Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think it has to do with the "ROW not until after Gen-Con" remark.

yeah,
Sour grapes is one way to look at it, another way to look at it is U.S. gamers are getting two packages shipped for 'free'.
While those of us who are actually paying for shipping are being told to wait so that it can be boxed up in one package, probably to save on costs...

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
Sour grapes is one way to look at it, another way to look at it is U.S. gamers are getting two packages shipped for 'free'.
While those of us who are actually paying for shipping are being told to wait so that it can be boxed up in one package, probably to save on costs...

Panic...

You know, the least CMON can do is have all boxes shipped to ROW ticked as gifts.

BrookM wrote:You know, the least CMON can do is have all boxes shipped to ROW ticked as gifts.

I always ask overseas sellers to tick that the item is a gift, and if given the option will do the same. Nothing like having a package stuck in customs for ages, then having to pay for it, then having a package stuck in your local package place for ages because they deliver it when you are at work to really make you feel happy about buying something from overseas

SilverMK2 wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah,
Sour grapes is one way to look at it, another way to look at it is U.S. gamers are getting two packages shipped for 'free'.
While those of us who are actually paying for shipping are being told to wait so that it can be boxed up in one package, probably to save on costs...

Panic...

Ah, I see.

Still, what can you do?

I guess write and complain to CMON?

Maybe it will have an impact, and at the very least maybe have them run future Kickstarters differently?

Another reason that it is good to be in the USA!

Marking a non-gift as a gift is a Federal Offense here. Sure, the likelihood of getting caught is close to nil... but there are some of us who won't do it for that reason.
I'm certain that you can expect the same from a business.

As for shipping charges; I didn't see it that the US was getting shipped for free. I see it as $X in shipping costs was included in the cost of the pledge. That amount (X) just happens to be what it costs to ship in the US. If you're outside the US, you pay the difference.

Maybe, once the packages arrive, someone will be able to post an image that shows what actual shipping was. In the mean time, though, that makes sense to me. I see it all the time in personal sales (not just with the US, though Also with a given seller's "home" country).

Eric

yeah,

Alpharius wrote:...Ah, I see.

Still, what can you do?

I guess write and complain to CMON?

Maybe it will have an impact, and at the very least maybe have them run future Kickstarters differently?

Another reason that it is good to be in the USA!

I did that, I'm one of those people who constantly emails companies telling them if they are doing well or can do better for my money.
for example I wrote to Gw this month complaining about WD being late after the rest of the internet was reading it.

So email away to CMON...

Panic wrote:
Wednesday Aug 8, 6:04pm BST
Hi,
I'm a unhappy international CMON customer.
Making us pay for shipping and delivering to us later than those in america makes me feel unvalued.

I will not be backing future CMON kickstarters until your policy towards international customers/shipping has improved. Which is a shame as I quite like sodapop who will now suffer because of the way you handle things.

Frustrated.
Panic.

Amazingly they responded within in 5mins! pretty good.

CoolMiniOrNot wrote:Wednesday Aug 8, 6:09pm BST
Sorry to hear that Panic, but as a company based in the USA, there are some practical limitations in what we can do. Maybe one day we'll be the size of GW and ship everyone at once (if they do, haven't checked in a while). Hopefully we'll be able to meet your expectations some day.

They seem to blame the fact that their company is small but I don't see how that gets packages out to US customers quicker than the rest of the world...
Weird that they mentioned GW... meh what ya gonna do.

No more CMON love from me for a while...

Panic...

Just wish that the t-shirt I am waiting for could actually come in my size. So I am essentially waiting on 2 shirts I can't even wear.

Any chance I can swap them for more miniatures? Unlikely.

Panic,

The company is small enough that they can only handle soo many packages at a time. Even if they shipped everything the same day it would still take longer to get to you. They are delivering it to you on time. Your argument sounds petty. You are literally getting upset that the people in the same country of origin as the shipper are getting the product first.

Shipping within the US was included in the cost, it cost less than shipping ROW. Shipping outside of the US cost additional postage. It would be like me complaining about paying ForgeWorld's Shipping fees.

BrookM wrote:http://guillotinegames.com/img/zombicide_rulebook_english.pdf

Oy...so after this and Super Dungeon Explore I guess poor proofreading is a CMON staple.

"Make a Zombie Deck and an Equipment Deck" instead of "Shuffle the zombie cards together into a deck."

"Pick an equipment card" for the search action instead of "Draw an equipment card"

Various sentences throughout with the subject and verb in different tense.


Also, really scary that Survivors are so frail and do more damage to EACH OTHER than to zombies. You get in a car, you better make sure everyone else gets in before you move.

Maybe I have played too many board games that were made and translated in foreign countries, but I don't have any problems with those quoted sections.

Of course I also think that it makes sense that a living person would have more problems with getting run over a car than a zombie...

d-usa wrote:Maybe I have played too many board games that were made and translated in foreign countries, but I don't have any problems with those quoted sections.

Of course I also think that it makes sense that a living person would have more problems with getting run over a car than a zombie...

Well, most games I've played have clear gameplay differences between pick and draw, and between move and place(One of the scenarios I would survivors are supposed to move to a zombie spawn zone after the objectives are gathered, but is phrased such that you pick up the survivors and place them on an empty zombie spawn after the last objective is gathered.)

I also think people will argue as to the definition of "building", since there are buildings in the game that are five tiles long, and playing 13 spawn cards in one go would be quite shocking.

And my problem with the car isn't so much inflicting damage on surivors in the space it moves to, but inflicting damage on survivors in the space it leaves from. Kind of odd that there's no "Doesn't take friendly fire" skill available to go along with Sniper.

d-usa wrote:Of course I also think that it makes sense that a living person would have more problems with getting run over a car than a zombie...

Not really. The zombie is making a deliberate effort to kill you and eat your brains. The car is simply driving somewhere on the same street - even if you're on the sidewalk and the car parks on the other side of the street to wait for you to get in, it's still got a 50-50 chance of running you over.

Have you watched Shaun of the Dead? People driving cars away from zombies drive like loonies!

It’s like as soon as you start driving a car you turn into the guy from Carmageddon and just have to run everyone down. I can imagine that being house-ruled fairly quickly, along with the “you always shoot your friends first” part of the rules (assuming that’s still there). Call it the no ‘Friendly Fire’ house rule.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It’s like as soon as you start driving a car you turn into the guy from Carmageddon and just have to run everyone down. I can imagine that being house-ruled fairly quickly, along with the “you always shoot your friends first” part of the rules (assuming that’s still there). Call it the no ‘Friendly Fire’ house rule.

Yea the friendly fire bit doesnt sit well for me either

"Oh no! bob is surrounded by 5 zombies!"

(fire 1 shot)

"Oh looks like I have to shoot bob right now..."

kenshin620 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It’s like as soon as you start driving a car you turn into the guy from Carmageddon and just have to run everyone down. I can imagine that being house-ruled fairly quickly, along with the “you always shoot your friends first” part of the rules (assuming that’s still there). Call it the no ‘Friendly Fire’ house rule.

Yea the friendly fire bit doesnt sit well for me either

"Oh no! bob is surrounded by 5 zombies!"

(fire 1 shot)

"Oh looks like I have to shoot bob right now..."

It's an abstraction, but I think it's a good one. It prevents an apathetic response to the fact that one of your fellow survivors is about to be eaten alive - you must choose whether to try to save their life, or whether to write them off. Without friendly fire the most appropriate response would be the same either way: hose them down with a machine gun. Consequentially, it also prevents an apathetic response to the fact that there are zombies one zone away: it means you have to keep out of arm's reach, because your fellow survivors can't just hose them off your back if you get overrun.

Thinking about it more, I have to wonder if the friendly fire is to prevent Survivor death stars. Since wounds are split between all survivors in a zone, it's safer on the defense to be clumped up. But clumping up will make the survivors exclusively using ranged weapons a liability in tight quarters. It also gives Melee an advantage other than doorbreaking, since Melee damage selects its targets.

I'd probably still houserule away friendly fire from leaving a zone in a car though. Also probably houserule in limitations on cars so people just don't grab a pimp mobile and do donuts to rack up the xp.

I have to wait until my brother's copy arrives to see how it plays out, but the lethality of the game might make it more exciting overall. A lot of cooperative games tend to turn into a boring procedural grind once you figure out how to make the challenge go away.

AlexHolker wrote:It's an abstraction, but I think it's a good one. It prevents an apathetic response to the fact that one of your fellow survivors is about to be eaten alive - you must choose whether to try to save their life, or whether to write them off. Without friendly fire the most appropriate response would be the same either way: hose them down with a machine gun. Consequentially, it also prevents an apathetic response to the fact that there are zombies one zone away: it means you have to keep out of arm's reach, because your fellow survivors can't just hose them off your back if you get overrun.

The way I read the rule is that no matter what you always hit your buddies first. That's not an abstraction. That's stupid.

If there was a risk vs reward mechanic to it - you might hit your buddy, or you might clock a zombie - then fine. But right now it's a hierarchy, and your allies are at the top of that hierarchy.

I'd house rule so it's random allocation, when shooting into a group.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The way I read the rule is that no matter what you always hit your buddies first. That's not an abstraction. That's stupid.

If there was a risk vs reward mechanic to it - you might hit your buddy, or you might clock a zombie - then fine. But right now it's a hierarchy, and your allies are at the top of that hierarchy.

You're not supposed to regard it as a risk vs. reward scenario - the point is that if your buddy is in your line of fire, you don't shoot. Unless things are so FUBAR that killing your buddy and everything else in his zone is the least bad response, you're not supposed to be taking risks at other players' expense.

AlexHolker wrote:You're not supposed to regard it as a risk vs. reward scenario - the point is that if your buddy is in your line of fire, you don't shoot. Unless things are so FUBAR that killing your buddy and everything else in his zone is the least bad response, you're not supposed to be taking risks at other players' expense.

We're not talking about trying to shoot a guy who's wrestling a friend of yours in a tight dimly lit corridor. I'm not even talking about unloading a pair of Uzi's into a street and complaining that a stray bullet caught my buddy in the face. We're talking about not shooting one guy standing on a wide street, when that guy is surrounded by 5-20 zombies. I think it stands to reason that I would have a better chance of not hitting my friend with a single shot from a rifle or a pistol than I do of always hitting him no matter what regardless of who ever else is standing around him.


Friendly fire rules are fine (if my friend is in a room full of Zombies and I lob a molotov in there, then sure, he should probably get hit!). Friendly fire rules that defy logic (wide street, 20 zombies, 1 human, single shot always = 20 zombies fine & 1 human dead) are not.

I WANT ZOMBIES!!!
*as you were*

Sadly our copies won't arrive in time for next weekend Mike.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:You're not supposed to regard it as a risk vs. reward scenario - the point is that if your buddy is in your line of fire, you don't shoot. Unless things are so FUBAR that killing your buddy and everything else in his zone is the least bad response, you're not supposed to be taking risks at other players' expense.

We're not talking about trying to shoot a guy who's wrestling a friend of yours in a tight dimly lit corridor. I'm not even talking about unloading a pair of Uzi's into a street and complaining that a stray bullet caught my buddy in the face. We're talking about not shooting one guy standing on a wide street, when that guy is surrounded by 5-20 zombies. I think it stands to reason that I would have a better chance of not hitting my friend with a single shot from a rifle or a pistol than I do of always hitting him no matter what regardless of who ever else is standing around him.


Friendly fire rules are fine (if my friend is in a room full of Zombies and I lob a molotov in there, then sure, he should probably get hit!). Friendly fire rules that defy logic (wide street, 20 zombies, 1 human, single shot always = 20 zombies fine & 1 human dead) are not.

My perspective is that removing friendly fire might wind up turning into a "Community Chest money on Free Parking" situation. They might have tried friendly fire as a more traditional random method and wound up with playtest groups playing the game as an MMO style "Tank and Spank" where a few survivors distract the zombies and everyone else opens fire on them. I'll have to wait until my brother's copy arrives and we can actually test it out to see.

I think the basic thing is that players DO NOT want to be in the same square as a zombie. The game will mostly involve running away rather than trying to stand and fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexHolker wrote:I got a reply back from Guillotine Games, and they say the "Low Profile" and "Webbed" skills are part of the expansion. We'll find out what they do "in a few months".

They also responded to my suggestion of putting in a few 2*3 spacer tiles that would turn a one zone wide street into a two zone wide highway.

My guess is that "Low Profile" either means the Survivor doesn't count as a Noise token or that the Survivor is hit after zombies when another Survivor fires into their zone. Webbed might be combat webbing rather than spider-man webbing, but who knows.

MagickalMemories wrote:Marking a non-gift as a gift is a Federal Offense here. Sure, the likelihood of getting caught is close to nil... but there are some of us who won't do it for that reason.
I'm certain that you can expect the same from a business.

As for shipping charges; I didn't see it that the US was getting shipped for free. I see it as $X in shipping costs was included in the cost of the pledge. That amount (X) just happens to be what it costs to ship in the US. If you're outside the US, you pay the difference.

Maybe, once the packages arrive, someone will be able to post an image that shows what actual shipping was. In the mean time, though, that makes sense to me. I see it all the time in personal sales (not just with the US, though Also with a given seller's "home" country).

Eric

Techically we havn't bought the items. We donated money to a project and will recive gifts as a special "thank you" for aiding the kickstarter... Right?

RogueRegault wrote:My guess is that "Low Profile" either means the Survivor doesn't count as a Noise token or that the Survivor is hit after zombies when another Survivor fires into their zone.

The latter seems more likely, as the first is already covered by the "Ninja" skill, and then some.

Sikil wrote:Techically we havn't bought the items. We donated money to a project and will recive gifts as a special "thank you" for aiding the kickstarter... Right?

Hey, it worked for Wesley Snipes!

Wait...

MagickalMemories wrote:Marking a non-gift as a gift is a Federal Offense here. Sure, the likelihood of getting caught is close to nil... but there are some of us who won't do it for that reason.

It is a gift though - I donated to their fund raiser, they send me a gift as thanks


Edit: Just read the thread and have been ninja'd

A gift is something given without the expectation of recompense.
Neither our donations to them, nor their sending of product, was done without that expectation.

Unfortunately, it's pretty black and white... and, to reiterate, I'm not issuing any personal opinions on "marking as a gift" here, I'm just reiterating the legalities of it.

Eric