Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Frazzled - Mate, a well-placed dandelion can turn the tide of any conflict, as well you know.

Gwar! wrote:TBH, if you are in law enforcement, and you think the dude had a gun, you are more than entitled to say "STFU and Get on the Floor Now or I cap you". Especially in the US, where they KNOW the Police have guns (in the UK it's kind of a craps shoot), if they say "Get on the floor now or I cap you", you Get on the fething floor!

Could be Mexico where the actual phrase is
(dakka dakka dakka ) silence



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:@Frazzled - Mate, a well-placed dandelion can turn the tide of any conflict, as well you know.

Exactly. Why do you think it was called the War of the Roses? The two sides were evenly balanced and the conflict went on for years. Then someone pulled out the Dandelion, and it was history.

To keep this short...

Deadshane and Frazzled have it right on the money, so im not going to beat that dead horse.

Also what in the name of Fiddlers Green is so hard to wrap around the concept that he was hit 11 times by MULTIPLE COPS shooting at him? Do you honestly think each one is going to fire one shot at a time takeing turns until the perp cries uncle? Here is one cop on a range with a .40 Glock speed shooting. Now imagine 3 of them doing this at a armed suspect with pistols that have less kick.




I know how we can solve this problem.... Lets take away EVERYONES guns.... that will fix everything!



**EDIT**
Yeah cause guns never look like wallets.....

Gwar! wrote:Man even I know that people go spinning like crazy when hit by bullets, and my total experience with guns is learning about it from an ex UK Army Sniper while on a Field Trip to Belgium when I was 12.

Oh, and he passed a Grenade about for us to look at. Ahhh, good times.

Let me get this straight, a EX (as in no longer in) army guy was passing around a LIVE hand grenade to a group of underage kids while on a field trip?

I am shocked JP400. Your post has almost nothing to do with Dandelions...

Gah! Not the Dandelions! ANYTHING but the Dandelions!

It burns! It burns!

jp400 wrote:Also Gwar! Let me get this straight, a EX (as in no longer in) army guy was passing around a LIVE hand grenade to a group of underage kids while on a field trip?

I never said it was a Live grenade

You never said it was a training device either highspeed...

Gwar! wrote:

jp400 wrote:Also Gwar! Let me get this straight, a EX (as in no longer in) army guy was passing around a LIVE hand grenade to a group of underage kids while on a field trip?

I never said it was a Live grenade

Maybe it was, and he didn't like you. Just lucky that no one pulled the pin?

Albatross wrote: a statement which has no place in a civilised society IMO. I was saying that I prefer the UK's much maligned CCTV system to the style of law enforcement he espouses. thing... quote]

no such thing as civilised society bucko. This is the first thing they teach you in sociology classes. The fact is the guy was a moron, I mean in all honesty... would you pull a gun on a cop? CASE END POINT!!!!!!!!!

Kanluwen wrote:I think the funniest thing I've seen on Youtube are all the "Police v. Skateboarder" videos.

You know, the ones where they cut their cameras on AFTER they mouthed off to the officer, etc?
And then act like they're the victims?

as a former skateboarder I can tell you that police officers sometimes are that flying rodent gak crazy.

I never "mouth off" to anyone, even here on the internet i rarely poke fun at people without them knowing its in good jest.

but yet I have been harassed and assaulted by police officers for skateboarding. I was skating in the parking lot of a newly constructed strip mall that didnt have any stores in it yet, no traffic or anything. There were no "no skateboarding" signs, and no one ever asked us to leave, I had just fallen from failing miserably at a trick, and this cop on foot grabbed my arm (near the armpit) and lifted me up off the ground, brusing the inside of my arm. he proceeded to yell and scream at my friends and I and threatened to arrest all of us, we just kept quiet and left, but ill never forget that instance of abuse; being screamed at and bruised for no reason other than his assumption that skateboarding was not allowed.

Other than commit the crime of trespass of course, but yea thats harsh. Often cops will run scateboarders out of those areas to avoid potential vandalism. They will run anyone off hanging around in places under construction for that reason.

Look at it this way. At least you weren't holding a dandelion at the time.

Nearly 50% is an excellent hit rate FYI. Those boys had it together.

For them maybe
And to fire that many shots .... what a fething waste of lead

Demogerg wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think the funniest thing I've seen on Youtube are all the "Police v. Skateboarder" videos.

You know, the ones where they cut their cameras on AFTER they mouthed off to the officer, etc?
And then act like they're the victims?

as a former skateboarder I can tell you that police officers sometimes are that flying rodent gak crazy.

I never "mouth off" to anyone, even here on the internet i rarely poke fun at people without them knowing its in good jest.

but yet I have been harassed and assaulted by police officers for skateboarding. I was skating in the parking lot of a newly constructed strip mall that didnt have any stores in it yet, no traffic or anything. There were no "no skateboarding" signs, and no one ever asked us to leave, I had just fallen from failing miserably at a trick, and this cop on foot grabbed my arm (near the armpit) and lifted me up off the ground, brusing the inside of my arm. he proceeded to yell and scream at my friends and I and threatened to arrest all of us, we just kept quiet and left, but ill never forget that instance of abuse; being screamed at and bruised for no reason other than his assumption that skateboarding was not allowed.

But here's the rub:
They don't HAVE to post "No Skateboarding" signs if it's private property. It's private property, no matter what. The same general attitude is applied to construction sites, storefronts, and "public" areas that aren't intended for recreation(so far as how it is in Raleigh, at least).

The problem is that it's rarely enforced(again--here in Raleigh), and when it IS enforced--you get endless complaints from the skaters at the officers, and well...officers are people too. Eventually they'll get fed up with your garbage, and hey. You brought it on yourself in that case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I forgot. One of the biggest reasons they don't want you on those types of property is liability to the property management/owners. I lost track of the amount of kids who used to sneak onto the area around my old FLGS to skate and would constantly break/dislocate something.

Admittedly--it was 100% hilarious to watch.

Half the point of being a Sk8rboy is being a rebel, it's like Rock 'n' Roll.

Albatross wrote:

Albatross obviously knows NOTHING about gun battles.

That being said....

I am in law enforcement.

If I give you an instruction to lower your weapon and get on the ground, whether it be a gun, squirt gun, or dandelion, if you do anything but move in an unthreatening and compliant manner, you have just taken your own life in your hands.

I'm going home to my family tonight....period. People tend to forget that the police are just as much real people as the people that get shot. The police that stop and try to determine whether "that is a real gun or not" are the ones that wind up dead.

If a cop tells you to do something, comply. If he's in the wrong, sue the city later.

Drop that gun, squirt gun, or dandelion or I will shoot you in the face. I have the badge, do as I tell you. I'm not being a bully, I'm trying to keep order or get to the bottom of whatever is going on. As far as I'm concerned, its my life or yours.

Like I said, I'm going home tonight.

Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Wow. Way to not conform to white american stereotypes there, champ. How can people criticise the UK's so-called 'Big Brother' methods of law-enforcement, and prefer the above? That blows my mind. I would rather forfeit (some of) my privacy, than forfeit my life.
@Deadshane - I may not have been in a firefight, but as far as I'm concerned people who think the way you seem to don't deserve to hold the power of life and death over another human being.

Do you realize that I'm the one that keeps calling england a nanny censor state akin to what can be found in V for Vendetta, while at the same time I'm the American in this thread saying that this sounded like excessive use of force? It's not conflicting, england is some sort of 80's sci-fi dystopia and these guys shot too many bullets into the back of someone that was running away from them.

I for one think these guys should recieve medals and praise for doing their jobs.

A medal and praise for killing an 18 year old who had never fired a shot. What the feth is wrong with you? Solidarity and support for what was likely (at least it should have been) a difficult decision with likely remorse afterwards, but a fething gold star sticker by their names for killing a kid?

england is some sort of 80's sci-fi dystopia

Not from where I'm sitting. Have you been to the UK Shuma? Just interested to find out.
I never notice any CCTV cameras, but even if I did it wouldn't really bother me. If it helps catch/convict rapists, muggers and murderers, then I'm all for it - and it's not like the US is devoid of CCTV or anything.
If I had to choose between guns or cameras as a regular feature on our streets - I'm firmly in 'Team Camera'.

But I suppose this is a side-issue, really - I'd be more than happy to take this up via PM in order to discuss it further.

I'm against guns too, we can't have people killing themselves off before they're taken to the Ministry of Love.

ShumaGorath wrote:
A medal and praise for killing an 18 year old who had never fired a shot. What the feth is wrong with you? Solidarity and support for what was likely (at least it should have been) a difficult decision with likely remorse afterwards, but a fething gold star sticker by their names for killing a kid?

But if he would've fired a shot that would've made it ok?

Wait...

How about fired a shot and killed a uniformed officer, one with two kids and a wife? Yea, that would've been fair.

No, how about the punk kid shows an iota of intelligence (as an 18 year old able to be tried as an adult) and does EXACTLY what trained officers tell him what to do while pointing guns at him.

You do not make threatening moves at uniformed officers that are pointing weapons at you....obviously. These are men with families that dont plan on getting killed by some punk who thinks he's a 'gansta'.

I say to the boys in blue, "Good job"!

The kid pointed a 9mm at officers out doing their job in order to support their families. Any remorse these officers feel is sorrow for the kids stupidity in the first place, not guilt for killing him.

The kid committed suicide, if you feel sorry for him, do it because of that. Uniformed officers did their duty and did it well.

@Deadshane - I agree with you -
Pointing guns at armed officers = Death. No problem with that at all. But the wallet guy? That death could have been avoided - they went to trial, so it's not just me who thinks it. Plus his family won a civil case against NY state.

After a killing, there will ALWAYS be an investigation.

Yes I do think these guys diserve praise, and you know what he may have not gotten a shot off so to me that says the cops did a great job insuring the safety of th ecommunity. Because of this kid would pull a gun on cops what do you think he did to the locals hmmm. Ahhhh but to your hippie loving self the cops are evil, well you know what I have a ton of friends who are cops, and yes their is remorse after you kill somone that just makes you human, but they did their duty and the kid broke the law, and if he did get a shot off and kill a officer you would still say it was excessive mean time the officers family grows up without a father. Yes it is a part of the job, but it doesnt mean you wish it upon someone. IF you are getting harrassed for skateboarding THEN GO TO A SKATE PARK we have laws for a reason and nothing honestly pisses me off more when people blame the cops for them breaking the laws that we all know, but if you were in their shoes you would have done the same and dont say you wouldnt because I sure as know you would. Honestly im not sorry for this rant because I hate people like you and you know who you are who condemn others when you know damn well you would have done the same hipocrats!!!!!!!!!

Deadshane1 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
A medal and praise for killing an 18 year old who had never fired a shot. What the feth is wrong with you? Solidarity and support for what was likely (at least it should have been) a difficult decision with likely remorse afterwards, but a fething gold star sticker by their names for killing a kid?

But if he would've fired a shot that would've made it ok?

Wait...

How about fired a shot and killed a uniformed officer, one with two kids and a wife? Yea, that would've been fair.

No, how about the punk kid shows an iota of intelligence (as an 18 year old able to be tried as an adult) and does EXACTLY what trained officers tell him what to do while pointing guns at him.

You do not make threatening moves at uniformed officers that are pointing weapons at you....obviously. These are men with families that dont plan on getting killed by some punk who thinks he's a 'gansta'.

I say to the boys in blue, "Good job"!

The kid pointed a 9mm at officers out doing their job in order to support their families. Any remorse these officers feel is sorrow for the kids stupidity in the first place, not guilt for killing him.

The kid committed suicide, if you feel sorry for him, do it because of that. Uniformed officers did their duty and did it well.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I disagreed that commending an officer for killing a perp that wasn't even old enough to drink with a medal was the right thing to do. Because it's not. You don't give the police medals for killing people, you give them medals for going beyond the call of duty, for protecting and serving, not for putting an excessive number of bullets into the back of an 18 year old. I didn't say they did wrong, I said that they did something unworthy of loads of praise. They did their job, they didn't charge into a burning building to save a family, they didn't go under deep cover to bust up a drug ring. They shot a kid in the back until he died. You want to award medals for that gak? What they need is a paycheck and probably some counseling to deal with the fact that some kids not going to see his mother again because of what they did. If they're good cops they'll feel it but press on. If they're bad ones they'll crack or even worse they won't care at all.

Ahhhh but to your hippie loving self the cops are evil, well you know what I have a ton of friends who are cops, and yes their is remorse after you kill somone that just makes you human, but they did their duty and the kid broke the law, and if he did get a shot off and kill a officer you would still say it was excessive mean time the officers family grows up without a father. Yes it is a part of the job, but it doesnt mean you wish it upon someone.

I think I'm seeing a trend of people twisting my words so that they can cry for the plight of cops, as if it's something new. But hey, yeah, go ahead. Give people medals for putting someones son in the ground. I'll just concede that you must live in a wonderful world, totally untouched by death or mistakes. It's about all I can do on this forum without Fraz banning me again.

Not from where I'm sitting. Have you been to the UK Shuma? Just interested to find out.

I read 1984.

I never notice any CCTV cameras, but even if I did it wouldn't really bother me. If it helps catch/convict rapists, muggers and murderers, then I'm all for it - and it's not like the US is devoid of CCTV or anything.

It's not closed circuit television. It also doesn't help particularly much, one of the biggest failings of the program is the framelag (Only one every few seconds) and the poor resolution. They don't help much with convictions in the rare event that they actually manage to see a crime being committed at all.

Shuma,

Just because the coroner found entry wounds in the kids back does not mean he was shot from behind while trying to run away. If he is hit in a shoulder or arm his body will spin and twist meaning at some point his back is turned to the cops by no fault of his own.

The cops aren't trained to check their shots. They are trained to fire until the threat is neutralized. Unless the cop has Down's syndrome (in which case he's not a cop) he will fire off an entire clip in around 5-6 seconds. They are not going to fire a shot, wait 5 seconds to see if perp is still moving or dead and than fire another one.

Neutralizing a threat means it's not going to be moving (or the very least you'll have shot his gun hand so bad he can't squeeze the trigger, which is getting really lucky).

To make the perp look the victim Shuma is baffling. When you act toward an armed cop in a hostile manner you give up your right to live. End of story. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

As to the wallet story, again, it doesn't matter that it wasn't a gun. Police told him to freeze and he started reaching into his pocket. Cops aren't going to wait to make 100% certain that what you are reaching for isn't a gun, they will shoot and they are authorized to do so.

If you are running from a crime and you don't have a weapon and the cop tells you to kiss the pavement you DO NOT reach for a pocket or inside your jacket if you want to see your next birthday. End of.

Yes I live in a wonderful world of gum drops, and lollipop faries. I am a soldier and have been one for 9 years now. Most of that was active duty infantry where it was my job to do stuff like that. I am just standing up for my brothers in uniform from one service to another, believing in what they did. I can see where you say no medals and to a strong extent your right, but the fact is they didnt kill him the kid killed himself with his actions forcing their hands.

To make the perp look the victim Shuma is baffling. When you act toward an armed cop in a hostile manner you give up your right to live. End of story. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This is where I begin to wonder if you can actually read. I'm beginning to think that you just slap your hands on the keyboard while singing the birthday song and words just miraculously appear on the screen. Let's review what I've said, shall we?

They did their job,

If they're good cops they'll feel it but press on. If they're bad ones they'll crack or even worse they won't care at all.

Solidarity and support for what was likely (at least it should have been) a difficult decision with likely remorse afterwards,

And in my very first post!

I'm not advocating what he did, guy was looking to get shot,

---

As to the wallet story, again, it doesn't matter that it wasn't a gun. Police told him to freeze and he started reaching into his pocket. Cops aren't going to wait to make 100% certain that what you are reaching for isn't a gun, they will shoot and they are authorized to do so.

And so an innocent man had to die. Why is it so hard for you to say that "It was a mistake, but the cops are only human" rather than "THEY DID THEIR JOB GIVE THEM MEDALS."

If you are running from a crime and you don't have a weapon and the cop tells you to kiss the pavement you DO NOT reach for a pocket or inside your jacket if you want to see your next birthday. End of.

I'm glad you're willing to give up the right of people to live so that some joe in a suit doesn't have to see a guy reach for his pocket. I'm so glad we have you to champion the cops who kill for pockets and wallets. If you weren't around society would fall apart. And now for a more reasoned and thought out response.

Yes I live in a wonderful world of gum drops, and lollipop faries. I am a soldier and have been one for 9 years now. Most of that was active duty infantry where it was my job to do stuff like that. I am just standing up for my brothers in uniform from one service to another, believing in what they did. I can see where you say no medals and to a strong extent your right, but the fact is they didnt kill him the kid killed himself with his actions forcing their hands.

Which is exactly what I'm arguing. The unfortunate circumstances of the event. There was a time when this kind of death would be a cause for sadness, regret, and solidarity with both the police and the families of the dead. Half of what I've seen from this thread is "DUDE DESERVED TO DIE, GIVE THOSE COPS A MEDAL". Which is sickening to me. Thats not how you deal with a lawful killing. This isn't fething diehard, someone is dead. The level of immaturity here is startling.

ShumaGorath wrote:I read 1984.

The sad thing is, it isn't far off the truth now :(

I'm glad that you'd be so calm Shuma to wait until the guy withdrew his hand from his pocket, double checking to make sure it wasn't a gun and then if it was a gun hoping to get the shot off before he did.

You go right ahead and take your chances, most cops I know want to live to see their next Christmas and go home to family at the end of the day.

I'm sorry but if you pull a gun on a cop you deserve to die and I won't feel sorry for that person. I'm sure the cops feel remorse but we won't know unless they come out publicly to express how they feel and even if they didn't feel remorse they sure as hell aren't going to say to the press "I'm glad that kid died. I'm glad I got to shoot him".

Nice attack Shuma. One of your posts said you thought it was sick that he got shot 11 times, some in the back as he was running away (to which you have no proof he tried to run) and then you attack me personally by saying I can't read and then you quote a later post saying they did their job. Can you not make up your damned mind Shuma?

If you feel they were excessive than apparently they didn't do their job (as you quote this isn't Die Hard and you feel they acted in a Die Hard movie cop manner so obviously, using your logic they didn't do their job as it's not their job to empty 3 clips into the kid).

Nice attack Shuma. One of your posts said you thought it was sick that he got shot 11 times, some in the back as he was running away

Actually I said it was sick that you treat it like an action movie that you can draw entertainment from. I repeatedly said that they did their job, as they were supposed to do, and that while it seemed more than needed in terms of shots fired I didn't side with the kid.

Y'know what? I'm pretty sure you still don'tt understand my posts. Empchild got them pretty well, which means they are at least coherent. It's like you're debating one line that I posted three posts ago over and over again. So hey, you win. Gold star champ.