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Sustained fire dice were fun, too.

The vehicle rules were fun, too.

Vehicle modification rules and heavy flamers.

Turn 1 leman russes rush into eldar, fire their multiple heavy flamers, survivors are on fire.
(on fire means only thing you can do is stop and drop and hope flames go out)

Turn 1b until end of game Seeing a eldar aspect warrior army burn like candles occasionally rekindling the fire with imperial guarsdmen
if one manages to put it out before getting killed.

Skimmed this thread, but I miss percentages instead of FOCs, I miss assault troops all with tehir own weapon combos, I miss saving throw and to-hit modifiers, I miss tanks being able to shoot different things, I miss warp cards, I miss silly orks, and I miss a movement stat.

One word... EVERYTHING! But only for nostalgic reasons. I love 5th edition.

I miss:
-The freedom to build the army I want, instead of being straightjacketed by a FOC.
-The realisation that a game is played for fun, both from the players and GW itself. People take if far to serious these days.
-Fair, sportsmanlike behaviour coming naturally to players instead of being enforced by the rules
-In extension of the above: players considering the other party's enjoyment as much as their own.
-The detail and possibilities in the rules, the lack of abstraction.
-individual troopers being important, instead of being just another "wound counter" for the squad as a whole.
-only needing 1500 points of army in order to have 2+ hours of fun.
-not everyone thinking that "bigger is better". It was a SKIRMISH game for a reason....

But what I miss the most is:
OTHER PEOPLE TO PLAY 2nd edition with!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Not much. I regard it as a not-fun, unplayable mess.

Agreed 110%.
About all I really miss about 2nd is Necromunda, the system where the 2nd ed. rules actually worked well.

2nd ed. was garbage. Granted, I think they swung the nerf pendulum too far the other way with 5th, but I NEVER want to see another 2nd ed. game.



Ghidorah

#1 thing I miss:

- template / marker phase spending several minutes randomly moving stuff around and processing carryover effects

AWESOME!


And overwatch... Nothing like a a couple shooty armies to make for a quick game that ends in a Draw, as nobody dares to break cover.

Platuan4th wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Something that I miss about 2nd ed was more detailed psychology, leadership, and morale rules. Granted, it made fearlessness even more of a benefit than it is now (anyone who thinks otherwise is on drugs that harm their brain) I thought that greater daemons and Hive Tyrants that caused Terror was a lot of fun.

You could, y'know, play Fantasy...

Most "competitive" Fantasy armies make every effort to find ways to ignore Psychology and Break tests, so you're really be playing a wierd variant if you were to play a WFB army that actually had to deal with Psychology and Break tests. You'd also lose a lot.

I miss being undefeated with my chaos.
Really, I miss:

(Chaos) dreadnoughts that actually lived to kill things

Sustain fire dice

Anti-plant missiles (would be great in 5th: i'm going to shoot these missile at your squad in the woods, but don't worry, they won't hurt you, but just wait till next turn!)

Frag grenades that could kill things (in real life, a grenade is an insane killing weapon, and in the reserves, we treated getting just one, like they did in monty python's holy grail)

Powerfists that didn't strike last.

When there was only CHAOS, not 2 watered down codexs that should just be one.

When orks had flavor (tastes like fungus)

To Hit modifiers

Secret missions (Why didn't we just warn Hitler about D-Day, that would have been more fair? Also, advance notice about Pearl Harbor would have been nice, thanks Japan! DUH!!!!the enemy can't stop what they don't know is coming)

Strategy cards

Secret deployment (although sometimes this was hard)

Heh, I once remeber flicking through the Tyranid codex and realising that Tyranid Cults could field whole armies of Hybrid Acolytes, each one armed with a hvy bolter, for a mere 24 pts each. Considering that tactical marines were 30 pts, it was just silly.
The only thing the 2nd ed ruels were good for were the Necromunda type games with a dozen individual models per side. And speaking of Necromunda, I loved the idea of a Scavvy gang consisting entirely of clubwielding gangers. You could just overrun your "hi-tech" opponents with a wall of bodies. The only problem was feeding the gang between fights, so you'd just eat the most wounded of your gangers (or a prisoner if you happened to get one) instead of paying for food.

Genestealer Cults were are broken as anything. I once fielded one that had multiple single Brood Brother HW teams - about 15 of them - and then squads of Genestealers riding in Land Raiders.

So broken, but so much fun, especially when you consider that there was a Genestealer Cult Army List. Nothing like that will ever exist in 40K beyond DD-Pattern 'Counts As' armies.

Reecius wrote:Same with space wolves! Remember the way cyclone missle launchers could be? Wolf guard could all take them and an assault cannon, it was slowed.

I was a young lad when 2nd was still the rules but I still played it with my older brother. I DO remember that Space Wolves were just retardedly tuff.
OH and I remember the psychic was pretty cool. Like a magic the gathering card game tossed in there. Some of those spells were insane!

Actually, I would like to see Psychics brought back into 40k more.

Look at how Fantasy Magic now works. Magic Missiles, Buffs and Debuffs. Nowhere near as destructive as it used to be.

I miss the Squats the most, I think. Looking back they're not as cool as what came after, but I loved them as a kid. I also loved all the wacky, crazy varied wargear.

Janthkin wrote:Definitely the vehicle rules. You know, when vehicles could move faster than an infantry could run in a turn.

Don't forget they could also run over and kill infantry, they also did more that light a smoke bomb and sparkler when destroyed. I still remember having a Leman Russ blow up and tumble through a combat killing 13 or 14 models and kamikaze eldar jetbikes. It was a beautiful thing.

Outside of that I miss my Orks, I miss the crazy Daemon characters like Doombreed and Foulspawn, I miss layered saves, I miss the different damage dice for heavy weapons, and all the modifiers that they threw out for 3rd edition.

Were Doombreed and Foulspawn the demon princes with stats above 10? Foulspawn was the giant toad-like chaos spawn who was constantly degenerating but could eat enemies to gain more wounds...awesomesauce.

Da Boss wrote:Were Doombreed and Foulspawn the demon princes with stats above 10? Foulspawn was the giant toad-like chaos spawn who was constantly degenerating but could eat enemies to gain more wounds...awesomesauce.

Yeah Doombreed was Ld 12 and Foulspawn was a giant spawn who would catch models like a frog with his tongue and eat them to add to his wounds. Now days it is Character X has generic Special Ability A C and D with generic special weapon. I also remeber Kharn the Betrayer beasting anything in combat compared to his current rules..

Funny how most of the things we remember loving about 2nd ed are the very things the detractors loathe about it...

I feel that 3-5th has taken a lot of the character out of the game and that the fluff provided has been watered down and trimmed significantly. I love reading my 2nd ed codeci for the insanely high word count compared to the more recent books.

Admittedly, the art in the recent books has been considerably better - some of the art in the 2nd ed eldar books make them look more like chaos spawn than alien beings of nobility and fierce emotion.

It's because GW went public. It's all about money now rather than the fans. A pisswater ruleset means more people will play it because it's easier to learn. Leaner Codex's for the same price mean more profit for less work.

As for the art, well I suppose they had to spend money on SOMETHING to shut us up.

yeah I need to dust of the second edition stuff and play a few games so i can see how it compares.

I didn't play 2nd edition, but my cousin had all the books and I saw his uncle play a couple games with them.

I do enjoy the colorful and fun Eldar and comical Orks from 2nd edition. Now if only they made the Tau more clearly good guys. Or at least the Sensei and presence of hope.

The Foot Of Gork psychic power and template that was shaped like a foot.

Shokk Attak Gun that used snotling bases.

Stacking 20+ orks on a battlewagon, with any that fell off being dealt damage.

A grot that took out a Terminator. Even with a 3+ on 2d6 save.

Dropping a Vortex Grenade on an Avatar with Kommandos on turn 1

Hi all.
Has any one mentioned movment rates yet?

The M stat? The distance in inches a model may move up to in a Phase.

I belive the values were , 3,4,5,7,8,12.(Half movement , rounding up, when moving through difficult terrain.)

Of course , it much easier now with movement rates of , D6, 6, 6+D6, 2d6 pick highest, 3D6 pick highest,12,18.And of course the 6 Universal Special rules that effect movment . (WTF)

So GW 'simplified' movment by adding more movment rates and 6 USRs.

And the only reason GW incresed the base movement rate from 4 to 6 was to allow them to completley remove 'to hit modifiers'.(To compensate for the increase in shooting effectivness.)
2nd ed every weapon has a different to hit mod, that WAS OTT.

However a standard set of to hit mods similar to WH would have made more sense IMO.(+1 Large target, -1 light cover , -2 heavy cover, etc.)
Maybe VERY specialised weapons like sniper rifles could have extra to hit mods.( +2 to hit at over half range , -1 to hit under half range.)

Dont get me wrong I like the concept of the current 40k game .I liked the concept of 2nd ed 40k.
I just hate the comparative lack luster way the rules were implemented across all editions.

Ooops I am wandering OT.

I miss movment rates and modifiers, (that made sense.)

TTFN
Lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:Has any one mentioned movment rates yet?

This is just GW making CC up to par with shooting.

But it's amazing the steps GW had to take to make this possible:
- reduced shooting ranges
- NO Overwatch
- NO Parries
- M6 across the board
- chargers gain +1A
- Fleet
- all models fight
- all models within also 2" fight
- Run

Anyone care to translate his post for me from DD-speak into "Logic"?

HI H.M.B.C.
I think DD was just adding to the list of things that were thrown out of 40k from 2nd to 3rd ed.(To try to make 30 year old Napolonic game mechanics work with modern type units. )

Logic has VERY little to do with the development of 40k! (IMO.)

RT was basicaly WH 3rd ed rules.(So WH players could cross over easily and be inspired to by Citadels Sci- Fi range of minatures,)2nd ed was a 'tidy up' of the RT rules to allow slightly bigger games.

WH rules were developed for massed troop formations mainly armed with close combat weapons , with limited ranged support.Basic game play is about manouvering to get the best close combat matchups.

The emphasis on close combat was not comprimised by the larger amount of space between units, (and to hit mods,) in RT and 2nd ed.

3rd ed upped the model count quite conciderably. This reduced the space between units and increaced the coverage and effectiness of ranged weapons.

As the WH based rules are squarley based on close combat, shooting became comparativley overpowered.(40k 3rd ed became a target rich environment.)

Most game developers would adopt a completley NEW set of game mechanics and rules to reflect the brand new type of game play.(Like Andy Chamers wanted to.)

Unfortunatley GW PLC is NOT a games company any more, so we got the concept of makling taking a knife to a gun fight the prefered option in later editions of 40K.

This was achived by the comprehensive list of changes DD posted.
I hope that explains things a bit better,and DD is not upset by me attempting to explain things ...

Sorry to deriail the thread a bit,

TTFN
Lanrak.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Anyone care to translate his post for me from DD-speak into "Logic"?

Stuff was changed from being a comparatively realistic game where shooting beats the gak out of CC to where they are "equal." Because, man, wouldn't it have been SO COOL if in WW1 guns weren't as effective and people raided trenches all the time like they do in 40k?

Making "bzzzzzzriiiiipaaaargh!" noises is more grimdark than making "pewpew!" noises.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Most "competitive" Fantasy armies make every effort to find ways to ignore Psychology and Break tests, so you're really be playing a wierd variant if you were to play a WFB army that actually had to deal with Psychology and Break tests. You'd also lose a lot.

I'm used to a metagame of Elves, Empire, Goblins, and Dwarves. The Vampire Counts player sold off his army and bought Ogres because he found the Vampire Counts boring to play. Baton Rouge is an interesting place to play since there's almost no Fantasy tournaments, so they're not very competitive players.

One of our Empire players took 4th in the Adepticon Fantasy Championships in 2008, though.

displacement fields? the bouncing bubble fields