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Do you think Landspeeders would become ridiculously broken if, for the same points cost, they became 2HP AV10 Flyers? After all, the thing that usually brings down speeders isnt some anti-tank weapon, but massed bolter fire. And being able to only hit on a 6 (and then only glancing on a further 6) would greatly increase its chances of survival, even if it loses jink.

Would you want them to become flyers, even if they became slightly costlier? Or are you happy with them in their current state?

No, I don't think Land Speeders should be fliers. They have always been written as low-altitude skimmers that operate no more than fifty feet above ground level.

I think they are good the way they are. At the current point cost you still have to pay for the weapon upgrades and they are pretty easy to die so I think they are good the way they are.
Would be a pretty crappy flier since then you would have them on a HUGE stand haha

You should tryout playing some Dark Eldar.

It's a really slippery slope if you start turning skimmers into flyers. The last thing we need are Wave Serpents that have shields and can only be hit by snap shots. Skimmers are doing very well where they are.

I wouldn't want it anyway. Land Speeders are fine as is, especially since my favorite configuration is double MM. Rather have it Deep Strike and die than have a crappier Stormtalon.

They should have a special rule that states they reduce all weapons firing at them by 12" and cannot be engaged in close combat by units that cannot fly and or jump.

The range reduction also doesn't apply the other way round to the land speeders. It would negate the problems of small weapons taking them out by allowing the speeders to evade the weaponry whilst allowing them to fire back.

This would only apply to land speeders by the way, other skimmers don't need the buff.

Used to be that you could only hit skimmers in CC on a 6. I think that was a good rule.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Used to be that you could only hit skimmers in CC on a 6. I think that was a good rule.

Although that's what led to unkillable devilfishs.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Used to be that you could only hit skimmers in CC on a 6. I think that was a good rule.

Although that's what led to unkillable devilfishs.

Cue Fish of Fury...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They should have a special rule that states they reduce all weapons firing at them by 12" and cannot be engaged in close combat by units that cannot fly and or jump.

The range reduction also doesn't apply the other way round to the land speeders. It would negate the problems of small weapons taking them out by allowing the speeders to evade the weaponry whilst allowing them to fire back.

This would only apply to land speeders by the way, other skimmers don't need the buff.

They would be uncomfortably powerful for their price with this idea.

I don't think they would though, yeah, you can't destroy them as easily by turning mass bolter fire at them, but you should still have weapons with enough strength and range to take them out quite easily, or drive a transport right up to them and unload troops who can shoot it.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I don't think they would though, yeah, you can't destroy them as easily by turning mass bolter fire at them, but you should still have weapons with enough strength and range to take them out quite easily, or drive a transport right up to them and unload troops who can shoot it.

Yes, they're still killable, but that would make them too hard to kill at their price.

There is already a landspeeder that is a flyer

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
There is already a landspeeder that is a flyer

No, you mean land raider .

They can stay skimmers but they should not be able to be charged. At least having swivel guns they should be allowed to over watch.

It baffles me that in every picture and illustration you see them skimming 15-20ft above the ground. How can that be charged?

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Used to be that you could only hit skimmers in CC on a 6. I think that was a good rule.

Although that's what led to unkillable devilfishs.

Well, the solution to that is simple. Make it only apply to Skimmers that move at least 8" in the previous turn.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
There is already a landspeeder that is a flyer

No, you mean land raider .

He means the Tempest, as you well know. :p

I think hitting on 6s is a bit too harsh in CC but I concur with you that it's too easy to pop skimmers (and vehicles at large) with CC (in my personal opinion).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
There is already a landspeeder that is a flyer

No, you mean land raider .

He means the Tempest, as you well know. :p

Yup, but the storm raven is fun to make fun of.

Fluffwise "can move fast at high altitude" is slightly different from "Flyer", if you made the Land Speeder a Flyer you couldn't get away with not making every Eldar grav-tank a Flyer, and that would be bad (the Warp Hunter would become a Heldrake but much, much scarier).

The big difference between Flyers and Skimmers is that Skimmers can stop and turn much more easily, which is where the ability to jink and still fire comes from; Skimmers would probably use Flyer-like move to get to the battlefield, true, but they're very vulnerable to AA, and if they get down on the deck and weave through terrain they're much harder to hit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Fluffwise "can move fast at high altitude" is slightly different from "Flyer", if you made the Land Speeder a Flyer you couldn't get away with not making every Eldar grav-tank a Flyer, and that would be bad (the Warp Hunter would become a Heldrake but much, much scarier).

The big difference between Flyers and Skimmers is that Skimmers can stop and turn much more easily, which is where the ability to jink and still fire comes from; Skimmers would probably use Flyer-like move to get to the battlefield, true, but they're very vulnerable to AA, and if they get down on the deck and weave through terrain they're much harder to hit.

Except they aren't harder to hit as skimmers compared to flyers

There should be a way to cc a flier.
Whether only by FMCs, jetbikes, open-topped skimmers, jump-pack troops, or teleporters (who then crash to the ground).

As for Land Speeders, they're just in hover mode, and flew to the battle beforehand.
Would you really want your skimmers to be stuck out in reserves for half the battle?

 Flinty wrote:

Except they aren't harder to hit as skimmers compared to flyers

That's represented by their jink save.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Do you think Landspeeders would become ridiculously broken if, for the same points cost, they became 2HP AV10 Flyers? After all, the thing that usually brings down speeders isnt some anti-tank weapon, but massed bolter fire. And being able to only hit on a 6 (and then only glancing on a further 6) would greatly increase its chances of survival, even if it loses jink.

Would you want them to become flyers, even if they became slightly costlier? Or are you happy with them in their current state?

If this happens, all my dark eldar skimmers should be flyers then

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Do you think Landspeeders would become ridiculously broken if, for the same points cost, they became 2HP AV10 Flyers? After all, the thing that usually brings down speeders isnt some anti-tank weapon, but massed bolter fire. And being able to only hit on a 6 (and then only glancing on a further 6) would greatly increase its chances of survival, even if it loses jink.

Would you want them to become flyers, even if they became slightly costlier? Or are you happy with them in their current state?

If this happens, all my dark eldar skimmers should be flyers then

And pirahnas.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

Except they aren't harder to hit as skimmers compared to flyers

That's represented by their jink save.

Good point. Is a 5+ jink better than 6s to hit? My mental mathhammer is failing me.

 Flinty wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

Except they aren't harder to hit as skimmers compared to flyers

That's represented by their jink save.

Good point. Is a 5+ jink better than 6s to hit? My mental mathhammer is failing me.

Its not, but it represents the ability of a skimmer to actively "dodge" in 3 dimensions whereas most vehicles are stuck with 2. Flyers are moving at extreme velocity in 3 dimensions making them harder to hit, but if they choose to Evade, they are going to have a hard time targeting anything for those same reasons.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Do you think Landspeeders would become ridiculously broken if, for the same points cost, they became 2HP AV10 Flyers? After all, the thing that usually brings down speeders isnt some anti-tank weapon, but massed bolter fire. And being able to only hit on a 6 (and then only glancing on a further 6) would greatly increase its chances of survival, even if it loses jink.

Would you want them to become flyers, even if they became slightly costlier? Or are you happy with them in their current state?

I would have to agree with others, they should not be fliers. They are specifically noted for not being fliers or capable of 'flight'. They can be deployed from upper atmosphere, yes (so perhaps allowing deep striking with them would be okay from a fluff perspective), but they more or less just fall until they are near enough to the ground for their gravitic engines to keep them from splatting into terra firma.

They lack the speed and altitude capabilities to make them true fliers.

I wrote this a while ago, and I think it pretty much sums up the differences between Jink and Hard to Hit.

most definately no. they are fine as they are.