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So after seeing the "nerfs" to DPs through the updated FAQ, I was wondering what everyone was doing in the way of HQs for CSM armies. I have heard that some people are going with Fabious Bile, and pumping up marines, but I don't know if they were just pulling my leg. Are DPs still viable without LoS and Warptime? Have people started to switch over to named HQ units? Was just wondering if you switched, and why you switched.

Thanks!

DP are still MCs that can fly.

Either run them plain or with MoN and they're still good.

If I was going to run them now, I would take Kharn, a cheap Lord, or a Lash Sorcerer.

Kharn-just a better Lord basically. Lots of killing potential if kept away from fists.

Lord- cheap, easy, hides in a unit.

Sorcerer- still useful, just 17% less effective and no more drive byes.

Daemon Princes aren't necessarily bad for their points, it's just that too many heavily spammed things kill them easily. Tyranids high poison proliferation, Long Fangs, Venoms, Lances, Psyfleman...the list goes on.

tyro_neophyte wrote: Are DPs still viable without LoS and Warptime?

Yes.

Lash still exists on a BS 5 model and warptime still makes the model about as good as a MoK DP except with the ability to take it on the benefit of other marks.

I'm still waiting for the tears of all the crybabies to wash away the nonsense they've been pushing all these years...

tyro_neophyte wrote:Have people started to switch over to named HQ units? Was just wondering if you switched, and why you switched.

I've been on-again-off-again with demon princes. The main problem is that they're monstrous creatures. The reason to take non-DPs is because you get to hide them in squads. As for which ones, the only ones that have really caught my interest are sorcerers with either wings or terminator armor (depending on how I would run them), and some of the special characters, especially kharn.

Never been much of a fan of lords, though. They really don't seem to add all that much to whatever army I'm making. More or less it's just more power weapon attacks of some sort in an army already good at close combat. At least kharn gets an at-initiative eviscerator...

Ailaros wrote:

tyro_neophyte wrote: Are DPs still viable without LoS and Warptime?

Yes.

Lash still exists on a BS 5 model and warptime still makes the model about as good as a MoK DP except with the ability to take it on the benefit of other marks.

I'm still waiting for the tears of all the crybabies to wash away the nonsense they've been pushing all these years...

You keep saying that Warptime has been 'balanced' now, and honestly. . . I just don't see it. I really don't. MoK is now far, far cheaper, for basically the same effect. The only benefit Warptime offers is that. . . you have the option to pay MORE points to get another benefit. Hurray?

Back on-topic: Yes, Daemon Princes are still good. They're no longer the no-brainer choice they used to be.

Of course, on the rare occasions when I play CSM I usually run a MoK Lord with a Bloodfeeder, so I may not be the ideal person to ask about playing CSM competitively. . .

IF I were to pick up my CSM again, I'd probably run the exact same list as before. HQ was double Lash Sorcerors. You need to double up on them anyway because everybody and their fething mother has psychic defense nowadays.

I've BEEN running chaos lords with jump packs/wings and demon weapons well before this "nerf"

I enjoy having the ability to get a massive amount of attacks, the nurgle and khorne demon weapons are my favorites overall.

Beyond those, I tend to run typhus and on occasion, fabius.

juraigamer wrote:I've BEEN running chaos lords with jump packs/wings and demon weapons well before this "nerf"

I enjoy having the ability to get a massive amount of attacks, the nurgle and khorne demon weapons are my favorites overall.

Beyond those, I tend to run typhus and on occasion, fabius.

Are slaanesh DW any good? They do seem pretty nasty, with the instakill.

Slaanesh DW's are decent, the instant death works well if you fight a lot of multi-wound at your local shop.

The reason I saw the khorne and nurgle ones are better is as follows:

Khorne can get an absurd number of attacks, that alone is enough reason.

Nurgle can re-roll to wound against toughness 4 targets, since the demon weapon is poisoned, and can always wound any target on a 4+ regardless of their toughness.

Instant death from slaanesh is excellent, provided you don't try to go after toughness higher than 5.

At int 6, slaanesh DW's are basically IC snipers and multi-wound killers. Beyond that, they are just power weapons with tons of attacks.

On that same note, tzneetch DW's have a shooting attack that's ap3, and then can do the same as all other demon weapons in CC, getting more attacks. In the cover heavy game currently, those ap 3 shots don't do much, but slap wings and/or a jump pack on the lord and you can get the hurt on your foes more reliably.

Hmmm, a lot of interesting ideas here.

It always does seem pretty universal that everyone steers clear of the Named HQ units, like Abbadon and Blackheart. Are there really no uses for these HQ units?

I can see why sorcerers with LoS would be a possible substitute for DPs with the same.

Kharne, every single game. I love kharn.

Aside from that, Nurgle Daemon Princes with wings, although they got a little nerfed with the warptime FAQ.

Abbadon is decent, though damn expensive for a named HQ. Kharn is excellent, and cheap. Typhus is excellent as well, though not as cheap.

Every other named HQ is reasonably lackluster, and fabius requires you to basically build your army around him, rather than just tossing him in.

BeRzErKeR wrote:you have the option to pay MORE points to get another benefit. Hurray?

Exactly, hooray.

You have the option to spend 10 points to boost your hitting power, or to spend a few more points to boost your hitting power by about the same amount and also to be able to take a second mark. A DP with the hitting power of khorne combined with the toughness of nurgle is still a good unit, and even if it's expensive, a DP with the hitting power of khorne and the 4++ and optional extra psychic power of tzeentch is nothing to be laughed at.

Warptime is still good, but no longer comically overpowered like some people were incorrectly playing it before.

Plus, we're still talking about a sorcerer who comes with all the benefits of being a demon prince for basically no cost increase.

juraigamer wrote:Abbadon is decent

I've never quite figured out abbadon. He seems to be REALLY expensive for a unit that doesn't really bring much more than an at-initiative eviscerator in terminator armor. I mean, Kharn gets everything except the terminator armor for much cheaper (and with immunity to psychic powers, if with a few more drawbacks).

Slaanesh Daemon Weapon is great against GK Paladins, Nid MCs, and Ork Nobs! I personally plan on Keeping with Kharn and maybe going back to my Khorne Lord with Daemon Weapon on Juggernaut. Call me all the names you want but the Jugger is awesome in a unit of 1KSons on foot (at least they are not Noise Marines).

I don't play CSM, but I know a lot of people who do. The current unanimous favourite amongst them is the Tzeentch Daemon Prince(T5 W4 with 3+ and 4++). Fabius Bile also works very well for them, as do Slaaneshi Chaos Lords(with Daemon Weapon). This is how it's prettymuch always been around here, the FAQ's haven't changed a thing.

Ailaros wrote:
Warptime is still good, but no longer comically overpowered like some people were incorrectly playing it before.

This is where we differ, I suppose. I never thought Warptime was comically overpowered, whether playing as CSM or against them as Orks. Daemon Princes are big targets, not terrifically tough, and tend to suffer from mobility issues, cover issues, or both; I've often had trouble keeping them alive, and rarely had trouble killing them. I really don't think they needed a nerf.

Ailaros wrote:You have the option to spend 10 points to boost your hitting power, or to spend a few more points to boost your hitting power by about the same amount and also to be able to take a second mark. A DP with the hitting power of khorne combined with the toughness of nurgle is still a good unit, and even if it's expensive, a DP with the hitting power of khorne and the 4++ and optional extra psychic power of tzeentch is nothing to be laughed at.

You're ignoring the fact that Warptime is a psychic power, which means bad-stuff happens 11% of the time, and can be nullified by half the armies in the game. You're also downplaying the fact that Warptime costs two and a half times more than Mark of Khorne. Warptime is blighting expensive; even with how it used to work it wasn't an auto-include. It made a Prince go from 2.7 MEQ kills to 4.2. Is that worth a 20% increase in price over a naked Prince?

The DP has been basically the only CSM HQ for the last, what, 5 years?


Uhg.

Abbadon is basically a guy in termi armor, who's immune to instant death, who has a powerfist that strikes at his int and gains 2-6 extra attacks, or doesn't attack at all, and can re-roll to wound. He's also bike toughness.

That's about it.