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What do all of you think is a good size for Grotesques (led by a Haemonculus), either in a Raider or walking out of a Webway Portal? At what size is it just too much tied up in one unit, and at what size is it just not enough to do the job?
Assume a mostly Haemonculus-creature list: 3-4 squads of Wracks in Raiders, a couple of Talos walking out of a pair of Portals, and then some Trueborn or Scourges, perhaps a Ravager, for anti-armour, along with, ideally, two squads of Grotesques.

I would say 12 grotesques in all. So, if you're coming out of a webway portal, 2 squads of 6 (this is how I run mine), and raider, 3 squads of 4. Definitely with all the upgrades, so they are extremely durable, and treat pretty anything up S9 as small arms fire. The reason you don't want huge squads is because of S10, as soon as something like manticores come along that squad is going to disappear, so you want slightly smaller squads and more of them, less points are wasted if they suddenly die and they can't go after all the squads at once.

But you don't want the squads too small, despite their awesome strength and lots of attacks, you're relying on your opponent failing armour saves to kill them, so more attacks will make it easier for you, with the squads in raiders you will probably want to gang 2 squads up on a tough unit

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If you are set on taking them though it really depends on your list. If you're going fully mech then 3 or 4 in a raider can cause a bit of trouble to transports. If you're going for a WWP and you really want a coven themed army then the more the merrier

However, if you are going for a fluffy coven list, I'd say that Grotesques would still be your last choice of the fluffy units (Wracks, Haemy's Talos, Scourges, Cronos, Grotesques) if you want to be in any way competitive.

I beg to differ, they are incredibly resilient, as I said, they treat anything short of a manticore as small arms fire, they don't care about melta guns, they don't care about lascannons, and 15 long fangs with missile launchers, they'll shrug off.

With liquifiers they can wipe out terminators, and with S6(or 7 if you have Urien) they can destroy vehicles very handily and can take out close combat orientated units quite nicely, and with their durability don't care about things like powerfists. Facing a guardsmen blob? They're not even going to get hurt.

Taking wracks over grotesques? That is a choice of style, rather than competitiveness, since again the grotesques are hugely move survivable and are just as good if not better at taking out infantry and monstrous creatures, and can kill tanks

Lets put it this way... I ran across a DE guy in a tourney using my BA. He ran a WWP style list, and he had 6 grotesques w/ a pimped out archon.

They come on the board, moving from the portal toward my table edge. Mephiston comes on the table in a stormraven. I disembark, pop my powers, charge on in.

I subsequently insta-kill all the grotesques on the charge. He swings back and fails to damage me. I then run down his archon.

Grotesques are an OK unit, but honestly with Grey Knights running amok, SW has str 10 TWC, BA have str 10 libbys/meph, theres really a lot of stuff that can take care of them quickly.

If you're going WWP, I'd rather take some beast packs or something. They have a better assault range and do not need a baby sitter

If you really want them though I'd say 3-4 is ideal. One Aberration with something, one liquifier, and one to two naked guys. A little bit of wound moving around

They come on the board, moving from the portal toward my table edge. Mephiston comes on the table in a stormraven. I disembark, pop my powers, charge on in.

I subsequently insta-kill all the grotesques on the charge. He swings back and fails to damage me. I then run down his archon.

Yes because their supposed to be taking on the mini MC with a force weapon... Though you are pretty much correct about the Gray Knights and their force weapons everywhere.

I'd say only use them with Urien myself, for the boost to their strength they could actually attempt hurting AV12

lord_bobbington wrote: With liquifiers they can wipe out terminators, and with S6(or 7 if you have Urien) they can destroy vehicles very handily and can take out close combat orientated units quite nicely, and with their durability don't care about things like powerfists. Facing a guardsmen blob? They're not even going to get hurt.

If you're considering taking an extremely over priced special character to make a mediocre, expensive unit into one that is simply "ok" then competitiveness is going completely out of the window. You're also assuming that your highly tuned and expensive unit is being put up against very basic, naked units. If those Terminators have storm shields, odd's are that a liquifier will do very little. That unit of IG could easily be packing several melta's, a fist and an priest, with 2 dozen ablative wounds, that would hurt.

lord_bobbington wrote:Taking wracks over grotesques? That is a choice of style, rather than competitiveness, since again the grotesques are hugely move survivable and are just as good if not better at taking out infantry and monstrous creatures, and can kill tanks

They are also infinitely more expensive. 3 Wracks in a Venom is 90 points, and gives you a scoring vehicle that pumps out 12 shots a turn AND can move 12". 90 points of Grotesque gets you a tiny unit that wont be able to do what you want it to do because you cant afford the HQ to baby sit them.

kenshin620 wrote:If you're going WWP, I'd rather take some beast packs or something. They have a better assault range and do not need a baby sitter

Exactly, a beast squad with 3 masters, 5 Khymera and 4 Flocks has a tonne of wounds and attacks (many of which are rending) and are insanely cheap. 156 points for 28 wounds (five of which are inv), 20 rending high I attacks, 23 normal attacks (even with no charge) all in a unit which is faster and doesn't need a HQ to acompany it.

I'd take four or five in a WWP list, just to save on points for everything else you need to spend them on. Toss them with a Haemonculus.

To answer the "Why would you even run Grotesques?":
A friend is doing a themed Haemonculus Coven list, and likes the idea behind them, but wasn't sure what to suggest to him for how many to run in each unit. Is using Portals anyway, for the Talos, and hasn't decided whether to use Raiders for the Grotesques or have them walk on too.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:To answer the "Why would you even run Grotesques?":
A friend is doing a themed Haemonculus Coven list, and likes the idea behind them, but wasn't sure what to suggest to him for how many to run in each unit. Is using Portals anyway, for the Talos, and hasn't decided whether to use Raiders for the Grotesques or have them walk on too.

Aah okay, if that is the case then I'd probably suggest putting them in a Raider. I still wouldn't rely on them heavily, but 1 or 2 small units will be okay to accompany the Haemy's when they throw down the WWP's. Also, as they are a single pose finecast mini, it will look silly if you have a massive squad of them all stood looking exactly the same!

Do you know roughly what the rest of his list will include? How many portals is he including and what point level is he aiming for?

Gorechild wrote:Also, as they are a single pose finecast mini, it will look silly if you have a massive squad of them all stood looking exactly the same!

People actually buy the Finecast Grots? I thought everyone just tacks on a head from the Talos set onto a Rat ogre

kenshin620 wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Also, as they are a single pose finecast mini, it will look silly if you have a massive squad of them all stood looking exactly the same!

People actually buy the Finecast Grots? I thought everyone just tacks on a head from the Talos set onto a Rat ogre

^^^^ Duuude! That's awesome.

*running to my bit box...

2000ish points
4 units of Wracks in Raiders, with liquifier and agonizer, led by Haemonculi with scissorhands and liquifiers
2 Talos, unsure of gun, ccw and chainflail
2 units of Grotesques, liquifier and scissorhand, led by Haemonculi Ancients outfitted like above
2? Units Scourges with some anti-tank gun
Maybe a unit of Trueborn in a Venom
2 WWPs somewhere, maybe 2 Shattershards
Maybe a Ravager or Razorwing

I run units of 3 Grotesques with a Haem in a raider. Haemonculus w/ Liquifier and Venom, Aberration with Venom Blade, Grot w/ Liquifier Gun and a regular Grot.
It's reasonably cheap, allows for wound allocation shenanigens, etc.

At 1500pts I run:
2x Haem (Liquifier Gun, Venom Blade) + 3 Grotesques (Liquifier, Abberation, Venom Blade) in a Raider (Flickerfield).
2x 10 Wracks (2 Liquifer Guns, Acotyhst, Venom Blade) in a Raider (Flickerfield)
2x 3 Wracks (Acothyst, Hex Rifle) in a Venom (2 Splinter Cannon, Night Shields)
2x Talos (TL Liquifier Gun, TL Haywire Blaster)
1x Razorwing Jetfighter (Monoscythes, Flickerfield, Shadowfield.)

To bring it up to 2000pts is simply another Haem + Grot Squad and another Hex Venom.

It's very much an MSUish list, there's so many threats most people don't really know hwat to do with it, and whatever they target has at least one redundant copy, and everything is a reasonable threat on its own. (Bar the Hex squads, but they simply sit on objectives and take potshots at things, and drop monstrous creatures).

And as for making the Grotesques, rather than paying £12.50 a monopose model, there are numerous alternatives. I used Wood Elf Dryads (12 for £20)

(I really need to take a better updated pic...)
But there's plenty of alternatives such as:
Various Ogre Kingdoms Ogres,
Chaos Spawn,
Various Troll models (O&G river trolls especially),
Beastmen Minotaurs, (I reckon Beastmen UnGors would work too.),
Vampire Counts Vargheists / Crypt Horrors,
Skaven Rat Ogres (I think these are most common).

Simple addition of other DE bits (Talos kit is great isn't it) and Green Stuff, and away you go.

So it looks like the overall answer is 3 should be enough if in a Raider, maybe 4, but if walking out of a portal bump it up to 4-6?

Pretty much.
Though it's occasionally hilarious to have a squad of 10 walking about with its 42+ Str6 attacks on the charge, shrugging off most all things thrown at them.

I remember walking 10 Grotesques (liquifier, ab, scissorhands) and a Haem ancient (Scissorhand, liquifier) across the field and roughly 8 plasma cannons and 4 heavy bolters caused 2 wounds before they slammed into and wiped out a squad of assault terminators. (36 Str6 hits, 7 Str6 Poisoned 3+ hits (re-rolls go!) and 7 Str 4 poisoned 3+ hits (still re-rolls!) ^-^ 50 attacks on the charge ftw.)

Gorechild wrote:If you're considering taking an extremely over priced special character to make a mediocre, expensive unit into one that is simply "ok" then competitiveness is going completely out of the window. You're also assuming that your highly tuned and expensive unit is being put up against very basic, naked units. If those Terminators have storm shields, odd's are that a liquifier will do very little. That unit of IG could easily be packing several melta's, a fist and an priest, with 2 dozen ablative wounds, that would hurt.

They are also infinitely more expensive. 3 Wracks in a Venom is 90 points, and gives you a scoring vehicle that pumps out 12 shots a turn AND can move 12". 90 points of Grotesque gets you a tiny unit that wont be able to do what you want it to do because you cant afford the HQ to baby sit them.

Actually, you're the one assuming I'm assuming things, I'm not assuming anything. If the terminators have thunder hammers (which I did talk about) they come with storm shields, and you think I assumed they were naked? Odds are good that liquifiers will do something, you're not requiring them to wipe out the whole unit with a flamer, but every one you kill because you got rid of the 2+ armour and doubled the chance of them dying on their expensive unit is a big advantage.

Yes, venoms are good (how does that make wracks better...oh yes, another fun thing that you apparently forgot to add, a single lascannon (and when is the last time you saw an army with a single heavy weapon?) can then destroy that venom, ends the threat of said venom, what's a single lascannon going to do to a group of grotesques; or since you're being completely narrow minded to that small squad of 90 point grotesques?

That IG blob can be packing as many meltas as they want, in combat they aren't doing anything, the powerfist might be able to do 1 wound, and what does that 1 wound count for when they've just lost a dozen or so men and they 1 wound they did has now not disadvantaged the grotesques in anyway? You might say that they get to shoot the meltas before combat, but if they come out of a WWP they won't have a chance to be shot and even they do get shot, again I say, so what? One of their guys loses a wound.

So, I have to ask, what makes them mediocre? The fact that they can destroy units (even combat orientated units) and tanks quite easily? The fact they are hugely durable? The fact that they are expensive? Terminators are expensive, they are not mediocre, they have power weapons; grotesques don't but since both squads end up with a dead target, what's the difference?

They die to paladin squads? Well duh, comparing things to paladins and then saying they get killed is hardly a reason that that unit is bad, put a unit of thunder hammer terminators against paladins, guess who comes out on top? Put anything against paladins and guess who comes out on top?

Grotesques are vulnerable to large amounts S10 (not widely available), they have a weakness, they're certainly the first unit to have a weakness I'm sure. Things like thunder hammer terminators (I compare them a lot, but they are a good unit that people love to use and are considered competitive and of equal cost) are certainly not slow, have no shooting and when a suitable amount of smalls arms fire (S4, which would do nothing against grotesques) would kill them because eventually they will roll 1s, and for every 1 they roll a large portion of the squad is dead. Even the great paladins can be killed with a few dark lances, missile launchers, rokkits, meltas to the face; do you know what those will do to a squad of grotesques?

Nightbringer, sorry to go off on that rant, since your question was about how many to take, not as gorechild made it, about whether to take them at all. But yes, 3-4 in a raider, upto about 6 per group if you're walking (either out of WWP or across the board) but I would reccommend either way having atleast 2 squads of walking ones and 3 squads of raiders.

I've made my grotesques out of Ogres (an excellent deal for how many you get compared to how many you need)

Those rat ogres are fantastic!

lord_bobbington wrote: Actually, you're the one assuming I'm assuming things, I'm not assuming anything. If the terminators have thunder hammers (which I did talk about) they come with storm shields, and you think I assumed they were naked? Odds are good that liquifiers will do something, you're not requiring them to wipe out the whole unit with a flamer, but every one you kill because you got rid of the 2+ armour and doubled the chance of them dying on their expensive unit is a big advantage.

It might do something but not wipe them out as you previously said. You only have a 1/3 chance of getting past their armour with a Liquifier and even if you do VS SS termies they will save it with their inv's 2/3 or the time. Lets say you manage to hit 4 out of 5 Termies with a liquifier, theoretically it should cause 2 wounds. Even if you do happen to roll a 1 or 2 for AP then you only likely to kill one model, two times out of three. Having checked back through your posts you didnt mention storm shields at all, you said Terminators, which are the PF/SB normal 2+/5++ 200 points for 5 unit, not Assault Terminators that could possibly take a storm shield.

lord_bobbington wrote: Yes, venoms are good (how does that make wracks better...oh yes, another fun thing that you apparently forgot to add, a single lascannon (and when is the last time you saw an army with a single heavy weapon?) can then destroy that venom, ends the threat of said venom, what's a single lascannon going to do to a group of grotesques; or since you're being completely narrow minded to that small squad of 90 point grotesques?

It makes Wracks better because they can take them? A single lascannon can do a lot of things That shot is more likely to wound a grotesque than it is to damage a Venom, due to the Venom having its 5++. The Wrack/Venom unit is also much more maneuverable AND scoring, which is a massive advantage.

lord_bobbington wrote:That IG blob can be packing as many meltas as they want, in combat they aren't doing anything, the powerfist might be able to do 1 wound, and what does that 1 wound count for when they've just lost a dozen or so men and they 1 wound they did has now not disadvantaged the grotesques in anyway? You might say that they get to shoot the meltas before combat, but if they come out of a WWP they won't have a chance to be shot and even they do get shot, again I say, so what? One of their guys loses a wound.

But last time you said they wouldn't even get hurt? Grotesques only have a 12" threat radius, any sensible player should be able to avoid them for at least a turn, giving all those meltas and dozens of flashlights to shoot at them. Yes lasguns are pretty rubbish, but when you've got enough of them then they can still grind units down. A 30 man blob can lay down a wound or two, pretty much half of the meltas should wound too. That can leave a dent even assuming the rest of the IG army for some reason decides not to do anything about them.

lord_bobbington wrote: So, I have to ask, what makes them mediocre? The fact that they can destroy units (even combat orientated units) and tanks quite easily? The fact they are hugely durable? The fact that they are expensive? Terminators are expensive, they are not mediocre, they have power weapons; grotesques don't but since both squads end up with a dead target, what's the difference?

The lack of power weapons and the fact that they have to be babysat by a Heamonculus? And that they are slow? DE's speed is one of the few things that stops them being a very average army, the other things are that their units are mostly cheap (grots arent) and that they can take insane amounts of S8 AP2 weapons (grots cant do this either). That's why they're mediocre (notice that mediocre doesn't mean bad!).

lord_bobbington wrote:They die to paladin squads? Well duh, comparing things to paladins and then saying they get killed is hardly a reason that that unit is bad, put a unit of thunder hammer terminators against paladins, guess who comes out on top? Put anything against paladins and guess who comes out on top?

I didnt say anything about Paladins at all, I've never even played against a unit of them so I wouldnt comment on that anyway!

lord_bobbington wrote:Grotesques are vulnerable to large amounts S10 (not widely available), they have a weakness, they're certainly the first unit to have a weakness I'm sure. Things like thunder hammer terminators (I compare them a lot, but they are a good unit that people love to use and are considered competitive and of equal cost) are certainly not slow, have no shooting and when a suitable amount of smalls arms fire (S4, which would do nothing against grotesques) would kill them because eventually they will roll 1s, and for every 1 they roll a large portion of the squad is dead. Even the great paladins can be killed with a few dark lances, missile launchers, rokkits, meltas to the face; do you know what those will do to a squad of grotesques?

Reliably wound them? Massed S4 shooting can definitely hurt them, they aren't T8, anything T7 or below can be killed by S4 and will eventually crumble when they take enough hits. Sure its not the most efficient way to do things, but they wont do "nothing". You're opponent is just as likely to roll a 6 for his "to wound" roll as a terminator is to fail his armour save.

lord_bobbington wrote: Nightbringer, sorry to go off on that rant, since your question was about how many to take, not as gorechild made it, about whether to take them at all. But yes, 3-4 in a raider, upto about 6 per group if you're walking (either out of WWP or across the board)

3-4 in a Raider or a big squad on foot? Funny, that sounds just like what I suggested in my first post, as well as suggesting that they aren't the most efficient unit he coud possibly take. Before we knew that the OP was against taking other, less coven themed units, advising that Grotesques aren't the best choice possible in the codex is sound advice. You might notice that I put a "" after saying not to take any, it was a joke, sorry if you take your toy soldiers too seriously.

The price grots pay for 3 T5 FNP wounds is actually rather rediculous. Basically the bog standard Grot is paying 11.66 point per wound, making them significantly cheaper and mech more resilient then your bog standard MEQ body. Basically with such crazy efficient resiliency against any shooting outside of S10, if the Grots are just threatening a table sector and getting bullets thrown their way they are doing their job. Also, they are by far the most meat per space of capacity that you can throw in a raider, making them a perfect delivery system for a WWP army.

3 to 4 Grots in a raider with 1 or 2 WWP packing Haemies is an ideal WWP delivery system. My persomnal preference at 2k is 4 Grots, one Hamei and one Master, with and aberation and an LG I have 9 T5 FNP and Fearless ablative wounds before having to remove a model. Plus with those heafty meat shields to hide behind you can throw all sorts of nifty toys on the Haemies (I find the...forget name...but thingy that lowers all units WS and Init to 1 to synergize with the Wracks quite well.)