Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

yeah,
Sorry didn't want to read the massive guard post, but i was wondering...
What's happened to guard to help them out in Kill Point games?

Panic...

They can lose 50 Guardmen as a single KP, instead of 10 at a time for 1 KP each.

Panic wrote:yeah,
Sorry didn't want to read the massive guard post, but i was wondering...
What's happened to guard to help them out in Kill Point games?

Panic...

They can reverse combat tactics into huge mobs of 1 kp.

Goliath wrote:PASK?

huh

Knight Commander Pask. He's an upgrade for Leman Russes of any variant. He provides his Leman Russ with BS 4, and the ability to re-roll failed rolls to wound against Monstrous Creatures, or add +1 to the Armour Pen roll against vehicles.

Panic wrote:yeah,
Sorry didn't want to read the massive guard post, but i was wondering...
What's happened to guard to help them out in Kill Point games?

Panic...

Ahem...

Guard Infantry squads purchased as part of a Platoon can combine with other Infantry squads of the same platoon. Any number of 10-man squads may be combined with other 10-man squads, as you see fit. An Infantry Platoon with 4 Infantry Squads, for instance, could:

-Not combine, and stay as 4 separate 10-man squads, worth 4 Kill Points.
-Combine into either 2 20-man squads, or 1 10, and 1 30-man squads, worth a total of 2 Kill Points.
-Combine into 1 massive 40-man squad. Worth only 1 Kill Point.

Note, that this doesn't work for Special Weapons squads, Conscript squads, or Heavy Weapon squads, or Platoon Command Squads, despite the fact that they are members of the same platoon.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the Cerberus*. Of the Nerfhound variants its the one that sticks out as a viable unit. Plus I like the idea of the Melta-Cannon. It just sounds cool.

*I refuse to call it by its real name because its real name is stupid.

I like Devil Dog as a name. Teufelhunden and all that. Ooh-rah!

What boggles my mind is that a techpriest engineseer can take melta bombs but storm toopers can't. Hell even sgt's can take meltabombs. According to the fluff they're raised from birth to be super badass elite soldiers but they're statline is the same as vets. Somehow it seems vets are the new storm troopers.

Crablezworth wrote:What boggles my mind is that a techpriest engineseer can take melta bombs but storm toopers can't. Hell even sgt's can take meltabombs. According to the fluff they're raised from birth to be super badass elite soldiers but they're statline is the same as vets. Somehow it seems vets are the new storm troopers.

I doubt it was done on purpose. My guess is that Arby simply forgot.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt it was done on purpose. My guess is that Arby simply forgot.

There's a lot of wargear he 'forgot'. They have two melee attacks though so I guess that makes them worth 16 points.

George Spiggott wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I doubt it was done on purpose. My guess is that Arby simply forgot.

There's a lot of wargear he 'forgot'. They have two melee attacks though so I guess that makes them worth 16 points.

nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

He's probably referring to the fact that they have both pistol + ccw for a bonus attack.

Crablezworth wrote:nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

Not unless I'm misreading the text or the rules. Stormtroopers all come with HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW, that's two attacks each and three for the sergeant.

They all have Dual CCW.

George Spiggott wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

Not unless I'm misreading the text or the rules. Stormtroopers all come with HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW, that's two attacks each and three for the sergeant.

that's worth a 6pt bump on S3 models....

Polonius wrote:

George Spiggott wrote:

Crablezworth wrote:nahhh they only have one, the sgt has 2.

Not unless I'm misreading the text or the rules. Stormtroopers all come with HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW, that's two attacks each and three for the sergeant.

that's worth a 6pt bump on S3 models....

With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

sourclams wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

Actually its not a penalty to the leadership check it is a penalty to Leadership

"for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit..."

beardy wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

Actually its not a penalty to the leadership check it is a penalty to Leadership

"for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit..."

Yes, which means that the leadership generated by the mob number is reduced. Its a modifier, it doesn't state that their leaderships value is now X it states that for the remainder of the turn their leadership value is reduced. What's important is which effect comes first and last. It'll need to be FAQ'd.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, which means that the leadership generated by the mob number is reduced. Its a modifier, it doesn't state that their leaderships value is now X it states that for the remainder of the turn their leadership value is reduced. What's important is which effect comes first and last. It'll need to be FAQ'd.

Perhaps I'm being cynical but this means it won't be.

Q: Hey, how do Mob Rule and Weaken Resolve interact?

A: The heck with these rules. Remember to have fun when playing!

ShumaGorath wrote:

beardy wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:

JB wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

No just a rerollable LD 10 as far as I know. Their leadership is actually their big weakness.

Um that's a joke right? Cause rerollable Ld10 + mob roll is pretty damn good.

They would be a maximum of LD9 by the time they have to take a morale check for 25% casualties though that takes quite a bit of shooting. On the plus side, a 8 model Psyker Battle Squad would drop that LD down to 2. Even with the Bosspole granting the re-roll in exchange for a wound, the Nobz will probably fall back.

Dropping their Ld to 2 won't matter, they'll just use the mob count instead.

The weaken resolve ability is a penalty to the leadership roll. It does not set leadership to some number, which could then be overridden by having an ability that let you use a different number to roll leadership.

A 9-bike mob can use Ld9, however if weakened by an 8 strong psyker squad, they're Ld9-8=1 (succeed on double ones).

Actually its not a penalty to the leadership check it is a penalty to Leadership

"for the remainder of the turn the enemy unit's leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit..."

Yes, which means that the leadership generated by the mob number is reduced. Its a modifier, it doesn't state that their leaderships value is now X it states that for the remainder of the turn their leadership value is reduced. What's important is which effect comes first and last. It'll need to be FAQ'd.

M-M-M-M-MULTI-QUOTE

Vladsimpaler wrote:Perhaps I'm being cynical but this means it won't be.

Q: Hey, how do Mob Rule and Weaken Resolve interact?

A: The heck with these rules. Remember to have fun when playing!

I think both sides of the argument are correct.

Weaken Resolve will bring an Ork unit's Ld right down, but that doesn't change their Fearless status because they still have (assuming they have) 11+ models. An Ld1 unit can still be Fearless.

Exactly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Perhaps I'm being cynical but this means it won't be.

Q: Hey, how do Mob Rule and Weaken Resolve interact?

A: The heck with these rules. Remember to have fun when playing!

I think both sides of the argument are correct.

Weaken Resolve will bring an Ork unit's Ld right down, but that doesn't change their Fearless status because they still have (assuming they have) 11+ models. An Ld1 unit can still be Fearless.

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

ShumaGorath wrote:With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

Good enough to know an overcosted unit when I see one. The problem is that they're not very good and are expensive and fragile. They can't take enough meltas to really guarantee a dead Landraider, they can't hold up in combat against anything scarier than Guardians, they still cough up a kill point, they can't hold objectives, and their gun is really only optimized against MEQs, which the IG simply don't have a hard time killing.

They aren't horrible, they're just overcosted and underpowered. They compete with psychic choirs for the elites slot, and Veterans can accomplish 80% of what Stormtroopers can for half the price, and are better when you need it.

Every codex includes a unit that is bewilderingly overcosted (SM venerable dreadnoughts, Chaos furies, Possessed, Flash Gitz, Swooping Hawks). It's a tradition. Those units aren't unusable, and can be a lot of fun in casual play, but are unfortunately just a weak point in any serious list.

ShumaGorath wrote:

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

Why waste pie on them, 2 Punishers will handle any mob. Make models take saves, 20 shots will kill any armor save.

InquisitorFabius wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

Why waste pie on them, 2 Punishers will handle any mob. Make models take saves, 20 shots will kill any armor save.

40 shots. 20 hits. 10 wounds. ~6 saves. ~2 FNP saves. Congratulations, your two punishers just caused two wounds.

ShumaGorath wrote:With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

I'g good enough to win more than I lose, and the as I see it, the problem with 16-pt Stormies is that they aren't hyper-focused Aspect Warriors in an army of Aspect Warriors. They're over-geared, overpriced, easily-killed do-it-all dudes in an army of cheap dudes.

For roughly the same points as 5 non-Scoring full-kit Storms in a Chimera, I can take a Leman Russ with better armor and a better MEQ-killing gun. It's not a scalpel, but then again, the Guard has never been accused of being subtle.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:With the guns, missions, ballistic skill, and ability to be greatly enhanced with orders... Possibly. How good of a player are you? They certainly seem like a unit that won't do particularly welll unless treated like a scalpal.

I'g good enough to win more than I lose, and the as I see it, the problem with 16-pt Stormies is that they aren't hyper-focused Aspect Warriors in an army of Aspect Warriors. They're over-geared, overpriced, easily-killed do-it-all dudes in an army of cheap dudes.

For roughly the same points as 5 non-Scoring full-kit Storms in a Chimera, I can take a Leman Russ with better armor and a better MEQ-killing gun. It's not a scalpel, but then again, the Guard has never been accused of being subtle.

Hey, I agree with John! This almost never happens.

Best use I can see of Stormtroopers only happens in conjunction with other units. Pinning can become ridiculously easy with them, assuming your opponent can be pinned.

ShumaGorath wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

This mostly comes in due to it's effect on nob bikers though, which can't become fearless if I remember correctly (they max out at 10 models don't they?). Or in the very least you could drop a pie plate on them and take that fearless away (which can come after the choir goes if you want given the "remainder of the turn" status. I doubt people are going to use it much on generic boyz considering the amount of pie they will be laying down on them anyway.

Why waste pie on them, 2 Punishers will handle any mob. Make models take saves, 20 shots will kill any armor save.

40 shots. 20 hits. 10 wounds. ~6 saves. ~2 FNP saves. Congratulations, your two punishers just caused two wounds.

Assuming that your target has 4+ cover (because you pretty much have to make that assumption these days), even shooting at a regular mob:

58 S5 shots, 29 S5 hits, ~20 wounds, 10 saves. Congratulations...you just fired off 400 points worth of models, and killed what, 40 points of models? Not exactly anything to write home about.

I can see taking a five man squad with two meltas as a sort of desperation suicide squad. It's not that good, and it's still a KP, but since it can either deep strike or out flank or move through cover, it might suprise you. 100pts is pricy, but it might be worth it. Bigger squads just dont' seem to add much. AP3 is nice, but the 5 extra guys shooting will still only kill 2.2 marines outside of cover.

w00t!
My advance ordered codex and valkyrie just arrived!!