Switch Theme:

No more rerolls for non-CORE units  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Breton wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The current kit does support bolt pistols + chainswords (though it doesn't include enough of either for the full squad). I still think an actual Chosen kit would be excellent. Long arms + melee weapons would be different from what loyalists have. We don't want csm to just be "spiky loyalists" now do we?


At a certain level they're all comparable. Storm Guardians, BP/CS CSM, Assault Intercessors, Grey Hunters, Sword Brothers, Choppa Boys, etc. and they're going to make kits for the meta that sells. So far they've worked pretty hard at keeping (rifle type) + pistol + CCW off of troops. Bolter + CS is just a spiky shoota boy at that basic level.


Yes, but we don't need a new kit when the one we already have supports the loadout you're talking about. We do, however, need a kit for Chosen, as one doesn't currently exist.

Chosen, BTW, aren't troops. Though they should be, for the Legions, but that's another conversation....


Doesn’t include enough of either...

It also only contains eight bolters for ten Chaos Space Marines, so no all bolter squad either. If you would like to discuss gw's bizarre sprue decisions, especially for the new csm kits (don't get me started on the new havocs and terminators) then that might be a good idea for another thread. However, I see no reason to create what would be a redundant kit when csm have ancient kits for things like bezerkers and units with no kits at all such as Chosen.

Not to mention allocating resources to making such a redundant kit for an already fairly well supported faction while some Xenos factions have kits that have existed since grunge was all the rage.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The current kit does support bolt pistols + chainswords (though it doesn't include enough of either for the full squad). I still think an actual Chosen kit would be excellent. Long arms + melee weapons would be different from what loyalists have. We don't want csm to just be "spiky loyalists" now do we?


Currently, I make my Alpha Legion Chosen from Havoc bodies (just cut/file down the toe claws), Mark 3 backpacks, and the Legion Upgrade helmets with some extra bits & gubbins like pouches and the like. Sadly they've changed the rules for Astartes chainswords, but I'm pretty sure my 'nasty knives' that the Chosen have will 'count as' well enough for most sane players.

However, I do wish there was a kit for Chosen- maybe a 5-man box full of beefy baroque badasses with lots of options like the Deathwatch Veteran kits.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The current kit does support bolt pistols + chainswords (though it doesn't include enough of either for the full squad). I still think an actual Chosen kit would be excellent. Long arms + melee weapons would be different from what loyalists have. We don't want csm to just be "spiky loyalists" now do we?


Currently, I make my Alpha Legion Chosen from Havoc bodies (just cut/file down the toe claws), Mark 3 backpacks, and the Legion Upgrade helmets with some extra bits & gubbins like pouches and the like. Sadly they've changed the rules for Astartes chainswords, but I'm pretty sure my 'nasty knives' that the Chosen have will 'count as' well enough for most sane players.

However, I do wish there was a kit for Chosen- maybe a 5-man box full of beefy baroque badasses with lots of options like the Deathwatch Veteran kits.

yes, that would fit in nicely alongside a new possessed kit, maybe even dare i say...a dual kit.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The current kit does support bolt pistols + chainswords (though it doesn't include enough of either for the full squad). I still think an actual Chosen kit would be excellent. Long arms + melee weapons would be different from what loyalists have. We don't want csm to just be "spiky loyalists" now do we?


Currently, I make my Alpha Legion Chosen from Havoc bodies (just cut/file down the toe claws), Mark 3 backpacks, and the Legion Upgrade helmets with some extra bits & gubbins like pouches and the like. Sadly they've changed the rules for Astartes chainswords, but I'm pretty sure my 'nasty knives' that the Chosen have will 'count as' well enough for most sane players.

However, I do wish there was a kit for Chosen- maybe a 5-man box full of beefy baroque badasses with lots of options like the Deathwatch Veteran kits.

Sounds good. I use the current csm kit mixed with Marks III and IV bits with combi-weapons from various sources and Terror Squad heads.

Agreed a Chosen kit with lots of options like Deathwatch Veterans would be killer, preferably in Heresy pattern armour marks and not looking like renegades that just got accepted into the Black Legion last week. There are other Legions gw.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Agreed a Chosen kit with lots of options like Deathwatch Veterans would be killer, preferably in Heresy pattern armour marks and not looking like renegades that just got accepted into the Black Legion last week. There are better Legions gw.



FTFY my friend.

Hydra Dominatus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/20 20:38:11


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Agreed a Chosen kit with lots of options like Deathwatch Veterans would be killer, preferably in Heresy pattern armour marks and not looking like renegades that just got accepted into the Black Legion last week. There are better Legions gw.



FTFY my friend.

Hydra Dominatus.

Thanks. Though you spelled Ave Dominus Nox wrong.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






You both spelled WAAAGH! wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/20 22:23:16


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Thanks. Though you spelled Ave Dominus Nox wrong.


Nah, we don't like that one. It doesn't roll off the tongue. We should know, we're in your ranks too.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Thanks. Though you spelled Ave Dominus Nox wrong.


Nah, we don't like that one. It doesn't roll off the tongue. We should know, we're in your ranks too.

Yes, we know. We've found them. And they no longer have tongues for words to roll off of. So next come the eyes, then the hands, then the feet.....
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Hydra Dominatus.


The first rule of Hydra Club is don’t talk about Hydra Club.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is, at least from a design POV, that's not entirely what GW wants. Abaddon standing back behind the battlefield and watching his people shoot isn't quite what they want, they want him moving forward with your troops etc

Yeah, GW is projecting pretty clearly right now, they want gunlines gone and mid-range combat to be the norm.

A better way to state my concern is: this change causes armies to lose certain playstyles.

Maybe someone wants to correct me, but I don't see new playstyles emerging from this change.

Probably a little more sensitive about this because I play Chaos and our armies are especially dependent on buffs to make sub-par units decent.

   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 techsoldaten wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is, at least from a design POV, that's not entirely what GW wants. Abaddon standing back behind the battlefield and watching his people shoot isn't quite what they want, they want him moving forward with your troops etc

Yeah, GW is projecting pretty clearly right now, they want gunlines gone and mid-range combat to be the norm.

A better way to state my concern is: this change causes armies to lose certain playstyles.

Maybe someone wants to correct me, but I don't see new playstyles emerging from this change.

Probably a little more sensitive about this because I play Chaos and our armies are especially dependent on buffs to make sub-par units decent.


New play styles will definitely emerge. Well new compared to last edition. They will mostly have been tried in previous ones.

Leveling up in Crusade and the new pre-placed matched play objective missions alone pretty much guarantee it. I’m worried not all armies will have a path to those play styles. CSM probably come out ok. Tau are probably in a world of hurt.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 techsoldaten wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is, at least from a design POV, that's not entirely what GW wants. Abaddon standing back behind the battlefield and watching his people shoot isn't quite what they want, they want him moving forward with your troops etc

Yeah, GW is projecting pretty clearly right now, they want gunlines gone and mid-range combat to be the norm.

A better way to state my concern is: this change causes armies to lose certain playstyles.

Maybe someone wants to correct me, but I don't see new playstyles emerging from this change.

Probably a little more sensitive about this because I play Chaos and our armies are especially dependent on buffs to make sub-par units decent.

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll get rid of that design paradigm for csm in our new codex and give our units rules that let them work without stacking buffs to the moon on them. Remember when loyalists needed their leaders for that extra boost in leadership for stuff like morale checks and target priority but we didn't because almost everything in our codex was leadership 9 or 10? I always liked that difference, made our guys feel like real veterans that didn't need someone shouting in their ears all the time to know what to do.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Thanks. Though you spelled Ave Dominus Nox wrong.


Nah, we don't like that one. It doesn't roll off the tongue. We should know, we're in your ranks too.

Yes, we know. We've found them. And they no longer have tongues for words to roll off of. So next come the eyes, then the hands, then the feet.....


But not the ears.

"Your ears you keep, so that every shriek of every child shall be yours to cherish—every babe that weeps in fear at your approach, every woman that cries 'Dear God, what is that thing?' will reverberate forever with your perfect ears.”

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Breton wrote:New play styles will definitely emerge. Well new compared to last edition. They will mostly have been tried in previous ones.

Leveling up in Crusade and the new pre-placed matched play objective missions alone pretty much guarantee it. I’m worried not all armies will have a path to those play styles. CSM probably come out ok. Tau are probably in a world of hurt.

Sure, and I recognize this is a first step. The meta will adapt.

One possible path is that all lists, even non-Chaos ones, become mid-range focused. There's some units (like shooty Daemon Engines) I wouldn't want to take without reroll auras, their BS is just so bad.

The thing about auras, they were non-specific. Everything in range gets the benefit, unlike psychic powers which are mostly limited to a specific unit. Core unit restrictions take the crutch away from the ones that needed them most.

Gadzilla666 wrote:Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll get rid of that design paradigm for csm in our new codex and give our units rules that let them work without stacking buffs to the moon on them. Remember when loyalists needed their leaders for that extra boost in leadership for stuff like morale checks and target priority but we didn't because almost everything in our codex was leadership 9 or 10? I always liked that difference, made our guys feel like real veterans that didn't need someone shouting in their ears all the time to know what to do.

Will never happen. GW doesn't buff older units unless they are getting new models. 2W on PA Marines is the exception that proves the rule.

Variety of playstyles for each faction is good for the game. When I wasn't running gunlines, it was Bloodletter Bombs, Daemon Primarch lists, KAC drops, and specialist detachments. All of these have been invalidated / heavily nerfed in 9th.

While I like to believe it's possible GW could someday break this mould and "make every unit useful," the reality is value is relative to the latest Codex / FAQ / CA. As long as mechanics keep changing, unit value is a moving target.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I dunno about Gunlines being "Gone". My midrange Custodes got pretty easily shot off the board turn 2 twice last week by the new Gunline Primaris.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Will never happen. GW doesn't buff older units unless they are getting new models. 2W on PA Marines is the exception that proves the rule.

That's gibberish. Even if you can swallow the particular expression, that 'exception' is (or will be) widespread, buffing units in several books (Marines and all supplements, chaos marines, death guard, thousand sons).

You're also completely overlooking the weapons buff, which will heavily buff a huge swath of old models across half the factions (general Imperium, Space Marines, Chaos and even some Xenos- even if its only flamers and powerswords for the latter).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/21 18:40:51


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 techsoldaten wrote:

Will never happen. GW doesn't buff older units unless they are getting new models. 2W on PA Marines is the exception that proves the rule.


Centurions?
TFCs?
Drop Pods?
Grav?
Astartes Chainswords?
Power Weapons?
Heavy Bolters?

Lot of exceptions...

   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Will never happen. GW doesn't buff older units unless they are getting new models. 2W on PA Marines is the exception that proves the rule.


Centurions?
TFCs?
Drop Pods?
Grav?
Astartes Chainswords?
Power Weapons?
Heavy Bolters?

Lot of exceptions...

Yes, I think it may be possible gw has finally figured out that old unit and weapon stat lines don't work very well with the new rules, and are changing them. I'm hoping this will also mean some fundamental changes for how some factions work as well. Guess we'll just have to "wait and see"....
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess we'll just have to "wait and see"....


Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 19:10:31


   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Thanks. Though you spelled Ave Dominus Nox wrong.


Nah, we don't like that one. It doesn't roll off the tongue. We should know, we're in your ranks too.

Yes, we know. We've found them. And they no longer have tongues for words to roll off of. So next come the eyes, then the hands, then the feet.....


But not the ears.

"Your ears you keep, so that every shriek of every child shall be yours to cherish—every babe that weeps in fear at your approach, every woman that cries 'Dear God, what is that thing?' will reverberate forever with your perfect ears.”

I see what you did there, and it's INCONCEIVABLE! (Sorry, had to say it).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Thanks. Though you spelled Ave Dominus Nox wrong.


Nah, we don't like that one. It doesn't roll off the tongue. We should know, we're in your ranks too.

Yes, we know. We've found them. And they no longer have tongues for words to roll off of. So next come the eyes, then the hands, then the feet.....


But not the ears.

"Your ears you keep, so that every shriek of every child shall be yours to cherish—every babe that weeps in fear at your approach, every woman that cries 'Dear God, what is that thing?' will reverberate forever with your perfect ears.”

I see what you did there, and it's INCONCEIVABLE! (Sorry, had to say it).


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Do I need to get out the Iocaine powder???
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Will never happen. GW doesn't buff older units unless they are getting new models. 2W on PA Marines is the exception that proves the rule.


Centurions?
TFCs?
Drop Pods?
Grav?
Astartes Chainswords?
Power Weapons?
Heavy Bolters?

Lot of exceptions...

Sure, you can say that. GW is overhauling PA troops across the board, it's more than adding 2W.

Let's make sure we're not missing the point. Traditionally, GW does not buff legacy units.

Thinking about CSM, Possessed, Chosen, Noise Marines, Rubrics, Plague Marines, Terminators from 5th edition until 8th, these were not the units you built your competitive lists around. They were overcosted (Rubrics especially,) rules made them awkward (salvo on sonic weapons,) and models that had been released more recently had more favorable rules (6th edition Triple Heldrake / Cultist spam lists dominated for a while.) The ones that did become useful - Thousand Sons, Plague Marines - only really did so once they go their own Codexes.

You can say something similar about most armies.

We're going to see where the current overhaul lands, how points are assigned and whether or not legacy units actually become useful in the current meta. I'm looking forward to playing with 2W CSM but not taking anything for granted. There's always been a thumb on the scale when it comes to older units and I haven't seen much to make me think otherwise.


   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 techsoldaten wrote:

Sure, you can say that. GW is overhauling PA troops across the board, it's more than adding 2W.

Let's make sure we're not missing the point. Traditionally, GW does not buff legacy units.

Thinking about CSM, Possessed, Chosen, Noise Marines, Rubrics, Plague Marines, Terminators from 5th edition until 8th,
Termies were bad in 3rd Edition until... some point that may yet be in the future. If you thought they were bad in 5th, 3rd would blow your mind.

these were not the units you built your competitive lists around. They were overcosted (Rubrics especially,) rules made them awkward (salvo on sonic weapons,) and models that had been released more recently had more favorable rules (6th edition Triple Heldrake / Cultist spam lists dominated for a while.) The ones that did become useful - Thousand Sons, Plague Marines - only really did so once they go their own Codexes.

You can say something similar about most armies.

We're going to see where the current overhaul lands, how points are assigned and whether or not legacy units actually become useful in the current meta. I'm looking forward to playing with 2W CSM but not taking anything for granted. There's always been a thumb on the scale when it comes to older units and I haven't seen much to make me think otherwise.

We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Hecaton wrote:
Breton wrote:
We're still a long ways away from getting a well tuned edition. They revamped everything in 8th. It's going to take another pass or two of Codex to iron it all out as they figure out what they broke. And that's before 9th added more balls to juggle like Crusade. Crusade could develop into a league system, as well as a narrative/summer campaign system.


Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


Yeah, in fact, it seems like they pointed a bunch of stuff based on codex books that just...aren't coming out for ages.

10pt powerfists = 10pt chainfists now makes sense for marines, but they've left (for example) the GSC and Ork heavy melee weapon costs equal and are planning to just...leave them broken until the codex!

Neat!

Wonder how much more of THAT there is kicking around in the game? Massively overcosted eldar infantry? Maybe they're getting statlines that will make that make sense, you know, eventually. I'm sure waiting until nearly the next time around GW is supposed to rebalance point costs for them to get stats that are anywhere near what they bring to the table will be fine.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 techsoldaten wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

Will never happen. GW doesn't buff older units unless they are getting new models. 2W on PA Marines is the exception that proves the rule.


Centurions?
TFCs?
Drop Pods?
Grav?
Astartes Chainswords?
Power Weapons?
Heavy Bolters?

Lot of exceptions...

Sure, you can say that. GW is overhauling PA troops across the board, it's more than adding 2W.

Let's make sure we're not missing the point. Traditionally, GW does not buff legacy units.

Thinking about CSM, Possessed, Chosen, Noise Marines, Rubrics, Plague Marines, Terminators from 5th edition until 8th, these were not the units you built your competitive lists around. They were overcosted (Rubrics especially,) rules made them awkward (salvo on sonic weapons,) and models that had been released more recently had more favorable rules (6th edition Triple Heldrake / Cultist spam lists dominated for a while.) The ones that did become useful - Thousand Sons, Plague Marines - only really did so once they go their own Codexes.

You can say something similar about most armies.

We're going to see where the current overhaul lands, how points are assigned and whether or not legacy units actually become useful in the current meta. I'm looking forward to playing with 2W CSM but not taking anything for granted. There's always been a thumb on the scale when it comes to older units and I haven't seen much to make me think otherwise.



You're just moving goal posts.

AM is getting the bolters/melta/etc, Banshees are getting the power swords. A number of older Necron kits are seeing weapon buffs.

Centurions were buffed a long time ago as were Possessed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:

Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


You seem to think there's limitless time and no schedules to adhere to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 17:45:57


   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:

Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


You seem to think there's limitless time and no schedules to adhere to.


I feel the need to note that GW's shooting themselves in the foot in terms of time/schedules. Infinity has had four editions in 15 years. Warmachine has had three in 17 years. 40k has gone through six over the same span.

(I know, I know, "GW makes more money than CB/PP and therefore the winning strategy must be to rewrite the rules more often!")

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:

Would have been nice if they put that tuning in there ahead of time. I don't know why you insist on rewarding GW for their poor balancing.


You seem to think there's limitless time and no schedules to adhere to.


I feel the need to note that GW's shooting themselves in the foot in terms of time/schedules. Infinity has had four editions in 15 years. Warmachine has had three in 17 years. 40k has gone through six over the same span.

(I know, I know, "GW makes more money than CB/PP and therefore the winning strategy must be to rewrite the rules more often!")


Yeah we just got the last PA books and were in a middle of a pandemic when 9th dropped. They coulda given us a little more time to play with what just came out and used that time to gather data and write tighter rules

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You never know when that leman russ will punch you back

 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: