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Ensis Ferrae wrote:i dont think you could legitimately do penguin and catwoman in the same film, as there would likely be law suits following as it was the EXACT villain duo used in batman returns.

No legal suits there, Warner Brothers did both movies. They have almost as much say in DC as DC, they(WB) even forced Wizkids to capitalize every letter in the name of every DC character Heroclix.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, look at how the Joker was portrayed.

In the comics and previously, he's been darkly comical, fond of daft things like exploding Jack In the Box etc. Then Nolan had him just utterly bonkers, living in a world of his own where he just didn't seem to really consider the consequences.

So, Penguin as the Mob Boss could well work. Just have him dressed dapperly, with a kind of Penguin 'wark wark wark' laugh and leave it at that.

Ledger's Joker was reminiscent of the Arkham Asylum Joker(both are more of the early "Hyper Insanity Evolution" to survive the next step in social evolution that's to come).

Ensis Ferrae wrote: ohh sure, maybe even MORE discreet than that...and NOT that bloke they got in a suit for that pic.... he would NOT make a very good riddler...

yeah,
The doctor!!! you know nothing, davids an amazing actor!
I'd more than welcome seeing him play the riddler.

Panic.

Jason Statham or John Travolta as Hitman

Panic wrote:yeah,
a twisted mind like the riddlers could be made more dark and perverted... If they steer him away from joker crazy, and more toward smart crazy!

The problem is the film played the Joker like that. He said he was random-inverting others plans but a third of the movie is him doing this elaborate plot to get the Chinese money launderer back, which incidentally kills off the Bat love interest. I don't see how you could separate it in a film.

I really think they should just quit at this point. Anything further will be a let down, and start the slide into stupidity.

I can on one hand see where you are coming from Frazzled, but on the other as a big Batman fan I'd love to see them keep going. As long as they don't de-evolve into the horror show that was 'Batman and Robin' then I'd be eager to watch it.


Heck one of the main reasons I watch the Justice League cartoon is Batman again, he is the best character DC have as far as I'm concerned, probably pushing for best overall individual character for me as well if I think on it, even though I am mainly a Marvel fan.


From reading what Nolan has said though, I do feel he has at least another, maybe two good Batman films in him.
The only danger would be if he decides to break Batman out of this 'younger Batman' phase and bring Robin into the mix. He has been quoted as saying he doesn't see Robin coming in for a few films yet, so its not as clear cut as him saying he'll never do him.

Also Robin may not be that awful if he was done right, although I have no idea what he's like in the comics. Only Robin I know is from Teen Titans cartoon and the previous films/60's series.

If they bring Robin in, it has to be as an actual kid, not some 6' 2" bodybuilder who's supposed to be 16 years old. He should be meanly sarcastic and barely controllable, but just as psychopathically dedicated to fighting crime as Batman.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:From reading what Nolan has said though, I do feel he has at least another, maybe two good Batman films in him. The only danger would be if he decides to break Batman out of this 'younger Batman' phase and bring Robin into the mix. He has been quoted as saying he doesn't see Robin coming in for a few films yet, so its not as clear cut as him saying he'll never do him.

Add onto that that Bale has said he wouldn't do one if they wanted to shoehorn in Robin and the odds of Robin being in any time soon is very slim.

I suppose they could do Reaper to show an extreme form of Batman and to emphasize the rise vigilantes and the importance of the lines that the Batman will not cross. Mad Hatter, The Ventriloquist, and the Holiday Killer are possibilities. They could have Mr. Zsasz make a brief appearance (he was in Batman Begins after all) like the Scarecrow in Dark Knight. I imagine the main will be The Riddler though. He makes a good contrast to The Joker. The Riddler is all about cold precision and control whereas the Joker is, well, not. I do worry though it would end up being like Saw where the Riddler would have people solving riddles and those who can't solve it would die. There has to be some gravitas and he would have to seem a serious threat and after the Joker that is quite an act to follow.

Orkeosaurus wrote:How many people knew who Scarecrow was before Batman Begins? Bane was known way better than Ra's al Ghul was. Batman Begins was still a huge success. Besides, this wouldn't be the focus of the movie.

Goyer is on record as saying people shouldn't necessarily expect the next villain(s) to be the famous, obvious ones, and pointed to their use of Scarecrow in BB. Having said that, Bane is a cartoony villain, IMO. A giant weaponless bodybuilder is hardly a credible threat in the universe they've set up.

The next villains will be whoever they think can fit into the theme they choose and story they want to tell. I think it was a huge mistake to kill off Two-Face...IMO the natural step in the next film was for Two-Face to rally the remnants of the Gotham underworld under him. And that might have worked well within a "redemption" storyline, now that Batman is being hunted by police. I think Catwoman, although an "obvious" choice, would do quite nicely in the Nolan universe in her purest form...a jewel thief who operates in a grey area, morally speaking.

I think we probably have to look to the Loeb/Sale stuff for a clue. Seems like that's the Nolans' and Goyer's bible.

Have you read Bane's origin?
He's far more than a weaponless body builder.
Seriously.
Check out Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall and come back to me.
(Though I think it is too early to bring in Bane.)
I'll say again, Nolan should feel free to introduce his own characters. Harley Quinn and Bullock were only introduced as part of Batman the Animated Series AFAIK so it's not like we don't have a precident.

Scarecrow actually originated as a Marvel property... somewhere in the late 60s-early 70s, Marvel and DC did a number of character "properties" swaps... i forget who Marvel got from DC in return for Scarecrow, but i do know that it was a villainous type person.

Da Boss wrote:Have you read Bane's origin?
He's far more than a weaponless body builder.
Seriously.
Check out Vengeance of Bane and Knightfall and come back to me.

I remember Knightfall. But we're talking about translating the comic book characters into the *realistic* universe Nolan created. Bane translated just wouldn't be interesting enough or a credible threat, IMO. Nolan's not going to make anyone truly superhumanly strong, and without that, he'd be a weaponless, smart bodybuilder who (realistically) would be taken apart by Nolan's Batman. Maybe he'd work as a lackey (ironically) a la the bastardization of the character in the Schumacher film. Can't see him as any kind of main villain, though. Ultimately, I think the character is just too comic-booky to the core.

Again, Nolan has already used non-existant drugs (mainly in Batman Begins) in the series, so why not introduce a steroid-type drug for the purpose of creating Bane? Like I said, there could be plenty of interesting plot twists thrown into this, such as Wayne Enterprises being responsible for creating the drug (and thus being responsible for turning Bane into somewhat of a freak). I'm sure that if the Joker could nearly take down Batman in a fist fight (cheap tricks aside), then Bane would be more than evenly matched for Batman's ninjitsu. Especially if he stayed true to the "soldier" archetype and was trained in CQC.

Change the ridiculous costume and you get rid of a lot of the "comic-book" persona. Sure, a drug in Nolan's world couldn't exactly be the equivalent of Venom, since that would be a little ridiculous, but a superior steroid would actually give Bane some advantage over Batman, and would lead to more credibility.

Of course, I agree with Bane not being the main Villain. He's just too obscure, and his archetype is just too generic to really suit a main role like that. The reason I cite Michael Clarke Duncan (despite him being the Kingpin, even though I'm fairly sure that doesn't legally bind him from being in a DC movie) is because if they used anyone from WWE or anything like that to fill the role of Bane (which I could easily see them doing), I would lose all respect for the series.

But, all in all, I think Bane and the Riddler would make for an interesting combination, with the Riddler at the forefront as the more popular villain. Perhaps the Penguin could suit to fill the role of the requisite mob boss (as it seems like they've needed one in every movie), perhaps taking control of the Falcone crime syndicate with his vast sums of money or some such thing. But make the Penguin a less prominent role, and perhaps don't allude to his name all too often. At least keep him around for a while.

EDIT: And, yes, Zsaz has already made a bit of a cameo appearance in Batman Begins, but they made him seem like nothing more than a common thug. Maybe he could fill a small role, but I couldn't see him doing much.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I can on one hand see where you are coming from Frazzled, but on the other as a big Batman fan I'd love to see them keep going. As long as they don't de-evolve into the horror show that was 'Batman and Robin' then I'd be eager to watch it.

Thing is, the problem Batman and Robin made (and really, Batman Forever before that) was that they started with the casting and assumed that would be enough. Which is what a lot of people in this thread have done.

The thing is, no matter how well cast a Riddler or other character might be, how can he be anywhere near as engaging a villain as the Joker was? Some, like the Penguin, don't really have anything interesting for them once you strip away their comic books elements, while most others don't seem very scary in comparison to the Joker. It's a tough question to answer.

Chrysaor 686 wrote
The reason I cite Michael Clarke Duncan (despite him being the Kingpin, even though I'm fairly sure that doesn't legally bind him from being in a DC movie) is because if they used anyone from WWE or anything like that to fill the role of Bane (which I could easily see them doing), I would lose all respect for the series.

The gyu who played Cyclops (forgot the name) was in Superman Returns. Then again, Cyclops got killed 3 minutes into the third movie

i did have a thought today on this subject at work.... in regards to catwooman.. saw that one of the previous actresses of her had passed away this past year, and how this particular female had a history in dancing.

now, we all know that Cat Woman has a thing for batman, that she is graceful and sexy, and many other things... and i had the thought that someone LIKE lucy liu, or another asian super hottie could potentially fill this role, as most of the time i've seen, the super hot asian women actresses pull all of this off very well... not to mention how they look in black vinyl/pleather

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Scarecrow actually originated as a Marvel property... somewhere in the late 60s-early 70s, Marvel and DC did a number of character "properties" swaps... i forget who Marvel got from DC in return for Scarecrow, but i do know that it was a villainous type person.

You sure about this ? I always thought this was a bit of an urban myth. Dcand Marvel both have characters called Scarecrow ( Marvel in fact had 2 at one point if memory serves, 1 of which used to fight Ghost Rider a lot. I have a team up with him and captain America somewhere or other), and in fact they were merged during one of the Amalgam stories.

I was just looking back at Batman and Robin, and saw their plans for what would have been the 5th batman movie. It seems they were going to feature Harley Quinn as Joker's daughter, an independent villain. This might actually be an interesting twist to toss in for the next batman film. We know it has the Riddler, an amateur criminal. He needs an evil conscience, like the daughter of the most unhinged criminal in Gotham. She might even be able to convince Riddler that he was on the side of good for trying to trap a terrible criminal like Batman. It may or may not work, but it sure would be fun to watch.

Trouble is, the Joker would not be old enough to have Fathered a grown Child....

reds8n wrote:

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Scarecrow actually originated as a Marvel property... somewhere in the late 60s-early 70s, Marvel and DC did a number of character "properties" swaps... i forget who Marvel got from DC in return for Scarecrow, but i do know that it was a villainous type person.

You sure about this ? I always thought this was a bit of an urban myth. Dcand Marvel both have characters called Scarecrow ( Marvel in fact had 2 at one point if memory serves, 1 of which used to fight Ghost Rider a lot. I have a team up with him and captain America somewhere or other), and in fact they were merged during one of the Amalgam stories.

i dont remember which issue was shown to me, but a gentleman in the local comic shop (the one i frequented before being deployed to iraq) showed me proof that scarecrow was originally a marvel property... if theres more than one scarecrow, then the one i saw strongly resembled the one in the batman cartoon series (with red sweater and rag head-covering...similar to the movie mask)..on top of that the shop owner (a marvel fan, like myself) looked at me as if i had an extra set of male genitalia growing out of my forehead when i even asked about who had scarecrow first.

at any rate, we all know what 95% of Marvel superheroes would do to batman

Batman has defeated Superman, White Martians, and Predator. I'm sure he could take Spider-man. He'll have a plan, he always does.

Edit: Scarecrow's first appearance was in 1941 and his creation is credited to Bob Kane and Bill Finger.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:at any rate, we all know what 95% of Marvel superheroes would do to batman

Lose heavily I guess. He took Bullseye out with 1 punch, beat up Captain America, and knocked out the Hulk.

From memory Spider man called him "Sir" when they met.... just as well he wasn't a GW employee perhaps but that's a digression.

To my knowledge apart from some mutual BS about the moniker "Captain Marvel" Dc and Marvel have never traded characters etc at all. The exception again coming during/with Amalgam I guess.

I think your local comic book guy was either "sadly in error" or just out and out lying/trying to impress.

Been thinking on this and based on the Dark knight ending I think I figured what they're gonna do.

The next Villian doesn't have to be an all invasive thoroughly integral part of every aspect of the film.

Batmans now a criminal as far as Gotham is concerned. The story is going to be more aboput how he fights on, caught between the criminal world and law enforcement. How he operates behind the scenes and the increasing difficulty of maintaining his secret. How Dark is he? How many assets (people)does he use up in his quest?

I could even see them playing with bringing in the special squad designed to take Batman down.

Just a thought

focusedfire wrote:I could even see them playing with bringing in the special squad designed to take Batman down.

Just a thought

They've done it before in the comics. This is sort of why I was thinking they could perhaps do the Suicide Squad, I mean Give-Back Program. Gotham Police request aide in hunting down Batman, Waller sends a few of her pet minor villains in to hunt him down. No major villains(except perhaps Waller), just 3-4 minor villains(Dead Shot, Merlyn[the archer, not the magician, once took a contract on Batman's life in the comics], a few more techies/non-metas). Could be interesting.

Tri wrote:Dent could still be alive (knocked out) ... i mean batman also fell from that hight and he was able to run away ok

What if Dent still is alive?,I know Gordan is seen giving a eulogy for Dent at the end of Dark Knight,but perhaps...just perhaps it was a cover up to preserve Dents' image to the people of Gotham. .
This way Two Face could be truly allowed to develope further as a character (wich I did'nt feel he did in Dark Knight).
Aside from this I still feel Riddler (Twisted/Evil ala Zodiac) would be interesting.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Trouble is, the Joker would not be old enough to have Fathered a grown Child....

Who can tell how old the Joker is? And anyway, it's easy enough to move the timeline forward between films.

BTW, I just watched Dark Knight for the first time tonight (I know...), and I was very pleasantly surprised. I didn't think any film could live up to that level of hype, but wow, I loved it. Add me to the people clamouring for a posthumous oscar for Ledger.

Nolan himself has said that Dent is dead. There will not be a revival of two-face.

On another note I think that his character was about as developed as it was going to get. The whole idea behind this two-face was fairness and revenge. After he let "fate" decide who should live and die among those he thought murdered Rachel he would have nothing left.

Deathstroke

Maybe DC could use this opportunity to launch simultaneously with the movie a new Batman Villian.

I think expanding on the "batman is a criminal" idea is the best way to go forward. The antagonist could be a policeman who fights crime...properly! It would make for an interesting film in many ways.

I think expanding on the "batman is a criminal" idea is the best way to go forward. The antagonist could be a policeman who fights crime...properly! It would make for an interesting film in many ways.

Lock-Up