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Lormax wrote:

JokerGod wrote:3) I'm not saying its a good idea, I am saying they have to increase there prices or they will take a loss in WD and wont have one at all. Clearly only one or two of you here even buy WD so they are not making as much money on it then the models, because of that you could argue that they had to cut back on content because they could not support the same amount of employees as before with the loss of money. Also, with rising prices for materials they must raise prices to keep the same profit they are making now.

So you're saying you know why they are raising prices? Where are you getting your info?

As stated before, if you don't like the current WD make your own and distribute it, then you can see for your self how much time and money has to go in to it, then you might stop complaining about what GW has to do to keep it published.

There already is a fanzine, it's distributed on Warseer. I forget the name, but it's free and there's actually CONTENT. Why should I reinvent the wheel? I'll speak with my wallet...download and enjoy a freely distributed fanzine, or pay for WD? Take a guess at what I'm going to do.

GW really needs to embrace the digital age. "Living" codex's, an on-time updated Army Builder software, a email list to distribute FAQ's (or the ability to print them in-store)...lots of easy ways for them to promote and make their "hobby" better.

I get my info from the global market traders (You know, stocks of company and price of materials. When you own your own company you look in to things like that)

If you don't like it, don't buy it, but don't come here and cry because you don't want it.

Polonius.
I stated I DO NOT like to get in involved with a lot of arguments, there counter productive and don't lead to anything. And some one having bad spelling is not braking the "rules" and its not disrespectful, its showing that they either A) Don't have English as a first language. or B) Had problems growing up and did not learn it all, such as moving around a lot when younger, not all schools keep the same schedules.

WD is a magazine based on a hobby, when that hobby losses sales they have to either raise prices to keep making profit or cut some things back. WD got smaller because they lost people to work on it, now the price is going up because it is costing them more to print it every month then it did before.

I am don arguing here, it is very clear your all to set in that GW is some big bad guy that hates all of you and only dos things to make them money and doesn't care about the customer. I guess its just unheard of that a relatively small company can being doing its best and still not be perfect and make all of you happy

If you don't like it, don't buy it, but don't come here and cry because you don't want it.

(Non-Mod mode fyi)

True that. We're offering ideas on what would get us to buy WD.
Besides its a free board, we can indeed come and "cry," just as you're free to disagree.

HisDivineShadow wrote:Seeing how little/none advertisements there are in WD from companies other then the people publishing it, I think WD is more of a company newsletter then a magazine.

You're close.
It's actually a catalog. Literally.
GW mails White Dwarf at the "catalog" shipping rate, instead of the "magazine' shipping rate, which is higher.

The benefit to them is that they get to keep even more of your dollar.
The benefit to us is... higher prices.

Hrmm... Why do I feel like I got screwed, but nobody bought me dinner first?

If your "magazine," for any reason, goes unclaimed by you it does NOT get returned to the publisher like a regular magazine does. It gets treated like a catalog (which it deserves) and is placed in the trash.

WD is overpriced at $6. There is little to no content of value to me at all, and it is CHOCK FULL of advertisements. At $8, it's no more than a punch line.

I know of no other magazine that is so expensive, and I can't think of any good reson why this one should be, either. No only that, it has the CRAPPIEST subscription rates out there. Most magazines have HUGE percentages off of the price when you subscribe. Not WD, though... Nope... It's like a "Buy 5, get one free" with them!

Eric

Wow. Just, wow.

Ok, there is no set rule on spelling, but there is a rule about being polite. Some spelling mistakes get through a spellchecker, while others would be easily caught. Not performing a simple task to clean up your posts is, at the very least, not as polite as you could be. Nobody is asking you to fix a fundamental flaw in yourself, they're asking you to use a freaking spell checker. You own a company, you have to know the importance of appearances and clear communication. Why are you faffing around on this? In an earlier post, you mentioned to somebody that "your hole post was gak," and it took three reads to notice that you meant "whole", as in entire, not "hole" as in a-hole. That dramatically changed the way I viewed that post, and you! Now, spellcheck wouldn't have caught that, but if you want your ideas listened to you have to understand that when people see you as a jerk, they listen less.

And again, put away the damn straw man! Nobody (or very few people) here is vilifying GW, we're merely pointing out low cost, low effort ways they could improve a product and thus sell more of it. I also reject the idea that a global company with hundreds of locations is a small company that needs our support. It's not a major evil corporation, but it's a serious business from which it's not entirely out of line to expect serious behavior.

I don't know what your problem is, nobody is calling for a boycott or asking others not to buy it, they're simply explaining why they aren't buying it. To be fair, they're explaining why it seems odd TO THEM that GW is raising prices at this juncture in WD's quality curve, but I think people understand why the price is going up. You seem to want to be angry with us, when we've done nothing wrong or upsetting.

At 7 euro I could buy my lunch. I think I'd rather spend it on a burrito than WD. I bought the space marine issue there a while ago, and I was very disappointed. The content is very weak. For me, the best of it is LOTR articles, then Fantasy and lastly 40K. The new format for battlereports is mindboggling. Where's the map? Why is everything split up into sections? Why isn't it turn by turn? It's very hard to get a sense of what is going on, the way they are written.

WD got smaller because they lost people to work on it, now the price is going up because it is costing them more to print it every month then it did before.

Wrong. The UK in 2005 changed procedures on how and what WD covers, went to a more universal worldwide cut and paste format, and then started cutting staff to work on it. Compare any 2005 WD to most 2006 WD, you'll see. When the changes were made, staff were made redundant, and they started letting people go as they had no reason to justify the expenses of keeping the employees around. And they let go some really fine hard working people whom I've had the pleasure to work with.

Yes, I think we can all agree that cost of printing has certainly gone up as have everything else. But that's not our argument, its value for the price we pay....which right now is lacking.

I am don arguing here, it is very clear your all to set in that GW is some big bad guy that hates all of you and only dos things to make them money and doesn't care about the customer. I guess its just unheard of that a relatively small company can being doing its best and still not be perfect and make all of you happy

No, we just want GW to make sensible business decisions. We want GW to make a profit so they can keep making great models. I want GW to make a profit to keep my portfolio happy.

GW mails White Dwarf at the "catalog" shipping rate, instead of the "magazine' shipping rate, which is higher.

Quoted for Truth. By USPS definitions, a catalog contains/advertises only ONE company's products, while a magazine contains/advertises multiple companies' products. And USPS doesn't place priority on ensuring timely deliveries of catalogs as they do with magazines.

EDIT: re-opening at request. Lets keep it polite people or I shall close this thread with the swiftness of a Texan running for a plate of fajitas.

yeah,
Thanx for reopening...

Lormax wrote: GW really needs to embrace the digital age. "Living" codex's, an on-time updated Army Builder software, a email list to distribute FAQ's (or the ability to print them in-store)...lots of easy ways for them to promote and make their "hobby" better.

GW really needs to embrace the digital age. Aint that the truth! but that's got nothing to do with the price or quality of WD!?... offline?

Also the fanzine you mention is obviously amazing... being you can't remember it's name!
But I agree Army profiles, waky rules are something for fans to make and distribute them selfs. I'm not that interested in wakky rules but I do like clicking around the net looking at Army Profiles...

WD is about showing the game from the Company/Studio side of things. It's the clean un-adulterated version of the hobby.
Look we have a new battle wagon check out it's stats and rules... this is how we painted it... look at how the battle wagon performed in a batrep.

Ok lets look at a break down of the last issue?
121 pages:
2 pages for editorial and contents
13 pages that have pictures of products and Prices....
4 pages Adverts for : LOTR tourny, forge world, BL mechanium book
6pages for raids in warhammer FB
9pages for tale of four gamers 40k
6pages tactics for magic in LOTR
21 Pages about the SM codex
26 pages for 3 SM BatReps
3 Pages for Standard bearer by John Blanch
1 page how to use transfers
6 Pages how to paint LOTR Characters
6 Pages how to drybrush over brush
14 pages of FrontLine: open day pictures & details, Event calendar/news, how to find stores and hobby clubs
1 page next month..

There was alot about the Space marines being that they were this months release.
I really enjoyed the three SM batreps from the last issue... being that they didn't win all three!

It's a Magazine to keep you upto date with your hobby... reading the above is it succeeding in this or failing?
It's giving you the news, throws out a few ideas, Show you how they make/paint the studio armys and tables etc...
Some tactics, Whats happening in tourny/events land, new stores, new clubs.

Whats missing that's stopping you from buying WD? If they added it in would you buy?
What was in this months you think should be taken out? Why?

Bearing in mind that what you want dropped is what another person is interested in?

Panic...

Panic what is that Avatar? Its kewlll...

yeah,
It's the 40k plastic objective counter. I took a picture of it in a dark corner with a lamp on it.
Seemed important since in the grim darkness of the far future a thousand souls die every day fighting over shiny green flags.

Panic...

Panic wrote:Whats missing that's stopping you from buying WD?...

For the current price tag a terminator and a ork.

Polonius wrote:If nothing else, labor costs can go down, while oil has plummetted from this summer's high. Prices go up when demand goes up, not up when demand lessens.

If you look at oil pricing (DoE data) since gas started the increase in Jan 2002, this summer was an aberration, but we're still above where we should be from a pure numbers / trendline standpoint.

The difference is that this summer, the spike was quite a bit higher and prolonged than last year, or even the year before that. Plus we didn't ease nearly as much during the previous winter.

We might get from $3.50/gal down to $3.00/gal, but I wouldn't expect $1 or $2 gas anytime soon...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Polonius wrote:If nothing else, labor costs can go down, while oil has plummetted from this summer's high. Prices go up when demand goes up, not up when demand lessens.

If you look at oil pricing (DoE data) since gas started the increase in Jan 2002, this summer was an aberration, but we're still above where we should be from a pure numbers / trendline standpoint.

The difference is that this summer, the spike was quite a bit higher and prolonged than last year, or even the year before that. Plus we didn't ease nearly as much during the previous winter.

We might get from $3.50/gal down to $3.00/gal, but I wouldn't expect $1 or $2 gas anytime soon...

Oh no, I'm pretty sure the days of cheap oil are behind us. Global demand is only going to rise over the long term. I was merely pointing out that when the economy slows down, people and businesses buy less, demand lessens, and prices go down. The current crisis has thus far slowed the economy, but it's still not a technical recession (although we're getting close and may have been). The drop in oil prices has actually had an impact on some wells that started production again, only to end up losing money as they can't sell for enough to justify production.

WD has been $6 for a while now, and it's not our line for the price to go up, I just think this is the wrong time for greater disincentives to buying the thing. As Da Boss said, If I get more enjoyment out of my Burrito than out of WD, dollar for dollar, it's time to put the money elsewhere.

Polonius wrote:
WD has been $6 for a while now, and it's not our line for the price to go up, I just think this is the wrong time for greater disincentives to buying the thing. As Da Boss said, If I get more enjoyment out of my Burrito than out of WD, dollar for dollar, it's time to put the money elsewhere.

Here its 8 euros so consider yourself lucky
Seriously, 8 euros buys you a nice individual metal miniature in most places.

$6? That's about £2.80 (ish). Here in the UK we pay £4. So with my poor exchange calculations that's about $9. Would you pay $10 for a WD? The new price rises will make that a reality for people in the UK.

I've probably cocked that up, but the point is it's still much more expensive here.

Polonius wrote:

JokerGod wrote:

As the economy falls, prices for materials gos up, and with that GW has to increase there prices to still make a profit, any one that thinks its just them "price gouging" needs to go back to school.

Easy there killer, that straw man can't fight back, you know!

Look, you seem, from your posts, that you're just a loudmouth who delights in telling us all how stupid we are, but on the off chance that you're not a complete troll I should point this out.

1) nobody is calling it gouging, or at least not most of us. We simply are making an economic decision based on how valuable something is and how much it costs
2) I wouldn't be such a big man about claiming we don't have an argument. Spelling is important as a method of communication, but I've noticed that there is little response from you two to reasoned arguments either.
3) There's an argument to be made that GW is making a mistake in raising the price. If WD is an effective method of advertising for GW, then making it less likely to get in the hands of it's target audience reduces how much market penetration it has for it's new products. I don't have the figures, so I'm guessing they've kept that in mind, but WD makes a good "loss leader" to create more buzz.

Also, in a time of economic problems there is usually also a more general deflationary effect. If nothing else, labor costs can go down, while oil has plummetted from this summer's high. Prices go up when demand goes up, not up when demand lessens.

QFT.. quit beating up on the strawmen, they didn't do anything to you..

Panic wrote:yeah,
It's the 40k plastic objective counter. I took a picture of it in a dark corner with a lamp on it.
Seemed important since in the grim darkness of the far future a thousand souls die every day fighting over shiny green flags.

Panic...

I also stopped subscribing a few years back. I pick up maybe two issues a year now. The content just got too superficial and broad. I miss the days of the detailed battle reports, new rules (even optional ones), and Specialist Games coverage.

Also, as with many magazines, the content is too diverse. If you do not play more than one game you are not getting a lot of relevant content for your money even though they have increased the overall page count of the magazine. In my case I only play 40K (and BFG) so each issue is a bit light for me. Combine this with army preferences and things get even lighter. Obviously those who play more than one of the main games and lots of armies get a lot more value for their dollar.

I do not believe the magazine is priced out of line for its physical qualities and lack of paid advertisements. But once you get above the 'average' magazine rate of $30-$50 a year I think most consumers start getting a lot more critical about value. I have no idea what the print run is of WD but I suspect it is still high enough to be making money (or breaking even) and satisfying the need for a house organ. It certainly is a good magazine for someone in their first year or so of the hobby to get exposure to the world of GW and tabletop gaming -- I think that has become its main purpose now and not to provide veteran support. Looking at WD in that light it is a pretty good publication (but could be improved) but it simply is not suited to the majority of people on Dakka.

It is disappointing that GW has not found a way to support the veteran gamer in a consistent manner. Something like 'Firebase' would be a great idea for 40K fans and GW could add news, new release info, and 'Eavy Metal stuff. For awhile Black Gobbo was a nice 40K mini-pub but that went downhill after awhile as well.

The problem of course, as anyone who has tried to do any sort of publication knows, is that producing a quality, content-ripe publication is a lot of work. Combine that with high physical qualities and you have even more work in art and design. I suspect GW has 'lightened' the content in many ways to make it a bit easier, and cheaper, to produce. But generally I think they simply changed the goals of the magazine and probably figure the various fan supplied sites will satisfy the veterans.

I've read through an old WD (UK 246) and even though it is severely dated it is still a blast to read. They got several army showcases, a presentation of the Craftworld Eldar codex plus a Eldar history class by Gav Thorpe, a much missed series of fantasy articles penned by Mike Walker with actually funny footnotes and editors comments, a workshop on how to create orky fortresses and sixteen (16!) pages dedicated to the background of the Space Wolves including a glossary and iconography. There are 18 pages of ads and plugs promoting their recent releases and whatnots. Though these are hardly noticed due to the great content it has all round.

In comparison the new ones feel like the same old same old again. I especially feel that they are running out of stuff to write for their oft-skipped Lord of the Rings section.

Does anyone remember the "Lion and the Wolf" story that was in it about the origins between the rivalry between the Dark Angels and Space Wolves? That was savage. As was the seige of the imperial palace piece. They stopped doing bits like that and it's a real shame, they're inspirational.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Polonius wrote:If nothing else, labor costs can go down, while oil has plummetted from this summer's high. Prices go up when demand goes up, not up when demand lessens.

If you look at oil pricing (DoE data) since gas started the increase in Jan 2002, this summer was an aberration, but we're still above where we should be from a pure numbers / trendline standpoint.

The difference is that this summer, the spike was quite a bit higher and prolonged than last year, or even the year before that. Plus we didn't ease nearly as much during the previous winter.

We might get from $3.50/gal down to $3.00/gal, but I wouldn't expect $1 or $2 gas anytime soon...

It's getting closer here (Kansas City, MO area), I think we're down to $2.42 as of last night.

I saw $2.49 this morning in Iowa.

What?

JohnHwangDD, wrong again?

No!

@Alpharius: Are you aware of the DOE methodology?
They calculate an *average* price across the *entire* US.

Not just the flyover states.

That is why, here in California, we're still $3.50+...

I forgot you live in SoCal!

I lived there for 6 years myself, and the Sunshine Tax (and the population density!) finally got to me.

It is going to sound crazy, I know, but I really got sick of the weather too!

So, I eventually made it back home, with a 3 year stop over in South Carolina...

SO yeah, California gas prices are painful, aren't they?

Lucky you!

I've been here for 5 or 6 years now, and managed to land a place where my commutes are reasonable.

I still miss having actual seasons - there's something nice about seeing the ebb and flow of time in the seasons.

But the gasoline pricing is bad stuff - junk science "oxygenated" and so on.

WD has been sapped of any true "hobby" articles; its a catalog and a poor one at that. The things the average reader wants are simple but GW doesn't want to provide them. I hope the few who are reading it shouldn't put up with this and GW realize they can't afford to give us this dribble.

Has GW lost their minds?

$8 gets almost 3 pots of paints, 1/3 of a assault squad, etc.

I was a marginal buyer of WD. I'm done. I will stare at store copy and call it good. I would be hard pressed to spent $8 on a WD in glory days of Andy Chambers Chapter Approved articles.

First the modular table, now WD.