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I've been a Ultramarine player for some time now, but am a bit tired of the well armoured super humans hiding safely in their rolling boxes and looking to play something more interesting.

So my eye turned to the dark eldars which has very nice models, seems fun to play and will require a totally different tactic.

I'm not looking for something ultra competitive as I'm only playing for fun with friends. But the army should be able to do some damage, preferably in assault as I have played gunline marines for too long.
My target is to have 750 point painted as soon as possible.

So I was thinking to start with the boxed set; 3 Reavers, 10 Warrior, 10 Wyches and 1 Raider, and expand that with:

3 more reavers
either a Raider or two venoms (for the wyches)
one HQ (unsure what role it should take)

My question is now: Which HQ will fit into this list?
Do I have room for any other recommended units?
Is it better to split the warrior and whych squad to be able to get more raiders and venoms?

In 750 I would start with a haemonculus and stuff it in a raider with 9 wyches to give them some durability.

Later you could consider a tooled up archon for taking out characters and such.

A lot of people will tell you that Venom spam is the only way to play DE. I tend to disagree somewhat and, when I experimented with a DE list, I came up with something very close to what you've already mentioned.

Wyches need to be in big squads, so a second Raider is a good idea to ensure both your squads can move around the board quickly. I'd also consider giving the squad a Hekatrix w/ agoniser (it nullifies your low starting S and ensures a few kills), a hydra gauntlet (more attacks is awesome!) and a shardnet and impaler. You need to be careful where you place your models so that the shardnet gets into contact with the enemy Sergeant, as reducing them to a single attack makes that power fist a monumental waste of points.

Reavers are awesome, and for the HQ I'd probably opt for an Archon w/ an Incubi bodyguard in a Raider. It can strike at the same time as the Wyches and should get you pretty comfortably to 1000pts. The models look pretty damn awesome too!

L. Wrex

I recommend Wych spam; a lot of people vouch for Venom spam as its just massed venoms. Its pretty much a point and click army for the most part and does reasonably well; my issue with it is if your dice hate you (aka you cant pop a tank to save your left) your pretty boned. Venoms don't do diddly against even the flimsiest tin box.

That being said, a good starter army would be:

- Haemunculus - 50 pts
- Haemunculus - 50 pts
7x Wyches - Agonizer, haywire grenades - Raider w/ flickerfield - 184
7x Wyches - Agonizer, haywire grenades - Raider w/ flickerfield - 184
Ravager - 3x DL's - 115 pts
Ravager - 3x DL's - 115 pts

Total: 698 pts

This gives you two hammer units with some survivablity and a bunch of high str shooting.

This is all personal opinion though; I love Wych cult lists or webway lists. I hate venom spam; yes, its good, but its a one trick pony where you have to disembark half the time to shoot and get range. If your plan fails, ultimately you get chopped up. Venom's rarely flat out because your just jockying to get your warriors to shoot stuff. Like I said; point and click. Thats why I think a lot of people like the list, its as easy to play as a razorspam list, except you have a LOT more stuff on the field.

Hey zid,idd venomspam only goes that far,
imo venoms are good to carry blasterporn or some incubi's but that is about it.

Last game i had my whyches powered by the double roll the duke gives them... with fnp cut down a squad of bezerkers. so really they aint that bad at all. With haywires nothing is safe from them
although i do hate heamonculus into squads as they dont fleet, and dropping them off on the way is bit costly...

What about and seeing what you have:

Duke Sliscuss

9 warriors, blaster, raider, splinterrack, flickerfield
8 Whyches, haywires,champ, agonizer, raider, flickerfield

3 Reavers, heatlance

Ravager Flickerfield

you will have a bit of everything, 2 rolls for the drugs, some poisoned shooting and some tankbusting capability

Kajon wrote:
So I was thinking to start with the boxed set; 3 Reavers, 10 Warrior, 10 Wyches and 1 Raider, and expand that with:

3 more reavers
either a Raider or two venoms (for the wyches)
one HQ (unsure what role it should take)

My question is now: Which HQ will fit into this list?
Do I have room for any other recommended units?
Is it better to split the warrior and whych squad to be able to get more raiders and venoms?

In a low point game the only realy viabe option is the Haemonculus. They are very good at any point level, but at only 50 points each they are perfect in small games.
Try and squeeze in a Ravager or two, they are useful at any point level and most people think they are the best heavy support option.
I'd split the Warriors into two squads and take two Venoms, then leave the Raider for the Wyches.

I'd suggest something like:

Haemonculus - Liquifier (60)
9 Wyches - Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agoniser (138)
Raider - Flickerfields (70)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

Ravager - Fickerfield (115)

Ravager - Fickerfield (115)

748 points

If you're really keen to include the Reavers then you could drop a Ravager, up to you

Personally, if I am using a transport for assault units, I'd rather use a Raider instead. Reasons:
-Duality: DE assault is primarily anti-infantry. So take an AT transport.
-Larger Hull: Can start the game turned to the side then spin for extra movement.
-Relevant upgrades: Prows and Aethersails either let me tankshock blocking infantry out of the way (or prime assaults to go in your favor. Hit a blob in the center, then assault from the sides, knowing your opponent cannot react) or get into the fight faster.

Venoms I prefer for Blaster-toting units. Or occasionally Harlequins if doing ride-jacking shenanigans.

Gorechild wrote:
Haemonculus - Liquifier (60)
9 Wyches - Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agoniser (138)
Raider - Flickerfields (70)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

Ravager - Fickerfield (115)

Ravager - Fickerfield (115)

748 points

This looks like a really good list for the low points level. I would wholeheartedly recommend this. Like Gorechild said, if you wanna include the Reavers, you could leave a ravager behind. I'd run your Reavers with a heat lance and nothing more, since they're not the most durable unit out there. It keeps them cheap enough that I've had more than one opponent forget about them entirely until they're cutting up their favorite tank. That would also free up enough points to do some shenanigans with your Wyches and Haemonculus. You could raise the Wyche squad size to 10, and buy them a Shardnet and Razorflails (Another poster demonstrated on how a Shardnet can neuter a powerfist, and razorflails get more wounds than Hydra Gauntlets nine times out of ten) and then deploy the Wyches and Haemonculus outside of their transport. They separate from the Haemonculus on Turn 1, take the pain token with them, and head off to do their dirty deeds while the Venoms move on ahead to pop open some vehicles on turn 1, leaving their juicy contents to your scantily clad gladiators on turn 2. The only problem with this would be your Haemonculus sitting in the back field the entire game without a ride. You can either treat him like a 50 point tax to get a pain token on your Wyches, or buy him a Hexrifle so he can at least score a few kills.

Venoms with 5-man kalabite squads w Blaster
Raiders with 10-man kalabite squad w Spinter Cannon.

Either works well providing good anti-tank and anti-personnel.

In a small points game perhaps -
1 archon with CCW & Pistol
2 medusae
2 females that grant 2+ poison attacks to ranged and CC. (lammean??)

Put this in a venom.
For about 200 pts it should give you all the lethality you need at small points totals. I think this is strong to about 1000 pts but really will suffer above that.

I have to also recommend Gorechild's list. In fact, it's the same list that I run at 750 (kinda eerie when I saw it). It really is a solid, all-around list that can deal with multiple threats (plus, it's symmetrical, and it looks really cool in my opinion to have a raider in the center of your deployment flanked by two venoms, who are then flanked by two ravagers--like a v-formation).

DAaddict wrote:In a small points game perhaps -
1 archon with CCW & Pistol
2 medusae
2 females that grant 2+ poison attacks to ranged and CC. (lammean??)

Put this in a venom.

That would be strong and cheap, but also illegal. The Court requires you to take 1 of each type at a minimum.

Also note that the Archon is not required to go with the Court.

Thanks for all the nice tips.

I really want to fit some reavers into it... since I already own 3 and would like to take advantage of the
Battleforce box.

Gorechilds list seems close to what I want. So I was thinking about something like this:


Haemonculus - Liquifier (60)
9 Wyches - Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agoniser (138)
Raider - Flickerfields, Enhanced Aethersails (75)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

Ravager - Fickerfield, Night Shield (125)

4 Reavers - Heat lance (100)

Total: 748 points


(edit: calculated costs wrong)

MagicJuggler wrote:Personally, if I am using a transport for assault units, I'd rather use a Raider instead. Reasons:
-Duality: DE assault is primarily anti-infantry. So take an AT transport.
-Larger Hull: Can start the game turned to the side then spin for extra movement.
-Relevant upgrades: Prows and Aethersails either let me tankshock blocking infantry out of the way (or prime assaults to go in your favor. Hit a blob in the center, then assault from the sides, knowing your opponent cannot react) or get into the fight faster.

Venoms I prefer for Blaster-toting units. Or occasionally Harlequins if doing ride-jacking shenanigans.

I'm always dubious about whether this is legal or not. It seems a very cheap way to play the system IMO and probably won't be allowed, and definitely won't be looked kindly upon, in many gaming circles.

L. Wrex

Glad you liked it it's pretty generic, but should be able to do most things well.

Kajon wrote:
Haemonculus - Liquifier (60)
9 Wyches - Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Agoniser (138)
Raider - Flickerfields, Enhanced Aethersails (75)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

5 Warrirors - Blaster (60)
Venom - Extra Splinter Cannon (65)

Ravager - Fickerfield, Night Shield (125)

4 Reavers - Heat lance (100)

Total: 748 points


(edit: calculated costs wrong)

If you really like the reavers then you can include them, I got 6 when they 1st came out so I understand you wanting to use them if you've got them.
I'd suggest you drop the Nightshield on the Ravager so you can give the Wych unit a Shardnet/Impaler instead. You'll find that the -6" range doesn't make much difference most the time. If you're in a position where you can hurt your opponent, the things that will be shooting your vehicles (missile launchers ect) will still be in range even with their range reduced. The net really helps your wyches to bog down your enemy in combat.
Other than that it's looking pretty solid!

DAaddict wrote:Venoms with 5-man kalabite squads w Blaster
Raiders with 10-man kalabite squad w Spinter Cannon.

Either works well providing good anti-tank and anti-personnel.

I completely disagree with this.

For the longest time, I tried to make the 10man kabalite squad with splinter cannon in a raider work. Simply put, its anti-infantry firepower is too short range and has limited mobility. The blaster being an assault weapon is better than the splinter rifle or cannon at moving and shooting.

The 5 man blaster squad in a venom is much superior to the 10 man cannon in a raider, and is cheaper.

Every game I played over the course of 6 months showed the 10 man cannon in a raider squad to be the least effective for its cost unit.

The point of the Warrior squad w/ SC is to use the Raider's speed to get onto an objective/advantageous position and then disembark and shoot for the rest of the game. With 23 poisoned 4+ shots + a shredder it can lay down some serious anti-infantry firepower.

L. Wrex

Dracos wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Venoms with 5-man kalabite squads w Blaster
Raiders with 10-man kalabite squad w Spinter Cannon.

Either works well providing good anti-tank and anti-personnel.

I completely disagree with this.

For the longest time, I tried to make the 10man kabalite squad with splinter cannon in a raider work. Simply put, its anti-infantry firepower is too short range and has limited mobility. The blaster being an assault weapon is better than the splinter rifle or cannon at moving and shooting.

The 5 man blaster squad in a venom is much superior to the 10 man cannon in a raider, and is cheaper.

Every game I played over the course of 6 months showed the 10 man cannon in a raider squad to be the least effective for its cost unit.

Well, I guess it is tactics. I play 5 raiders with 10-man kalabite squads and only have two losses to show for it. One against a deathwing and the other against slaanesh demon (fiend) speed. I would agree that one squad is pretty weak but drop 2 or 3 within 12" and you have 44 to 66 poison weapon attacks. It works.

But I can't argue against the venom as that provides 12 poison attacks out to 36". It is really a matter of do you want high speed anti-infantry or high speed anti-tank? 12" movement precludes any mounted fire and dropping a 5-man out to get that blaster shot is asking for it IMHO.

I have been playing some low level games, and have a list at 750 that looks like this:

Succubus w/ agonizer

5 warriors, blaster in venom w/ 2 splinter cannons
5 warriors, blaster in venom w/2 splinter cannons

8 wyches w/haywire grenades in raider

ravager 3 dark lances
razorwing no upgrages

In low point cost battles, the succubus shines. The invulnerable CC save, high Initiative, great power weapon attacks for low points cost makes the succubus a hero. I always take haemonculi with wyches in larger battles, but at low points cost, I find the haemonculi to be too much of a liability, giving away a fast KP. I try to stay out of range of most of the armies guns, drop the long range stuff first, and then fly around blasting stuff until they are sufficiently worn down. The wyches can rush in and take out important targets, or hold back and become a blocking/counter attack unit.

Once I get over about 1250 points, I get a couple of haemonculi with wyches, and either an archon or the Duke. Duke, wyches, succubus and reavers would be a good mix too with everyone on drugs.

A naked homunculus is practically 50 points for a pain token. If you're planning to use him for something other than that, you either want a liquifier or a shattershard to go with him. They are both worth the points.

somerandomdude wrote:

DAaddict wrote:In a small points game perhaps -
1 archon with CCW & Pistol
2 medusae
2 females that grant 2+ poison attacks to ranged and CC. (lammean??)

Put this in a venom.

That would be strong and cheap, but also illegal. The Court requires you to take 1 of each type at a minimum.

Also note that the Archon is not required to go with the Court.

darn a well then I would never take that in avenom. >sigh>

Good topic guys! I'm in a same situation as OP and this was a great help. DE Battle force is very good compared to other armies, where at least half of the models aren't very usable. One question though. Where you get enough blasters for kabalite? One/ten kabalite isn't enough.

The list here is quite same I have been thinking. I have wracks in venoms added to list, but really can't comment on their efficiency since my first game is yet to come.

Vasara wrote:Good topic guys! I'm in a same situation as OP and this was a great help. DE Battle force is very good compared to other armies, where at least half of the models aren't very usable. One question though. Where you get enough blasters for kabalite? One/ten kabalite isn't enough.

The list here is quite same I have been thinking. I have wracks in venoms added to list, but really can't comment on their efficiency since my first game is yet to come.

I have heard of people using the bike blasters to get extra blasters.

Vasara wrote:Good topic guys! I'm in a same situation as OP and this was a great help. DE Battle force is very good compared to other armies, where at least half of the models aren't very usable. One question though. Where you get enough blasters for kabalite? One/ten kabalite isn't enough.

The list here is quite same I have been thinking. I have wracks in venoms added to list, but really can't comment on their efficiency since my first game is yet to come.

Scourges are a great source of spare weapons, and scourges themselves can be really good, you should check them out.

5 Warrirors with a Blaster costs the exact same as 5 Wracks with a Liquifier. If you play in a less vehicle-dominant area then Wracks in a Venom make a very good replacement for the generic 5 Warrior/Blaster/Venom squad you see in 99% of the army lists here on Dakka.

eldaraddict wrote:I have been playing some low level games, and have a list at 750 that looks like this:

Succubus w/ agonizer

5 warriors, blaster in venom w/ 2 splinter cannons
5 warriors, blaster in venom w/2 splinter cannons

8 wyches w/haywire grenades in raider

ravager 3 dark lances
razorwing no upgrages

Interesting. The succubus is nasty in CC, but I feel the wyches would miss the pain token from the haemonculus.

Is the razorwing any good?

Razorwings are fantastic, but one with a flickerfield and Splinter cannon will run you exactly 50 points more than a Ravager with a flickerfield.

They also have only two dark lances as opposed to three, so while they can tank hunt effectively they can't do so as well as the Ravager. I wouldn't ever run Razorwings in a venom spam list, where dakkavenoms covers the anti-infantry well enough, and you're really lacking in 36" anti-tank weapons. If you prefer using Raiders over Venoms though, the minor loss of anti-tank weapons from the Heavy Support slots is more than made up for in dedicated transports.

I agree that the wyches really need the FNP pain token. The key is to get your own pain token from taking down a weakened squad with the succubus and the wyches. I agree that the wyches really need the FNP pain token.

The razorwing rocks. Lokas broke it down well. With this list, I generally stay out of range shooting stuff, and then swoop in for the kill once I have worn them down some. Sometimes the wyches have to play double duty with their haywire grenades to take town a tank, if I can't get it with the ravager or razorwing. At lower point levels I really like to have units that can take out armor or infantry. You never know what you are going to face, and when you start losing stuff, you need redundancy. Wyches, razorwing w/dark lances, venom/blaster warrior squads, all do both.

I like the succubus to help the wyches get that token, and sometimes you need an answer for a marine HQ.

Wait, you can't have a mixed court?

Like, you can't have a medusae and a sslyth in the same unit?

DAaddict wrote:Venoms with 5-man kalabite squads w Blaster
Raiders with 10-man kalabite squad w Spinter Cannon.

Either works well providing good anti-tank and anti-personnel.

In a small points game perhaps -
1 archon with CCW & Pistol
2 medusae
2 females that grant 2+ poison attacks to ranged and CC. (lammean??)

Not much point in 2 Lhameans, kill 1 and medusae and get a sslyth.

Put this in a venom.
For about 200 pts it should give you all the lethality you need at small points totals. I think this is strong to about 1000 pts but really will suffer above that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
He also said he wanted a non-gunline army, so WYCH SPAM!

DreadlordME! wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Venoms with 5-man kalabite squads w Blaster
Raiders with 10-man kalabite squad w Spinter Cannon.

Either works well providing good anti-tank and anti-personnel.

In a small points game perhaps -
1 archon with CCW & Pistol
2 medusae
2 females that grant 2+ poison attacks to ranged and CC. (lammean??)

Not much point in 2 Lhameans, kill 1 and medusae and get a sslyth.

Put this in a venom.
For about 200 pts it should give you all the lethality you need at small points totals. I think this is strong to about 1000 pts but really will suffer above that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
He also said he wanted a non-gunline army, so WYCH SPAM!

followed by...WEBWAY WRACK SPAM!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Wait, you can't have a mixed court?

Like, you can't have a medusae and a sslyth in the same unit?

Yes you can, infact you have to! the unit entry says it must contain 1-X of each model, so once you have one Ur-Ghul, Sslyth, Medusae and Lhamean you can add more of any type.