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150 - Duke Sliscus
120 - Haemonculi with 2 Liquifiers

173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon

125 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
125 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
171 - Kabalite Warriors x9 with Raider, Night Shields, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks
210 - Wyches x9 with Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider with Night Shields, Flickerfield
210 - Wyches x9 with Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider with Night Shields, Flickerfield

130 - Scourges with 2 Haywire Blasters

175 - Razorwing with Disintigrators
175 - Razorwing with Disintigrators
175 - Razorwing with Disintigrators

Duke joins the 9 man Kabalite unit in the Raider, Scourges Deepstrike, and then I should have pretty decent Anti Tank and anti infantry all around? Razorwings mess up hordes and MEQ, lots of Splintercannons, decent counter attack with Wyches and Haemonculi. Perhaps I need more AT?

More AT would be a good idea. Ravagers with flickerfields are very good AT units, and the best way to get DL's.

Take off the NS on the Raiders, not too useful.

Switch out the Razorwings for Ravagers with FF's, unless your meta is mostly horde armies, then by all means keep them, but 4 Venom's will do the job nicely also.

Trying to not give into the standard net list, I really love the model for the Razorwing. Could I switch them over to Lances and do better than what I have now, but still keep the Razorwing?

If you like the Razorwings, then by all means, keep them!
Using a model you like is the best reason to use it

And yes, did not notice the DL's on the Razorwings. Not as much as 3 Ravagers, but you have a lot of Blasters running around too. So, keep them, but give them DL's.

Also, are using the Scourges because you like the models?

I had an extra amount of points, and didn't really know where to spend it. I do like the models, but not as much as the Razorwings. What would you suggest replacing them with?

If you remove them, and take of the NS's on the Raiders, that gives you 150 points.

But I am not sure. Really, anything you put in the FA slot would just augment your force. If you like the Scourges enough, then you can keep them.

Still, I would recommend taking off the NS's. Because they will be moving close, taking 6" off is not really that good.

Using those 20 points, I would give the Scourges either DL's or Blasters, which would bring their cost up to 140. Then you can use the remaining 10 points on something.

I think I will upgrade them to Dark Lances. Do I recall right in that Jump Pack infantry have relentless?

Only models with Jet Packs have relentless, but because Scourges are Jump Infantry, they do not.

Definitely DLs on the Razors. You might find that a mix of Razorwings and Ravagers would help your army take out more armor. The problem is that a lot of opponents are all meched up. You have to pop a few cans to be able to unload those tasty blast templates in a lot of cases.

Five Scourges are not very survivable...That's their main problem. They can work though. Haywires are a pretty sure glance but with only two it's hard to get the vehicle kill...

Personally, I'd try to max out your troops with another kabalite squad.

The Scourges were originally Suicide Units, that would enter via deepstrike next to a vehicle, stop it from hurting me if it was doing so, and then die like crazy winged people.

Just a bit of perspective. Same BS. DLs glance on a +4, pen on a +5. Haywires glance on +2, pen on a 6. Assuming armor is ≤12. On weaker armor, the DL starts to close the gap considerably on av11 glance on +3, +2 on av10. The point is that all of those have a considerably higher chance to pen and destroy the vehicle...

I love the concept of haywire blasters I just...There's no good platform for them. It's sad. Is the 130 pts worth the glances? I suppose they distract a small amount of...small arms fire as well.

Possibly give them heat lances or blasters if you want to scourgicide them.

The blaster v heat lance debate is much more up in the air, all depends on that melta sweet spot of 9".

I also love the model for the razorwing, but I forced myself to just look at the ravager's pic in the codex and I now love that model(not as much) and it's cheaper so you can upgrade your scourges which are really cool when acting as a shield for warriors giving them 4+ and shooting down infantry with Assault 3 weapons.

I think that's the one thing I'm not really willing to change about my list. I might drop ONE of them for another cool model, such as a Chronos/Talos.

Does anyone know if there is going to be a model for the Voidraven? I'd love to get two Razorwings and a Voidraven. Would be pretty cool. Or possibly Harlequins!

I'd have to disagree, Dark lances on a Razorwing isn't a great idea. Razorwings are great anti-Infantry, if you replace the disintegrators with Dark Lances you're left with a problem: fire the plate at troops and waste the advantages of the lances, or fire the lances at vehicles and end up not firing the missiles (or using them ineffectually).

That does leave you with a massive lack of anti-tank though.... more Trueborn or Scourges could sort that out though.

Sekai wrote:150 - Duke Sliscus
120 - Haemonculi with 2 Liquifiers

173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon

125 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
125 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
171 - Kabalite Warriors x9 with Raider, Night Shields, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks
210 - Wyches x9 with Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider with Night Shields, Flickerfield
210 - Wyches x9 with Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider with Night Shields, Flickerfield

130 - Scourges with 2 Haywire Blasters

175 - Razorwing with Disintigrators
175 - Razorwing with Disintigrators
175 - Razorwing with Disintigrators

Duke joins the 9 man Kabalite unit in the Raider, Scourges Deepstrike, and then I should have pretty decent Anti Tank and anti infantry all around? Razorwings mess up hordes and MEQ, lots of Splintercannons, decent counter attack with Wyches and Haemonculi. Perhaps I need more AT?

Sekai wrote:The Scourges were originally Suicide Units, that would enter via deepstrike next to a vehicle, stop it from hurting me if it was doing so, and then die like crazy winged people.

Razorwings with Lances, a Splintercannon, Flickerfield and Monoscythes are great. Night Shields are an option too, but are invaribly first thing dropped in a points crunch.
165 without NS, 175 with.

I want to get myself another 1-2 just cos they're fun, though they distract from my Talos slots :(

Scourges with Haywire Blasters are good tank suppression, but you're best pushing them at max range and keeping them in cover where possible.

If you're suiciding them, Heat Lances will do better than HBs because you're dropping them in at point-blank, and are likely to pop any vehicle over neutralise.

And I'm in the Night Shields are really useful corner personally.
Otherwise it looks like a fair take-all-comers type list.

Gorechild wrote:I'd have to disagree, Dark lances on a Razorwing isn't a great idea. Razorwings are great anti-Infantry, if you replace the disintegrators with Dark Lances you're left with a problem: fire the plate at troops and waste the advantages of the lances, or fire the lances at vehicles and end up not firing the missiles (or using them ineffectually).

That does leave you with a massive lack of anti-tank though.... more Trueborn or Scourges could sort that out though.

I have to argue that with you, without lances if your opponent is meched up you can't shoot your missiles at anything anyway, and with dissies you're now unable to hit tanks effectively with it.

If you have a Razorwing with 2 Lances, 1 Splinter Cannon and 4 Monoscythes, then on any given turn you can send 2-4 missiles a turn into whatever squishy targets, as well as 6 poison rounds and 2 instant-deathing armour-save-ignoring lance shots -or- put 2 lances into a vehicle to pop it for your missiles and venoms.

It gives it a lot of versatility, allowing it to play Tank and Infantry Hunter, with the ability to drop anythign from a guardsman to a terminator to a land raider, as opposed to limiting it solely to MEQs.

I'd use the Razorwing fighters to first clear out infantry, then switch them to AT duty after that. I really like them, just because they do let me target both.

Ovion wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'd have to disagree, Dark lances on a Razorwing isn't a great idea. Razorwings are great anti-Infantry, if you replace the disintegrators with Dark Lances you're left with a problem: fire the plate at troops and waste the advantages of the lances, or fire the lances at vehicles and end up not firing the missiles (or using them ineffectually).

That does leave you with a massive lack of anti-tank though.... more Trueborn or Scourges could sort that out though.

I have to argue that with you, without lances if your opponent is meched up you can't shoot your missiles at anything anyway, and with dissies you're now unable to hit tanks effectively with it.

If you have a Razorwing with 2 Lances, 1 Splinter Cannon and 4 Monoscythes, then on any given turn you can send 2-4 missiles a turn into whatever squishy targets, as well as 6 poison rounds and 2 instant-deathing armour-save-ignoring lance shots -or- put 2 lances into a vehicle to pop it for your missiles and venoms.

It gives it a lot of versatility, allowing it to play Tank and Infantry Hunter, with the ability to drop anythign from a guardsman to a terminator to a land raider, as opposed to limiting it solely to MEQs.

The problem I find is that you can only guarantee the Razorwing will be alive for 1 turn. Due to the lack of any proper "flyer" rules in this edition coupled with the fact they have the huge flight stand means its near impossible for them to get cover saves on most boards and almost everyone is going to be able to get LOS on it. They really aren't very durable, so the only way you can make sure that they fire all their missiles is to set them off as soon as they get on the board.

Spending that first turn firing 2 Dark Lances at a transport is pointless if the razorwing never see's a second turn. Those 2 shots only have (just a tiny bit more than) a 1/5 chance of wrecking an AV12 vehicle. Would you take that risk and just hope that you'll not get wrecked in your opponents turn? I definitely wouldn't, especially with a 170+ point model.
I find its a lot more reliable just to use a load of missiles (plus 6 disintegrator shots and a splinter cannon) to hammer the tastiest squad that either started on foot or has been taken out of its transport by another unit.

Versatility is really helpful if you are likely to be around for several turns, but when you're not it just means you never get to effectively use all your firepower.

With three of them, though, I'm much more likely to wreck a vehicle and still have the ability to mess up the guys inside with Dark Lances. I suppose I'll just have to playtest and see which I prefer in game!

See, my Razorwing has only died before turn 3 once, and that was when the initiative got stolen and they hit it with something like 50 shots from some orc squad that downed it ( passed more than half the flickerfield saves too :( )

I've found it to be a good backing unit overall, and that people generally find my Talos, Grotesque Squads, Raiders and Venoms to be a prefered target as they seem to worry folk more.

Ovion wrote:See, my Razorwing has only died before turn 3 once, and that was when the initiative got stolen and they hit it with something like 50 shots from some orc squad that downed it ( passed more than half the flickerfield saves too :( )

Well either you're very lucky, I'm very unlucky or a bit of both

Sekai wrote:With three of them, though, I'm much more likely to wreck a vehicle and still have the ability to mess up the guys inside with Dark Lances. I suppose I'll just have to playtest and see which I prefer in game!

That's true, but then you're using 525 points worth of models to fire 6 Dark Lances. 2 Ravagers do that for 230 points and can hide a LOT more easily. It's fair enough if you want to inculed Razorwings, but IMO using them for your anti-tank is a big waste of points, that's just not what they're designed for.

6 Dark Lances, a crapton of Missiles, and other various weapon systems. 2 Ravagers can only do 6 dark lances, and not have the flexibilty. As I said, I'm not using Ravagers, but I'm still undecided on the loadout of my Razorwing.

True, but they are less than half the point cost. If you're doing a direct comparrison its fairer to compare 2 Ravagers 2 Dakka Venoms with 2 units of blaster warriors and 45 spare points.

Either way, if you don't want Ravagers then it's a bit of a moot point. All I can suggest it that you keep your Razorwings as anti-infantry and find some other way to get the anti tank in elsewhere. The only obvious idea is more Trueborn.

Ultimately you have a few choices on loadout.

1: TAC Razorwing - 165 to 175
Razorwing Jet Fighter
2 Dark Lances
4 Monoscythe Missiles
+ Splinter Cannon
+ Flickerfield
?+ Night Shields
Good all rounder, can take care of variety of vehicles and troops.

2: Anti Infantry 165 - 175
Razorwing Jet Fighter
2 Dissintegrators
4 Monoscythe Missiles
+ Splinter Cannon
+ Flickerfield
?+ Night Shields
Will make most infantry in front of it dissapear.

3: Anti Vehicle 175 - 185
Razorwing Jet Fighter
2 Dark Lances
4 Shatterfield Missiles
+ Flickerfield
?+ Night Shields
This ones a bit meh, but if you want to dedicate it to anti-tank, Str7 missiles and 2 lances is all you need.

4: Some insane upgraded missile shenanigans 170 - 195
Razorwing Jet Fighter
2 Dark Lances or Dissintegrators
Any Combination of 0-4 Monoscythe Missiles / 0-4 Necrotoxin Missiles / 0-4 Shatterfield Missiles
+ Splinter Cannon
+ Flickerfield
?+ Night Shields
This is probably mostly an 'improved' anti-infantry or TAC one, but it's a bit of fun, though pricey.

Ultimately it will depend on how you play, and what you prefer.

Personally I like a Take All Comers one, and when I get another 1 or 2 they'll be the same.

Also - I've magnetised my Razorwing so it can switch all it's missiles OR switch its splinter cannon for a dark lance and be used as a Ravager.

Um...What thirty points of upgrades did you drop on your Razorwings? They only really need flickers, maybe a night shield too...They should be 10 pts cheaper than they are in your list. Probably 20.

I would not get the splinter cannon. The missiles will be quite enough for lobbing into infantry. The other missile types are all point traps. Monoscythe is very nice itself.

You have 13 Darklight weapons in your list. This is unacceptable unless you play in an area where vehicles aren't as common as usual...

At 2000 pts, I run 20+ Darklight weapons and I still find myself lacking against some armies. Meched up IG? Meched up SM/BA/SW/GK? You need to pack in the AT with DE. We're good at slaying infantry. That's that. It's our strength. We just need to bring a way to open up the tin cans they like to hide inside.

Trust me. You need more AT capabilities. Find a way!

Since you're dead set on Razors, they need lances. Wyches would do well to have haywires. If you're keeping the scourges, I suggest heat lances on them. It's a start...

Trying this out:

150 - Duke Sliscus
125 - 2x Haemonculus with 2 Liquifiers, 1 Venom Blade

173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
173 - Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon

115 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom
115 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom
171 - Kabalite Warriors x9 with Raider, Night Shields, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks
190 - Wyches x9 with Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider
190 - Wyches x9 with Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider

155 - Razorwing with Dark Lances, Flickerfield
155 - Razorwing with Dark Lances, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager with Flickerfield

Increased Darklight weapons, trying out a Ravager, I think it should be fine.

Pretty interesting list. I'm interested to see how it goes!

Battle report sometime???

Will likely be testing this out on Vassal, if anyone has it and wants to come watch.

Worked pretty well. I held everything in deepstrike because I was playing against a Drop Pod army, and managed to do great damage, and pull off a tie (Because we ended early with neither of us on objectives.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
150 - Duke Sliscus
120 - 2x Haemonculus with 2 Liquifiers

173 - 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
163 - 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom
163 - 4x Kabalite Trueborn with 4 Blasters, Venom

125 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
125 - Kabalite Warriors x5 with Blaster, Venom with 2x Splintercannon
176 - Kabalite Warriors x9 with Raider, Night Shields, Flickerfield, Splinter Racks, Aethersails
190 - Wyches x9, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider with Flickerfield
190 - Wyches x9, Hekatrix with Agonizer, Raider with Flickerfield

155 - Razorwing with Dark Lances, Flickerfield
155 - Razorwing with Dark Lances, Flickerfield
115 - Ravager with Flickerfield

This was the list used.

Were the kill points even too or did you just call it a draw? (In an objectives game you count them if it's a draw.)

Sekai wrote:Worked pretty well. I held everything in deepstrike ...

You mean Reserve, right?