HQs would neatly deal with objections to the compulsory choices problem. Instead of a "Confessor" being a secondary HQ choice he would just be an optional member of the Canonnes's squad that you'd be required to take in order to use Ecclesiarchy choices. I still prefer the Canonness having an SM-style rather than IG-style command squad (command squads being the admitted trend), meaning that her squad wouldn't include a Confessor or a Sister Dialogous or Famulous or Hospitaller, etc. I don't want her to end up as a sort of Inquisitor Lord, after all.

Actually, I'd argue that my interpretation of the Sisters IS more accurate than yours. Otherwise I wouldn't be holding it. But let's not get into that argument, two people whining about eachothers' opinions isn't exactly my idea of a good time.

You'd be wrong though, since a bit of your 'dex is not supported by background--yet at least...

On that note--it's time to TF2.

Melissia wrote:two people whining about eachothers' opinions isn't exactly my idea of a good time

???

I have to agree with Kanluwen. I can't even see how you could argue otherwise.

Off-topic:

Graham D wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Its called humor, if you don't have a sense for detecting it, it will fly right over your head. Kanluwen has a sense of humor, it has atrophied due to the kong hours of training and maintaining psychic discipline, but it is still there.
Try nourishing it and it might develop into something that will make you laugh.

No, what you have there is a collection of mildly offensive words. A joke, by definition, is actually funny. This is neither, both by its extreme age and by its offensive tone.

It would be like trying to defend a watermelon joke to a black poster as unoffensive and cutting-edge humour. If you have anything else to say directly to me on this matter, I'll take it up with you in private. Otherwise, there is nothing more here with any relevance to the topic at hand.

Now this and the entire sequence is hilarious to me. It is funny on three different levels of Irony.

1) Why, because there is a big strong pc nazi trying to protect the wemens folk from sexism. Do you get it? Your actions are by attempting to come to the"ladies" rescue is by definition the highest level of sexist behavior. A truly more evolutionized male would let the handle their own battles. I have no doubt about the ability of any of the "ladies" on this thread's ability to stand up for themselves.

2)That you are trying to protect "female" posters whom are statistically more likely to be guys role-playing a character on the web than they are to be females playing 40K.

3)Finally, your post brought unwanted tension into a thread that was proceeding smoothly. I took your post and played the roll of the bufoon(Yes, I do it quite well, I know.) in order to bring the tone back to a less tense level. I left you an out and you respond with the above post. I find this entire sequence highly amusing.


On-Topic:

@Manchu- I know the connection between the ecclesiarchy and the ministorum but there is a bit of a disconnect. If GW re-writes the fluff, removing the "everywhere there are ecclessiarchy there are Sisters", and makes them a more general force, do you think this would remove some of the sister problems with being a bit to narrowly focused?

focusedfire wrote:@Manchu- I know the connection between the ecclesiarchy and the ministorum but there is a bit of a disconnect. If GW re-writes the fluff, removing the "everywhere there are ecclessiarchy there are Sisters", and makes them a more general force, do you think this would remove some of the sister problems with being a bit to narrowly focused?

The idea that Sisters are narrowly focused as written in C:WH (I mean in crunch capabilities) is a great point that merits more discussion here. The general line as someone may have already brought up is that Sisters currently do okay against a couple of opponents and poorly against the rest. I don't know if that's terribly well established but it seems clear to me that Sisters do need more "coverage." My argument is that restructuring the book to focus on them (as opposed to Inq or Ecc) is the best way to lead them into getting that coverage--which will of course involve giving them new units. But I don't think a fluff-redux separating them from the Ecclesiarchy will help accomplish that. As Melissa said elsewhere, the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy go hand-in-hand.

Manchu wrote:My counter to him was that there is no reason for SoB to be the dex from which an Ordo Hereticus army (whatever that is) should be made any more than SM or IG--which Inqusitors can just as easily conscript. No responses on that line of argument for a long time and I think only 1hadhq has really added much that's on-topic (at least what I intended "on-topic" to mean) since that point.

My response was that they're dropping the allies rules, so that if I want to field OH, then the SoB codex would, in your hypothetical world, be the only place to field the OH from.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:My response was that they're dropping the allies rules, so that if I want to field OH, then the SoB codex would, in your hypothetical world, be the only place to field the OH from.

First off, this OH army: what is it?

Manchu wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:My response was that they're dropping the allies rules, so that if I want to field OH, then the SoB codex would, in your hypothetical world, be the only place to field the OH from.

First off, this OH army: what is it?

Hypothetical Witchhunters Army: GO

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor

Ordo Hereticus Wargear

Freaky Elites units

Stormtroopers or equivilant units

FREAKY FAST ATTACK

FREAKY HEAVY SUPPORTTTTTTT

it's basically an OH inquistor and retinue scaled up to 40k. In all likelyhood it'll just be a modelling project, but if it turns out that it's a viable army, I'd honestly prefer not to have to burn X amount of points on whatever the minimum would be to get the mandatory sisters stuff out of the way. The required units in and of themselves don't increase the number of different options that the codex has, they just restrict the choices the player can make.

It sounds like what you really want is an Inquisition book (whether combined or Hereticus, I can't say). I'm cool with that. But Sisters have no place in it. No more a place, that is, than Space Marines or Imperial Guard. Deathwatch would definitely be in. GK . . . that's a trickier question but they fit the bill a lot better than Sisters. The problem with what you've just posted is, of course, that there aren't existing choices for most of the slots much less the one or two choices that you'd really need to have a dex. That's why they got tacked onto the Sisters in the first place. (And, thankfully for them, why the SoB and GK made it into 3rd at all, it seems.)

Bottom line: Sisters should be much more than a gap-filler for an incomplete Inquisition codex.

For the OH, we can add in arbities. So we could have your standard arbities with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version arbities (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Lemn Rushes. The arbities could fill in the gap left by the sisters.

Manchu wrote:I have to agree with Kanluwen. I can't even see how you could argue otherwise.

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Just because a unit didn't exist before doesn't make it unfluffy. What matters is if it fits into the theme of the army. Take Thunderfire Cannons, for example-- they didn't exist before fifth edition, but because they're compact and sturdy enough to be drop podded, they are able to be quickly deployed for short-ranged artillery support, and therefor fit within the Marine concept. I believe every single one of the units in my codex do fit within the theme of the army, or I wouldn't have added them in the first place.

And yes, people HAVE tried to argue that Thunderfire Cannons are unfluffy, by the way.

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:I have to agree with Kanluwen. I can't even see how you could argue otherwise.

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Just because a unit didn't exist before doesn't make it unfluffy. What matters is if it fits into the theme of the army. Take Thunderfire Cannons, for example-- they didn't exist before fifth edition, but because they're compact and sturdy enough to be drop podded, they are able to be quickly deployed for short-ranged artillery support, and therefor fit within the Marine concept.

And yes, people HAVE tried to argue that Thunderfire Cannons are unfluffy, by the way.

I thought they stole the thundefire cannon from the squats?

Dunno, I don't have C:SM, but I doubt it. My point was that they add in new units and concepts every edition, units and concepts that didn't exist before.

@Melissa: You're making my point for me. You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

Well I don't know if it is worth anything but in the same section(Defenders of the Imperium) on the next page(page 122) of the BRB, the Grey Knights are made to sound like they are the Inquisition.

This combined with the previous point about the Sisters in that section, it does sound like there will be a distancing between the two armies.


Does anyone have background that gives hints to ministorum forces other than the Ecclesiarchy, Storm troopers, Sisters? Leave out the GK and the =I= and what do you have left?

Necrosis wrote:For the OH, we can add in Arbites. So we could have your standard Arbites with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version Arbites (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Leman Russes. The Arbites could fill in the gap left by the Sisters.

Uh, no. They couldn't. Arbites, while well-trained, are a glorified police force.

Really. That's all they are. If things have escalated to the point wherein an Inquisitor has become involved and actually has carte blanche to start requisitioning forces...

Things are fethed beyond belief, and a bunch of cops with riotguns aren't going to do jack.
That's where the Sisters and Interior Guard/Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are used.
TL;DR version:
No. Dumb idea.

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:For the OH, we can add in Arbites. So we could have your standard Arbites with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version Arbites (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Leman Russes. The Arbites could fill in the gap left by the Sisters.

Uh, no. They couldn't. Arbites, while well-trained, are a glorified police force.

Really. That's all they are. If things have escalated to the point wherein an Inquisitor has become involved and actually has carte blanche to start requisitioning forces...

Things are fethed beyond belief, and a bunch of cops with riotguns aren't going to do jack.
That's where the Sisters and Interior Guard/Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are used.
TL;DR version:
No. Dumb idea.

They are equipped well engough to fight a minor war.
A single precinct courthouse functions as a base for a complete and fully-equipped army, capable of fielding vehicles, including Rhinos, Chimeras and even Leman Russ tanks as required.

Even if the Arbites were a more coherent force, sticking them with the Inq would just be a repeat of what was done to the Sisters. The core of the Inq problem is that they just aren't an army. At most, they are a HQ choice with one troops choice--until a whole codex is invented for them.

focusedfire wrote:Well I don't know if it is worth anything but in the same section(Defenders of the Imperium) on the next page(page 122) of the BRB, the Grey Knights are made to sound like they are the Inquisition.

This combined with the previous point about the Sisters in that section, it does sound like there will be a distancing between the two armies.


Does anyone have background that gives hints to Ministorum forces other than the Ecclesiarchy, Storm troopers, Sisters? Leave out the GK and the =I= and what do you have left?

The Ecclesiarchy=Adeptus Ministorum so there's no real "forces" there--along with Grey Knights not falling under their purview anyways.

But pretty much all the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to have:
Frateris Militia
Schola Progenium and an amount of what they produce. They're not allowed to maintain Stormtroopers, since that would be having an organized military force consisting of males. Which is a big no-no because of the Frateris Templar and the Vandire shenanigans.
Sisters of Battle.

That's it for their forces, at least officially. I'm sure they could, if they wanted, convert some Guard regiments to their call if necessary, or start up a rabblerousing to get "loyal servants of the Throne!" up in arms for them.


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Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Necrosis wrote:For the OH, we can add in Arbites. So we could have your standard Arbites with shot guns. We could also have the close combat version Arbites (the riot police version with the shield and batons). They also have Repressor and Leman Russes. The Arbites could fill in the gap left by the Sisters.

Uh, no. They couldn't. Arbites, while well-trained, are a glorified police force.

Really. That's all they are. If things have escalated to the point wherein an Inquisitor has become involved and actually has carte blanche to start requisitioning forces...

Things are fethed beyond belief, and a bunch of cops with riotguns aren't going to do jack.
That's where the Sisters and Interior Guard/Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are used.
TL;DR version:
No. Dumb idea.

They are equipped well engough to fight a minor war.
A single precinct courthouse functions as a base for a complete and fully-equipped army, capable of fielding vehicles, including Rhinos, Chimeras and even Leman Russ tanks as required.

Hahaha what?

No, they're really not. They're equipped to put down small Cult actions, at best. Anything more and the PDF has to get involved.

They, by the by, do not have Leman Russes.

Kanluwen wrote:
Hahaha what?

No, they're really not. They're equipped to put down small Cult actions, at best. Anything more and the PDF has to get involved.

They, by the by, do not have Leman Russes.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Arbites

This says other wise.

Manchu wrote:You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

So are you.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sure they could, if they wanted, convert some Guard regiments to their call if necessary, or start up a rabblerousing to get "loyal servants of the Throne!" up in arms for them.

Actually that's the Frateris Militia.


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Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: You're making my point for me. You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

So are you. Congratulations.

Actually not at all. Congratulations to you!

Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

The Frateris Militia is, technically, male servants of the ecclesiarchy . initiates, priests, choir boys, etc.


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Manchu wrote:Actually not at all. Congratulations to you!

Oh yes you are. Unless you're going to try and claim you know exactly what GW has in mind, you are working with your OWN ideas on how they are and how they should be. And if you DO want to claim that, insert lol here.


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Kanluwen wrote:Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

But they can purchase them. THey don't need as many as the Guard does.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sure they could, if they wanted, convert some Guard regiments to their call if necessary, or start up a rabblerousing to get "loyal servants of the Throne!" up in arms for them.

Actually that's the Frateris Militia.

Technically, but they theoretically could get particularly zealous Imperial Guard regiments to come to their aid.



[quote=Manchu

Melissia wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: You're making my point for me. You're not arguing from what Sisters are established to be. You have an idea about what they should be like.

So are you. Congratulations.Actually not at all. Congratulations to you!

Melissia:
Manchu is using what, currently, is the Sisters of Battle's order of battle. Notice: there's no bikers, no ninja Sisters, no Marksman Bolters, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's wrong, because they do not have Leman Russes readily available to them. Most PDFs do not even have Leman Russes available to them.

Arbities are not PDF. Get your facts straight.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/PDF