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If it's printed fact (and it is), I don't understand the need to obfuscate. GW can't copyright "10 points"

Or can they?

If so, I'm going to copyright "12 inches".

InB4 HBMC is dragged off to the Pits by Attack Pandas!

gorgon wrote:they look to do a number on Tyranids.

Because we dominate soo badly now that we need another codex to bring us down to earth. . . .

Yeah, I have to say that the new DE codex seems to spell some sort of doom for the poor bugs All the poison that can get thrown out will certainly give TMCs some major head/heartache...

...or maybe this is GW's way of trying to signal Tyranid players that the real strength of the army does not come from trying to maintain the nidzilla style in the new edition, but instead taking a diversity of species and actually fielding more than the minimum number of gants needed for 3 tervigons.

6 of 35 models in the Tyranid index are single wound.
(And that assumes you count spore mines)
Just saying.

One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.

I don't know. 1,100pts for 6 10-man troops with a lance/melta assault weapon, dark lance open-topped transport, a ton of poison shots, and a leader with a 4+ power weapon isn't to shabby a core to an army. And that's just the Warriors. Who knows what we're looking at for wyches so far.

And that is in comparison to Space Wolves w/6 5-man units in transports w/melta guns for 1010. That actually seems oddly balanced to me....

Still glass hammer but balanced outside of the codex which is good to see. Since popping those transports won't be to hard 12 independently firing st6-8 weapons.

I think playing them will probably come down to finding the right balance between quantity (sheer number of models) and quality (unit upgrades/wargear/weapons, transports, etc.). Just the basic models don't really seem like they would accomplish very much, but at the same time, spending 500 points on a warrior squad with all the bells and whistles seems like you're just looking to give up an easy killpoint and a significant chunk of your army.

Some armies like Marines can get away with this, but I think these guys will be too fragile.

ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.

To those of us who have steadfastly played this army for 12 years, we're well aware of that. However, it will be so nice to know we can have way more 'punch' now with this revamp. So it seems DE will still be a finesse army that will take experience and tactics to play. I'm ok with that, though I feel really bad for anyone jumping on the bandwagon thinking they will dominate right off the bat.

Yeah, I think the days of 5-man squads might be over but that all depends on the gear those units can have and at how many models are required to have it. Certainly w/poisoned-rapid fire weapons the more models the better. Talk about a disgusting shooting phase against T3 models

Rymafyr wrote:

ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.

To those of us who have steadfastly played this army for 12 years, we're well aware of that. However, it will be so nice to know we can have way more 'punch' now with this revamp. So it seems DE will still be a finesse army that will take experience and tactics to play. I'm ok with that, though I feel really bad for anyone jumping on the bandwagon thinking they will dominate right off the bat.

This exactly. I'm just hoping I can get some of the armies off ebay for cheap when they get po'd and quit playing them.

For me just being able to wound on a 4+ (because of poison) is a major and significant change to how I'll field my Raider squads. Typically I used to maybe wound 1 SM if I fired a Splinter Cannon, Blaster and 7 rifles, (For some reason blasters rarely did anything for me). I'm thinking with poison, I'll see that come to about 3 wounds which is going to be significantly better.

@HBMC -- HEEL, you weiner dog yapping at my heels! Before I smack you on the nose with a rolled-up DE codex.

I don't usually do the rumorage thing, so I'm just trying to stay respectful of any forum rules, whatever they are. *shrug*

Back on topic, DE hit like a truck, but they're still T3 with bad armor saves and lots of weak vehicles. Impaler cannons, deathspitters, brainleech devourers, biovores, etc. should take some toll...provided you can weather the storm early on. They're a boxer with a glass jaw throwing haymakers. They even have some S10 in their arsenal now, IIRC.

Actually... I feel almost as though DE are what Tau should have been (except the Tau would trade the DEs low AV for tougher vehicles and an inability to fight in cc).

I've got a strong feeling that even with all of the new updates etc. the same armies that won games before will continue to do so with the new dex. We may just have a few more options to use to get to the same conclusion.

Although, I haven't seen anything posted yet on restrictions to the 3 different army types. For all we know, some army types may not be able to use certain units at all, such as the wych armies not being able to use taloi, haemonculi stuff in the previous codex. They may have put similar restrictions on all 3 army types.

ThePhish wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:

ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.

To those of us who have steadfastly played this army for 12 years, we're well aware of that. However, it will be so nice to know we can have way more 'punch' now with this revamp. So it seems DE will still be a finesse army that will take experience and tactics to play. I'm ok with that, though I feel really bad for anyone jumping on the bandwagon thinking they will dominate right off the bat.

This exactly. I'm just hoping I can get some of the armies off ebay for cheap when they get po'd and quit playing them.

While I think this will happen since some people will not get the instant gratification of winning easily, I personally hope most will stick it out and learn how to field DE. I don't want to see a repeat of what happened to the original DE being pushed to arms length and getting ignored.

Regarding the 3 army types, I didn't notice any major restrictions. Looked pretty mix-and-match to me.

Regarding Haemi armies, Wracks are elites, so there's no actual Haemi troop type. You'll still need two squads of Wyches or Warriors.

Edit: Although Haemis or Urien might allow you to field them as Troops. I'll try to check on that.

gorgon wrote:Regarding the 3 army types, I didn't notice any major restrictions. Looked pretty mix-and-match to me.

Regarding Haemi armies, Wracks are elites, so there's no actual Haemi troop type. You'll still need two squads of Wyches or Warriors.

That's cool and I certainly hope this is the case. It doesn't make sense to limit options because you decided to field a specific army.

Interesting wargear tidbit:

Bigred wrote:
Clone Field
Projects holo-replicas of the bearer.
Nullifies D3 attacks against the model every assault phase, chosen by the bearer.

Rymafyr wrote:Shadow fields were 25 pts., 1 per army, gave the wearer +2 Inv save.

D'oh! True, 25pts, I fail at the internets.

gorgon wrote:Regarding the 3 army types, I didn't notice any major restrictions. Looked pretty mix-and-match to me.

Regarding Haemi armies, Wracks are elites, so there's no actual Haemi troop type. You'll still need two squads of Wyches or Warriors.

Edit: Although Haemis or Urien might allow you to field them as Troops. I'll try to check on that.

You sure? Someone on warseer was saying that they actually saw the codex and wracks were a troops choice.

Wracks are an elite choice, but Urien make them troops.

puma713 wrote:Interesting wargear tidbit:

Bigred wrote:
Clone Field
Projects holo-replicas of the bearer.
Nullifies D3 attacks against the model every assault phase, chosen by the bearer.

Schnikeys that's good.

Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, I think the days of 5-man squads might be over but that all depends on the gear those units can have and at how many models are required to have it. Certainly w/poisoned-rapid fire weapons the more models the better. Talk about a disgusting shooting phase against T3 models

Actually they might stay around, if DL's are as expensive as craftworld it might be better to do 5 man squads with blasters (since they are 18 inch instead of 12).

The thing I'm noticing is a lot of characterful gear and options for the DE, which is a fantastic turn of events. They may not be ultra powerful (though there seems to be lots of VERY interesting stuff in the codex), but they seem true to who they are and how they are represented. That alone deserves some recognition, that the DE actually have character now instead of a 40-page wafer thin codex and models with blades and spiky bits.

When I first read about Lelith having WS 9, I was irritated because I generally don't like to see stat-creep to such an extreme extent.

HOWEVER, the reason it doesn't bother me now is because of 'cut above the rest' or whatever the rule is that gives her a bonus attack for the difference between her WS and that of an enemy.

In my thinking, this makes it seem that giving her a WS just short of the WS of an incarnation of a god of war (Avatar) isn't a matter of GW saying "OH she is so freaking awesome you can't comprehend". It's more of an interesting game mechanic where the end result is her getting more attacks in an interesting way.


EDIT: also, once you get a WS over 7 or so, it really is irrelevant unless you're pitting her against a special character that also has a really high WS. A WS 7,8,9 or 10 unit will all have the same odds of hitting your basic marine or guardsman, right? (or am I misremembering the to-hit chart?)

Spiff wrote:EDIT: also, once you get a WS over 7 or so, it really is irrelevant unless you're pitting her against a special character that also has a really high WS. A WS 7,8,9 or 10 unit will all have the same odds of hitting your basic marine or guardsman, right? (or am I misremembering the to-hit chart?)

Being higher at all gives you the same odds of hitting anything. Being 2x+1 higher makes it harder for them to hit you. So a 9 gives meqs a 5+, so it seems to be misremembered, but not by much.

Ah. THAT's it. I knew I was forgetting something. Yeah, the 9 is double + 1 MEQ WS, making it harder for them to hit her. Good call.

Updated the summary. But we are getting close to the point where many people have seen the Codex and practically all information is accessible, making it impracticle to further update the summary with all the detailed information coming in.

Few more tidbits:

Locephax wrote:

Drazhar

Phoenix lord statline incl 2+ sv and EW, the demiklaves and he can move to a different spot in combat as long as he stays in B2B with opponents. other stuff too.

Drugs

3D6 pick the highest for running,
+1 S
+1 WS
can't remember this one
probably (? think the author meant probable, dunno though ) re-rolls is one
+1 free pain token (meaning most of the army gets feel no pain lol)
1 roll for entire army.