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My gaming club has regular tournaments and just random games at 500 pts its fun to have a quick 500 pt battle really uses strategy and makes you think how to use your limited resources highly recommended.

My list that I run is

Librarian 100pts

Tactical Squad 5 extra marines Melta gun Rhino Storm Bolter 220

Tactical Squad 5 extra marines ML Plasma gun 180

I usually run rhino up with a squad and combat squad my other squad have a ml in the back pounding targets and have the other have foot slogging on a B line up the gut with the rhino shooting for an objective or on the side in an annihilation mission.

My problem is that I have trouble with hordes (orks nids especially) so I was wondering how do I counter the hordes with my current list

I don't play SM, but I really enjoy small point games so I'll try my best to help out.

good luck is the best I can tell you. I've always felt bad for marine players in 500 point games simply because they have so much trouble bringing good units to the table since their basic troop is so expensive!

Anyway some tricks you have at your disposal...

- land speeder storm + cc scouts w/ a fist. First turn power fist assault against something is pretty tricky.
- 85 point dakka predators are especially effective against Orks and Nids.
- Don't take 10 man squads, way to expensive. [Unfortunately for you, Wolves and Angels are allowed special weapons on their 5 man squads but you can still take a combi on your Sarge.]
- Put those 5 Man squads in Razor Backs to get heavy weapon support


More generally, The trick to winning low point games is to pack as many scary things as possible in as many different force organization slots as possible. You generally don't need to worry about heavy vehicles, being able to smack down infantry and light tanks is good, things like assault cannons and auto cannons come to mind.

To me, 500 point games are what seperate good marine commanders from the slobbering mass of worse marine players. You don't get to use toys or gimmicks to hide behind. You fail or succeed by how you use the actual advantages of a marine army, as difficult as this may be.

To succeed at this points level, you're really going to have to be able to milk your 3+ save for all its worth, and be able to get the most out of your AP5 small arm. You're going to have to know when and where to use ATSKNF, and combat tactics.

More specifically for you, it would help if you rearranged your list just a little. For one, the rhino isn't necessary here, as you're not going to come across any AP3 or better large blasts at this points level (or really many AP3 or better weapons at all). Likewise, you're probably not going to need melta at this points level, given that you get krak grenades for free, and nobody is taking a land raider or monolith in 500 pts.

As for what to spend those points on, I can't say, but perhaps the librarian could actually take a psychic power (do they not get one for free or something?)

I'd run something like this, which is along the same lines as the OP.

Librarian - /100pts

Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, Combi-flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino, Storm Bolter/225pts
Tactical Squad (5) - Plazorback, Combi-plasma/175pts

Flamey, plasma-y, two heavy weapons, psychic hood and whatever two psychic powers you need, all with 16 3+ models in metal boxes.

at 500 w/ vanilla marines go with

1x Chaplain

2x scout squads, 1 w/ snipers and telion

2x thunderfire cannons

Ailaros wrote:To me, 500 point games are what separate good marine commanders from the slobbering mass of worse marine players. You don't get to use toys or gimmicks to hide behind. You fail or succeed by how you use the actual advantages of a marine army, as difficult as this may be.

This is an interesting point. If you mean taking the list above and trying to sneak a victory then it is equivalent of not using all your points for a tournament list, it is certainly possible to beat people but it really isn't in your favour.
Else do you mean writing a funny list that abuses the codex? Which is also a real skill but this means fighting virtually on a level playing field.

What I'm saying is that when most people look at their marine codex they see dakka dreads and terminators and devastators and the like and think that those are the only worthwhile units in their entire codex. No army is able to stand long if it is made or broken solely on its support units. This is probably why a lot of marine armies don't fare so well.

A 500 point game for any army forces you to really get to know your core units, which are what are ultimately still responsible for your victories at higher points levels once you can start adding in support units. I think codex marine players, perhaps worse than other armies, tend to pretend like their core units aren't there, and just load up on toys, which is why marine players are likely to have a harder time at 500 points (which is why they should play at that points level more often).

If you're looking at your army and all you see are tac squads, and you think that tac squads are worthless and therefore your army is worthless, you've either got to play a different army, or spend some more time at low points games and learn the fundamentals.

Allaros has the truth of it, but it doesn't mean you have no tricks at your disposal.

Marines don't get a lot of tricks at 500 points - but if you feel like being gimmicky you could run a Bike List w/ Captain on bike. Thunderfire Cannons are an amazing bargain, because they come with a techmarine.

Vindicators are competitive at any point costs, and 1 good shot with it can win you the game.

Scouts with Camo-cloaks and sniper rifles are hard to shift with shooting, but shotguns in a Storm are pretty fantastic too.

Sternguard are amazing units even without upgrades - but at this point level 175 points for 5 guys with 3 combi-plas coming out of a drop pod will remove a unit as a threat.

The librarian and the MoF are both great deals. The MoF can bolster defenses for your scouts, and has built in power fists. The Librarian can be kitted out for your meta without spending extra points.

Here is a list I have been playing with:
HQ
Librarian 100

Troops
Tac, Razor Las/plas 165
Scouts 75

Fast Attack
LSS, HF 60

Heavy Support
TFC 100

Thats 500 on the spot.

My problem is that I have trouble with hordes (orks nids especially) so I was wondering how do I counter the hordes with my current list

Sad to say, that this points level with vanilla is more about playing the board than the army. By that, I mean, cover is going to be something you adhere to tighter than a PDF conscript who just watched his 500 buddies get introduced to a chaos marine. It gives you a save against the inevitable random AP3- pieplate or that chimera with 3 plasmagunners inside that just rolled into rapid fire range, it will force that group of I7 genestealers to go at I1 because they had to take a difficult terrain test when they charged you. A surprising amount of orks do not have grenades, so this will work on them too.

Can you arrange deployment so that you are only taking on pieces of his at a time? Marines shine if they can manage this.

You will have to learn which units you should steal the charge from (Ork boyz go here.) and which you should always sit in cover and shoot at (Genestealers go here) unless you also bought the "Very Clever Plan" upgrade (TM) ..and finally, which you need to speedbump and sacrifice a combat squad to so you can dump more shots in.

Listwise, you have about as good as one can expect from vanilla with tacticals. Make sure avenger is one of your powers if you find yourself getting up close with people. I absolutely do not agree that you should remove your meltagun (My experience is that SOMEONE is going to be a <CENSORED> and bring a raider counting on the idea that you WON'T bring something that touches AV14 in the bad place, after all, it's a 500 point game! Honestly, I usually have them on both tactical squads. Extra shot and range from plasma rarely comes into play...but Gets Hot! does.) Likewise, I would keep the rhino. The mobility, ability to manipulate cover/movement/line of sight, and the "Extra life" in the face of nastiness while moving up on an objective through open terrain is well worth that 35 points, even at 500.

Ailaros is correct. This is something that will separate the good vanilla commanders from the meh. Unlike the newer books, your shinies and toys are not in the "Troop" section. If you can consistently do well here, you definitely qualify as one of the better marine players.

...You are also a glutton for punishment. You may also wish to consider playing CC Firewarrior Tau.

To help deal with the hordes you could use The Avatar psychic power to thin the mass of Orks and Nids. You could also consider swapping rhino and meltaguns for a cheapish whirlwind. That pie plate could destroy loads of models in a horde army each turn and even ones in cover. You would have to make the rest of your force incredibly cheap to fit it in though.

Certain armies have an advantage at such a low point cost restriction. IG can still field tanks and dedicated transports. Being able to make the most of the game board is what is going to help the most.

SOFDC wrote:A surprising amount of orks do not have grenades, so this will work on them too.
..and finally, which you need to speedbump and sacrifice a combat squad to so you can dump more shots in.

Orks are I3 at best, so charging into cover with them does little to their output. Space Marines don't have speedbump units, particularly at this level.

Your trouble with hordes can be easily rectified with Avenger on your Librarian, replacing your Plasmagun with a Flamer, and probably taking a Combi-Flamer on that squad's Sergeant.

I have a SM list 500 pts that I have designed specifically to beat my Orks at 500 points. I have had several friends play my ork list and I have tried to beat them. The best I can do with either side is tie them. So I at least know that this list is goo against my ork list. Which does really well at 500 for me.


its something like this(from memory)

1 SM captain, Hellfire rounds(deadly ork killer),artificer armor, power sword, digital weapons(i think)

1 5 man tac squad Sgt w power fist

1 Stock 5 man tac squad. (attached to captain)

Iron Clad dreadnought w heavy flamer.

The hellfire rounds and heavy flamer are very bad for orks. basically charge the ironclad full speed ahead. Very tough for Orks wo Kans/dreads to kill an iron clad dreadnought at 500 points unless they are in CC w it, make sure it has smoke grenades as well. Just keep shooting hellfire rounds and use that flamer. Run your SM up behind the dread for cover. I usually shadow the front group w the captain's group. just stay about 13-15 inches away from the orks with the tac squads at all time and try to kite them a bit. Let the hellfires and bolters and flamer thing them down first-be patient. Don't worry too much about lootas, they are actuallypretty bad at killing marines and can only glance the ironclad. Since lootas are near worthless vs the dread, I hope he brought some rokkits at BS2-he has a very low chance.

I am by no means a good SM list builder, and this is extreme list tailoring, but I have yet to beat this setup with my own orks.

Thunderfire cannons are hystarical at 500 points. Drop two down in opposite corners and watch your opponant squirm. Ironclads are also pretty sexy at this point level.