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Wayniac wrote:
Oh I know that, just I like to keep themed armies especially at the normal scale of 40k. So I like to have an entire army with the same legion/chapter/craftworld etc whenever possible.

Run Abby with a gunline of lascannons. Techsolden had a list like that. Had like 18 or more lascannons in it. Don't think you will win a GT with it, but its should be more than competitive in a casual / semi casual setting / pickup game setting. Deploy far back at max range near the edge of the board and just try and shoot the opponent to bits. Abby will counter charge and murder anyone that dares to come close to the gunline while providing for full rerolls. Can be totally black legion.

(And since you are running mono black legion, you can consider adding a Norlitih crown too). An Abby gunline is rather static anyway, so it benefits alot from the Crown. Cos the crown gives an ever expanding huge aura of 5++ and makes your psykers better. All your lascannons (be it from vehicles like predator tanks or hacos)) will appreciate the 5++ the crown gives. And so will your troops. A big blob of thirty 5++ cultists that are immune to morale because of Abby and have 5+ FNP because of delightful agonies is pretty resilient and dirt cheap too.

Wayniac wrote:
I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.

I've been reading up on Possessed Bombs. No surprise you're confused, there's some contradictory information out about them.

As another poster mentioned, the basic mechanic is a Lord Discordant followed by a large squad of Possessed. You use various gimmicks to make the Possessed impossible to target, you use various buffs to make them an offensive Juggernaut.

This video does a good job explaining the concept:



But that's just the basics. There are 3 Legions competing for the best Possessed Bomb: Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Death Guard. There's a case to be made for Thousand Sons, but it's not very fluffy.

The mechanics they all have in common are:

- make the Possessed hard / impossible to hit

- buff the Possessed

- assault your opponent

Alpha Legion has the Conceal Stratagem, your opponent can't shoot the Possessed unless they are the closest unit. It's the simplest. Word Bearers are different, to protect the Possessed, you rely on Nurgle Daemon allies, like a Feculent Gnarlmaw to make them harder to hit. The reason to choose Word Bearers is the buffs to Dark Apostles, which becomes more important during the assault. Death Guard have the Cloud of Flies stratagem, which also makes it so your opponent can't target the Possessed unless they are the closest unit. But they also have things like Myphitic Blighthaulers, which give them cover even when they are out in the open, and Plagueburst Crawlers, which are just plain hard to kill and have great flamer weapons.

For Thousand Sons, you can just use the Dark Matter Crystal to move the Possessed anywhere on the Board. But they lack access to key HQ units, which makes this tactic a little less effective than it would be otherwise.

In terms of buffs, you rely on HQ units to make them tougher. Greater Possessed, Masters of Possession and Dark Apostles have powers that make your Possessed more effective in combat. Some combination of Soultearer Portent, Diabolic Strength, Prescience, Miasma of Pestilence, Weaver of Fates, Delightful Agonies, Cursed Earth, and Mutated Invigoration all help. You want to focus on increasing the number of attacks, the strength of the attacks, and the resiliency of saves, in that order.

For Death Guard - they don't have access to these key units. You need Sorcerers and Noxious Blightbringers to make them effective. Blades of Putrefaction and Putresent Vitality give them an edge. Nurgle Daemons also help with Virulent Blessing and Miasma of Pestilence.

Then you assault. While Possessed can be made very potent, it's worth considering who else comes with them. A lot of people run Possessed behind a Lord Dischordant, mostly because of his movement. I'm not convinced he's the best option unless you're angling for a Turn 1 charge (which is often uncertain.) Other people use things like Myphitic Blighthaulers / Plagueburst Crawlers to shield their Possessed, which are capable of a similar level of offense.

Watch out for the following.

1) Grey Knights will wreck your pathetic bomb. Beware anything that does massed Mortal Wounds.

2) Make sure there is lots of LOS blocking terrain on the board when you play them. Especially if you are playing ITC missions.

3) If you gear your army for a first turn charge, have a good plan B in mind. It doesn't always happen.

4) Be careful about deep strikes. If you're marching Possessed up the Board, spread out to prevent opponents making them the closest unit. You really have to get the Possessed to the heart of your opponent's army, they can't afford to be tied up. If a small Terminator squad drops in and makes a charge, you can lose a turn smacking them down.

5) Flyers are another concern, Dark Eldar Venom lists can decimate Possessed Bombs before they get there.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.

I’m afraid taking CSM units in a Khorne detachment kills LoR. DAEMON has to be a *faction* keyword to unlock CD perks.

Also, for the sake of completion, UF isn’t going to apply to the CSM units

I had an inkling about the locus, but UF as well?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.

I’m afraid taking CSM units in a Khorne detachment kills LoR. DAEMON has to be a *faction* keyword to unlock CD perks.

Also, for the sake of completion, UF isn’t going to apply to the CSM units

I had an inkling about the locus, but UF as well?

Locus of Rage only affects Khorne Daemons and only in a pure Khorne Daemons detachment.

Unstoppable Ferocity only applies to Khorne Daemons. While the GP and VC have the DAEMON keyword, Unstoppable Ferocity only applies to units replacing the <allegiance> keyword with Khorne. In other words, it has to be a faction keyword, CSM don't have that.

A mixed detachment of CSM and chaos daemons doesnt get a legion trait, and no locus of rage. Both require pure detachments. You do get unstoppable ferocity, because its on a units datasheet, and only affects that unit.

WRT possessed bomb - the other thing WB have going for us is our ability to force through a spell

Warptime (and, often, Death Hex) is critical to a swift and decisive strike, and I’ll happily pay a CP and a W to make a T1 charge with twenty mini-Helbrutes

 lindsay40k wrote:
WRT possessed bomb - the other thing WB have going for us is our ability to force through a spell

Warptime (and, often, Death Hex) is critical to a swift and decisive strike, and I’ll happily pay a CP and a W to make a T1 charge with twenty mini-Helbrutes

Now that does sound cool. Hmm perhaps that will be a side project to the Black Legion, since the Word Bearers colors and fluff are top-notch just their trait is awful.

Yeah, Word Bearers are all about the spells and stratagems. Gone from being a terribad faction to the one with loads of moving parts and some wicked combos

I'd rather the Strategem cost more and not require you fail the casting roll.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.

Loss of the trait isn't a big deal as itself is only one extra attack. If you charge. It's pretty bad

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.

Loss of the trait isn't a big deal as itself is only one extra attack. If you charge. It's pretty bad

You don't get the Locus either if you soup.

Kind off a bummer here imo.
On one hand we should supposedly soup, (we get no incentives to ever NOT SOUP) otoh if we do we don't even get god specific advantages.

Kinda lame imo.

I've got a couple of games coming up and I really want to try out the Hellwright on Dark Abeyant... In order to do so I am planning to surrond him with some Hellforged Contemptors but I am not sure wich would be the ideal loadout form the (was thinking some Soullburnners to spam mortal wound and hope they get in cc second turn).

As form legion I probably would run them in a Alpha Legion Detchment to get that very much needed -1 to hit... but depending on the load out I was thinking to give the IW Warlord Trait (Stoic Advance) to the Hellwright to move and shoot.


There has to be a way to make IW competitive...

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kind off a bummer here imo.
On one hand we should supposedly soup, (we get no incentives to ever NOT SOUP) otoh if we do we don't even get god specific advantages.

Kinda lame imo.

Daemonkin uses separate detachments marching together in the same way that ULTRAMARINES space marines and MACRAGGE PDF imperial guard have to have discrete organisational structures

It would be interesting to see rules support for a DIETY detachment, that contains no more than one LEGION, retain both CD and CSM faction perks, but it’s not happening until a new Daemonkin codex - which would likely do a lot more than just roll out mixed detachments

Might be something for DEITY armies in the PA daemon expansion, like that storm table in 6/7ed

 lindsay40k wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kind off a bummer here imo.
On one hand we should supposedly soup, (we get no incentives to ever NOT SOUP) otoh if we do we don't even get god specific advantages.

Kinda lame imo.

Daemonkin uses separate detachments marching together in the same way that ULTRAMARINES space marines and MACRAGGE PDF imperial guard have to have discrete organisational structures

It would be interesting to see rules support for a DIETY detachment, that contains no more than one LEGION, retain both CD and CSM faction perks, but it’s not happening until a new Daemonkin codex - which would likely do a lot more than just roll out mixed detachments

Might be something for DEITY armies in the PA daemon expansion, like that storm table in 6/7ed

Or they can make summoning not terrible.

I have a question for csm soup if i have one detachment and i put both black legion and night lord in the same detachment, what's happen?
1. lose legion trait for both legion ?
2. but i can access to both legion's stratagem, relic, warlord trait right?

kaiseric wrote:
I have a question for csm soup if i have one detachment and i put both black legion and night lord in the same detachment, what's happen?
1. lose legion trait for both legion ?
2. but i can access to both legion's stratagem, relic, warlord trait right?

Lose legion traits for both legions, and access each legions Stratagems, relics, WLs, etc. With the understanding traditional restrictions around marks / legion / unit type apply.

For example, if you put Abaddon in a detachment with Night Lord Raptors, the Raptors don't get rerolls from Abaddon's aura.

Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!

So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.

He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...

So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.

Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.

Just pelt them with the same Combi-Bolter and Autogun shots you would use ordinarily.

There should just be a broad allowance that Slaanesh/Emperor's Children, Nurgle/Death Guard, Tzeentch/Thousand Sons, and Khorne/World Eaters can ally with one another without the Daemons forgetting they are Daemons and the Legion forgetting how they fight, especially when said Daemons are in the damned Codex (looking at you Death Guard).

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!

So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.

He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...

So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.

Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.

CSM don't have a lot of great ways of getting rid of characters, unfortunately. I've been encouraged to try plugging the Master of Executions into a Rhino with maybe an Aspiring Champion and your melee unit of choice. My frustration is that it has no native mobility or deep strike options, which makes it very difficult to actually get him into combat - but if you could deliver him to the Dialogous, it's not like the Sisters blobs will be packing too much anti-tank - that I suppose is the job of the Iron Hands soup.

That said, what is the actual text of the Dialogus's ability? If it is "reduce the AP of all incoming attacks by 1" then it would stack, but if it is literally the same ability then it shouldn't stack like that.

For -3 AP, you can always stock up on Plasma! Take a few units of bikes and raptors for mobility and get them into position. Bikes can take two plasma and one combi-plasma per squad and raptors can take one plasma gun, one combi-plasma, and one plasma pistol. That should give you some maneuverability and firepower to break through the protections - but again, double-check the actual wording of the abilities.

It stacks. It’s explicitly called out as stacking to ignore AP-2.

What legion are you playing? Take a Night Lords detachment and vox scream those big mouthed loyalist skanks!

Gadzilla666 wrote:
What legion are you playing? Take a Night Lords detachment and vox scream those big mouthed loyalist skanks!

Language, not all here are slaanesh worshipper

Beyond that, yeah this is a way Same with slayers suggestion.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!

So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.

He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...

So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.

Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.

A 10 man unit of bezerkers on the charge with chainswords will put out on average about 16 wounds on a T3 3+ save target before adding in rerolls, VotLW, DttFE, or any other buff. This should clear out the sisters squad.

For the DA character, the best bet is a winged demon prince with wings or a chaos lord with a jump pack and thunder hammer can do it too. Either one with warp time should be able to catch the speeder and bring it down.

Both options will take some finesse and dice rolls to help but most tactics in the game do.

10 combibolter slaanesh termis deal out 40 shots at 24". Buff them with prescience, add a chaos lord, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, add votlw, and wound those imperial nuns at 2s. If necessary, repeat with endless cacophony. Or go the expensive route with 10 combiplasma termis, no votlw needed, you already wound them on 2s. Or go with RCC havocs, same buff procedure.

Wayniac I totally feel you. I too was cheated by GW choosing BL because of the color scheme (at first legions were just a little perk, nothing game changing, so you could actually choose one out of personal preference, for fun, good times... ) and then turning out to be the weakest of all not even 6 months later. And I too hate to soup. The good news is that actually every other chaos legion now is a solid mid tier by itself!

I would tell you to be strong and keep with BL if it was just a matter of being competitive... But the point is that every other legion now is FUN. Not only are strong, but they all play as they are supposed to! With sinergies and funny stratagem.

And lore wise the BL took warbands from every legion, some of the best fellows of Abaddon are a TS, an IW and an EC... So it makes sense that they bear the BL colors but fight their own way. Just have fun man!

Regarding the Possessed Bomb, strategies based on non targeting seem too theory hammer to me, very cheesy, complicated and boring. Just go with WB, buff them up and double the Damage with just one cp! Be careful on buffers though, it becomes a point sink very quickly.

And then they get nowhere and are just point sinks. There's a reason Possessed aren't working in other configurations.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!

So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.

He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...

So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.

Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.

A 10 man unit of bezerkers on the charge with chainswords will put out on average about 16 wounds on a T3 3+ save target before adding in rerolls, VotLW, DttFE, or any other buff. This should clear out the sisters squad.

For the DA character, the best bet is a winged demon prince with wings or a chaos lord with a jump pack and thunder hammer can do it too. Either one with warp time should be able to catch the speeder and bring it down.

Both options will take some finesse and dice rolls to help but most tactics in the game do.

Thanks everyone for the useful suggestions.

And thanks, you are one of the few that gave some suggestions to handle the two Dark angel speeder character shenanigens. I do have to point out though, that warp time can't be relied on. Sisters get a deny the witch roll easily. And they get strategems to deny outright the psychic as well. So, he can try to deny first, then start using strategems to further try and negate warptime. Warptime has very little chance of going off.

It does seem to be one of the only ways though, so I will have to think further about this. Even though I loath to trade a flying demon prince for one of his characters. (Once I jump in, even if I kill it, it will be in the midst of his army and likely to be killed). And of course, the method is by no means a gaurantee to kill either because he will have a 4++ save. So, if he is lucky enough to make all the saves, I would have failed to kill him and sacrificed a flying DP for it. (And he has two of these speedster characters). Even the overwatch suffered charging into such a character is going to be painful.

Sisters deny on 1d6 if they’re souped.