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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Necroman wrote:Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.

They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.

That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.

Sorry to go back to GK's, but how does something so inhuman make them tolerable? It's like saying they are more relatble the more you dehumanize them. Of course you could say the same about necrons, but I think they represent the concepts of fear, nihilism, silence, eternity, etc. GK just conjure up solemnity, eliteness, strength, etc. All of which are already covered by normal SM. Also elite daemonhunters are fine, thats what the Ordo Malleus is for, in fact "regular" humans (aka inquisitors) being super badass and taking on daemons is far cooler than the GK doing it, this is why SOB/Inq is cool. They are still humans like IG but are far more dedicated, trained, and all that.

Back on topic orksaretheworstrace *trollface.jpeg*

GK are the Ghostbusters of 40k. How couldn´t that be considered awasome?

And greenskins are indispensable in the 40k setting.

GK remind me of Internal affairs.

Wiglaf wrote:GK are the Ghostbusters of 40k. How couldn´t that be considered awasome?.

"We came, we saw, we kicked its ass!"

Brother Captain Stern

Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)

What about Galvatron?

Monster Rain wrote:What about Galvatron?

Galvatron sucked. Plus, he killed Starscream. I'll never forgive him for that.

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)

So you think all Space Marines are wrong?

All Space Marines are just living weapons. I feel that Grey Knights simply fulfill the role the best way possible.

Monster Rain wrote:

Wiglaf wrote:GK are the Ghostbusters of 40k. How couldn´t that be considered awasome?.

"We came, we saw, we kicked its ass!"

Brother Captain Stern

You know how you dislike something, and then something small or otherwise insignicant happens which make you sort of like them?

I think it just happened.

Melissia wrote:

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)

So you think all Space Marines are wrong?

All Space Marines are just living weapons. I feel that Grey Knights simply fulfill the role the best way possible.

With Gws move for more cash, what with simplified rules and masses of minis needed per army (general, non specialised builds) the SM fluff has been diluted accordingly.

I would expect GK fluff to get weaker if and when GW decide they need to shift more GK trademarked goods and services.

SM has been that way since second edition for me.

Necroman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:What about Galvatron?

Galvatron sucked. Plus, he killed Starscream. I'll never forgive him for that.

He was voiced by Leonard Nimoy though.... which is epic

Melissia wrote:SM has been that way since second edition for me.

yuup.

The difference for me was that in 2nd edition, GK termies looked just like termies with the right paint job and a couple of pages of fluff in the Codex Imperialis, and were taken from the 'allies' section of the codex-army-lists pamphlet for a long long time. It was later, after the pewter-shift that GW $ decided they needed separate miniatures to represent them. cha-ching!

Im a bit iffy about the 'mind wipe' for Grey Knights. Character is an important feature for gaming and film. Mind wipe someones personality and you get a very generic person I think. I am yet to read any GK books though. Still, it bothers me.

I never saw GK as the elite of space marines either. They have mind powers and a shiny sword and kill Deamons. Lots of em. They get a bit extra, but thats it.

Mind wipes don't necessarily remove their personality. It can, but it doesn't have to. There are many levels of mind wipe and even mind control in 40k, and none of them are 100% effective.

Next Ranking? Please and Thank you

Monster Rain wrote:

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)

What about Galvatron?

Did Galvatron ever turn into a gun that was usable by another transformer? The original model could become a gun but i only remember galvatron turning into the cannon (as opposed to a gun) in the movie and tv show.

On topic i like the GK's. They are the elite daemon hunters. I guess the downside rules wise is that they need to be good (but not game breaking good) at killing daemon armies but also be balanced to match other armies.
Interesting bit from the lexicanum website:

The Grey Knights hold a unique honour among the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes - in over ten thousand years of service, not a single one of their number has ever defected to Chaos.

The Grey Knights are more loyal than the Primarchs!

PraetorDave wrote:Next Ranking? Please and Thank you

It'll get done. It's not been a good weekend/start of the week for me.

Melissia wrote:It'll get done. It's not been a good weekend/start of the week for me.

Think of cute little puppies. Mmm puppies.

PUPPIES TURNED TO CHAOS ARRRGHHH BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD DOG!!!

Umm, sorry, what was I saying? Oh yes, puppies. Mmm puppies.

I haven't seen anyone that uses khorne's puppies.

The models could do with an upgrade. But even if they looked awesome . . .

PRIME!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry...yet another opportunity 2 good 2 pass up....

asimo77 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Necroman wrote:Yeah, the Grey Knights are pretty much the bestest of the best in everything, and I just don't like how extreme that is. Which is a shame, because their models ARE beautiful.

They're also completely ruthless and will turn on and exterminate their own allies after fighting the Daemons. That's a pretty serious character flaw.

That's the caveat that makes them tolerable. The are just weapons, not people. The reach that level of unstoppableness by giving up all vestiges of humanity. That's why I don't really want to read The Grey knights books. I'm sure it humanizes them, which IMO is wrong. A Grey Knight with a personality isn't doing a good job of being a Grey Knight.

Sorry to go back to GK's, but how does something so inhuman make them tolerable? It's like saying they are more relatble the more you dehumanize them. Of course you could say the same about necrons, but I think they represent the concepts of fear, nihilism, silence, eternity, etc. GK just conjure up solemnity, eliteness, strength, etc. All of which are already covered by normal SM. Also elite daemonhunters are fine, thats what the Ordo Malleus is for, in fact "regular" humans (aka inquisitors) being super badass and taking on daemons is far cooler than the GK doing it, this is why SOB/Inq is cool. They are still humans like IG but are far more dedicated, trained, and all that.

Back on topic orksaretheworstrace *trollface.jpeg*

What I meant is what's the explanation for GKs not just being Supersoldiers but Superdupersoldiers is that they don't have a single second of the lives not dedicated to being the aforementioned duper. To imply, let alone write a story showing they do have lives is wrong IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

abaddon=gargamel wrote:Just doesn't sound the same from him...
But I think the GK have the worst fluff. IMO, humanizing a weapon is wrong (unless it's Megatron from the original Transformers cartoons)

So you think all Space Marines are wrong?

All Space Marines are just living weapons. I feel that Grey Knights simply fulfill the role the best way possible.

Yes they are but really not even close to the same extent. Ultramarines are the most strict giving you 15 minutes of free time a day but that is relaxed in the field which Ultramarines always are. Space Wolves never seem to train at all just booze it up. Plus they retain all of their memories and often their childhoods and each one does have his own personality. Nonetheless, I'll admit to a normal human an Astartes does indeed appear to be nothing but a living weapon but a GK is too a space marine what a space marine appears to a guardsman. They really are not people. Which once again is fine; just want the price they need to pay to be Grey Knights represented accurately. Any attempt to make them people cannot avoid mary sueness IMO.

I was hoping a certain Saint would amuse me with another prediction. But somehow I figure he might have predicted:

8: BLOOD ANGELS


... or at least that it would be roughly around this location. Fluffwise, I kinda liked Blood Angels. Metal nipples aside, I like their models. But the reason why they're low is because somehow, their playstyle feels... indistinct. As if they're borrowing a conglomeration of Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Space Marines and mashing it all together without developing a coherent narrative for the army.

As for the fluff, I admit I don't know as much about Blood Angels as I would like. I do like their primarch-- Saint Sanguinius, the only primarch considered worthy of being declared an Imperial Saint. Injured and tired from fighting a greater daemon, Sanguinius battled Horus as desperately as he could to protect his father, the Emperor of Mankind. Not seeking any reward-- but because it was the right thing to do. Being the symbol of nobility and honor in a grimdark universe, of course, means that he was killed, and his death was used as a catalyst to curse all of his progeny. The Space Marines afterwards fought desperately not to give in to this curse. They express themselves in the fine arts (something which is kinda endearing and humanizing about them), and yet, they must struggle to maintain their humanity lest they give in to the curse and become the Death Company. They are generally considered very reliable and friendly as far as Space Marines go, and have a good reputation for heroism across the galaxy.

As simple as this concept is, the "tragically doomed heroes" feel is captured very well and done justice by GW. I'm not so sure about the quality of some of the new fluff (as I said, I have only glanced through the newest codex outside of the army list, but all in all I think they're a very likable chapter without becoming Mary Sue. That said, where I feel they fail is the coherency of their army, and some of the more ridiculous things that they are given in order to give "flavor" to them. Descent of Angels feels like they went a step too far-- exchanging Combat Tactics for re-rolling failed reserve rolls sounds good. Exchanging combat tactics for reducing scatter by d6 sounds better. But both of them at once? Perhaps I'm misjudging it, but it feels like a bit too much. I get the idea behind this, but it still feels excessive (time will tell if it is-- I don't think it's THAT excessive mind). The deep striking land raiders come to mind as well, but they're only bad because the concept is ludicrous, not because it's dangerous or overpowered (quite the opposite).

But more than that, they just don't feel coherent. They wanted to give the Blood Angels an assault army feel, which is all well and good, but then they topped it off by making them a FAST assault army (good deep striking, fast tanks), and then a fast and durable (sanguinary priests anyone?) assault army, and then after that they made them a fast durable assault army with good shooting as well. So what CAN'T they do very well? Perhaps they succeeded and the issue is with my own expectations, as it doesn't appear to be an overpowered list, I just think it doesn't really feel like it is very well thought out and coherently organized. If it is my fault, then maybe Blood Angels just aren't my thing.

Metal nipples aside, the models are well crafted and the color scheme is nice to look at, but they don't really vary much from Space Marines visually, which is unfortunate. I don't have that many complaints about the army list and models, I just wish I had more GOOD things to say about it, because I like their fluff. Still, Blood Angels aren't doing badly as they're the first of the top half of the codex list.

phew, was afraid they'd make the top 3.

Melissia wrote:I haven't seen anyone that uses khorne's puppies.

As in Flesh Hounds, or Berserkers, or actual puppies dedicated to slaughter?...
If it's the latter, then I may not be online for some time. Panic rooms don't build themselves.

EDIT: also, some interesting points on the BA. I actually kinda like their core fluff, but yes, the new additions to their background are somewhat grating. I don't hink they're as bad as they are made out to be, but that does not negate their cheesiness. Still, many of the models are still cool, regardless of moulded chestplates (I still adore the idea of the Baal Predator) and their book though somewhat unbalanced, is by no means unbeatable, so yeah, I can live with this.

All three.

A berserker riding a flesh hound iwth a khornate puppy on his shoulder.

I didn't know Sanguinus was a saint. You've mentioned their interest in art before - what are talking about? I thought they were only interested in going insane with anger?
As for playstyle theme couldn't you consider them a deep strike army?

Melissia wrote:All three.

A berserker riding a flesh hound iwth a khornate puppy on his shoulder.

Atrocitus? Is that you?!

(sorry, bad Green Lantern joke)

Yep, Sanguinius is an Imperial Saint, the first one to be canonized I think (I could be wrong here) by the Ecclesiarchy in its earliest form.

Yes, they're interested in art, at least according to the Deathwatch roleplay. Their works of art are noted as being some of the best in the galaxy, as they have centuries to perfect them.

I think they actually do better when NOT deep striking due to being Fast.