What will Tyranids do to the meta-game?

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**imweasel**

Shep wrote:JOTWW had about 2 months of actual nid killing effectiveness. Now it'll have more expensive MCs to target, MCs that will be padded with drop podding shadow of the warp.

As for what guns will get less popular, and what will get more popular, it is hard to say. Plasma guns look more enticing to put wounds on monstrous creatures, but meltaguns still stay attractive thatnks to their ability to ID warriors, raveners and zoanthropes.

As Sourclams has said, if you have a unit that 'should' be in a transport, it'll have to buy that transport... but I'll add the caveat that there are plenty of modern infantry units in competitive 40k that don't need to mech up. If you are a choppy marine with counter-attack and power fist (see grey hunter/wolf guard pack leader) then you should just take the charges, similarly to iconned CSM units and IG infantry blobs. Power weapons for sergeants and commissars seem mandatory now though.

All in all, No one i know has been able to decipher the rumors, and come up with an actual list concept. The codex looks to be majorly complex, to Cruddace's credit.

full on drop pod assault with aggressive units seems viable, hybrid drop pod lists also seem very doable. The nid troop choices all seem very viable and the troop FOC seems incredibly flexible (infiltrators, cheap mid-range horde, cheap CC specialists with poison, drop pod access) The real question is... what units are going to be supporting this solid troop suite.

I'm not so sure even grey hunters want to be outside of their transports. Unless it's cost prohibitive, shooty nids with some cc dropping in could be a serious concern for anyone.

But it's way to early to tell...

**doubled**

Way to early to tell, need to at least see the codex in my hands and play with some lists. I do think that most list will drop some of the single shot hi strength weapons to a lower strength weapon with a higher rate of fire. Also, if I heard right and the new Venomthrope gives a cover save, flamers will need to be taken in greater number. I see burna boys, skorcha's, hellhounds, That kinda thing. Tau I think are in trouble, not enough cover save ignoring templates outside of battlesuits.

**DarkHound**

doubled wrote:Tau I think are in trouble, not enough cover save ignoring templates outside of battlesuits.

Are you daft? Have you ever heard of a Markerlight?

**Lukus83**

I don't think it's too early anymore. We have a rough idea of what units can do. It's not perfect but we already know that hive guard are reasonably/very competitive (we know they fill a niche which was previously unfilled). There's a lot of other info on other units as well meaning we can plan rough lists...no points, just good combos.

**murdog**

Such as?

**Hulksmash**

I think people's style of holding objectives is going to have to change. Standard doctrine of a single troop holding rear area objectives just won't be possible with all the deployment goodness that is the new 'nids. Personally though until i see some point costs i'm gonna hold off on anything else on how it'll effect the meta-game. But I will say based on a lot of the rumored point costs that 4-5 MC's, 12-15 Mid-Bugs and 80+ Small bugs isn't out of the question of 1850-2k points. That's a lot of killing that needs doing.

**Lukus83**

Such as hordes using the venomthrope to gain a much needed cover save in the open.
Such as combining trygons and mawlocs to hit a target then engage said target in assault allowing the mawloc to hit again the next turn.
Such as multi-assaulting with hormies and warriors with boneswords to stop the gaunts getting tarpitted by any unit with a decent save.
Such as using lictors to co-ordinate a massive mycetic assault near your opponents deployment zone.

The list is endless. Some may be viable, some may not be...but we can start thinking about potential synergy.

**Therion**

I think the mech Space Wolves will be nearly perfect for taking on Nids. In 1850p against all comers I'd run Rune Priest with Chooser of Slain, JOTWW and the anti-biker/skimmer/deep striker tempest, three Dreadnoughts with MM and heavy flamers, six 5man Grey Hunter squads with flamers and las/plas Razorbacks, three Land Speeders Typhoons or MM/HF ones and three Predator Destructors. That's 27 heavy weapons and 12 special weapons. It's 15 vehicles.

There's no way any number of chaff like Gaunts or medium sized monsters is going to bother my 6 flamers, 3 heavy flamers, 3 autocannons, 9 heavy bolters, 6 frag missiles and 30 bp/ccw armed counter-charging Grey Hunters. I guess the small bugs should be tank shocked a couple times before flaming them so that they'll all die in one go. I also doubt that the now enormously expensive MC's will like the 6 lascannons, 6 tl plasma guns, 3 multi-meltas, 6 krak missiles and JOTWW either. Dreadnoughts can also have finish stuff off with their power fists. Additionally there's always the 24" bubble of anti-psychic power goodness from the runic weapon of the Rune Priest.

Like someone already said, if Nid drop poding would become the norm, adding mystics to lists like the one above would be no problem.

**Lukus83**

So tailoring your lists gets results...by which I mean the mystics. It's not complete tailoring but still...

Where we play it's kind of frowned upon to do that so we regularly build allcomers. We have a tau, nid, IG chaos, orks and Marine player. We also regularly switch opponents. This increases our "army awareness" and allows us to improve our lists accordingly.

**Therion**

Well like I said I doubt I would need mystics with the list above, but taking them is an available option.

**Lukus83**

I am actually very interested to see how it all pans out. Even with the abundance of rumours I'm sure there are some things that we haven't considered yet...and a dropped MC can probably withstand the fire power being targetted at it from a single unit.

**Lord Solar Plexus**

Then we better concentrate fire. It's not a new concept. There's already so much stuff that can get into one's face asap, some more won't shift the metagame much.

I think it is clear that infantry will have a hard time coping with a Tyranid Alpha strike. The question is, if they do get strong units to fill the AT niche, will mechanized forces really fare that much better? When the the spores rain down, you cannot drive away I imagine, and an MC usually needs to hit only once to cause serious damage against AV10.

Hollismason wrote:
Oh and Jaws of the World Wolf is kind of pointless from what I have read the big guys can get a " save versus psychic attack"

What kind of save? I'm pretty sure the big guys can get a save versus shooting, too. Doesn't mean it's pointless per se, seeing as it autokills even T6.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:I think the nids may make lists more flexible alltogether. Assuming the codex will be broken as feared it will contain several viable builds. Thus other armies will have to preper for everything.

But isn't that already the case? That in itself is not a change in the metagame.

**Lukus83**

The hive guard look like they will fill the AT niche very nicely, allowing the pod contents to cause some real havoc with the squishy insides of transports.

**Norbu the Destroyer**

I think there will be more Skulltaker. Not only for bugs but thunder wolves. May not be mouch of a concern to some people but there are a lot of demon players in my area.

**Hollismason**

The combo I like that people have been talking on other forums about is the Lictor Mawloc enjoy St6 ap 2 templates.

Lictors allow deepstriking units to not scatter

**Nurglitch**

Maybe that harkens back to the original Trygon in Epic: Space Marine where it could project a deadly wave of "bio-electricity" that would murder nearby units.

**40kenthusiast**

Also worth noting again that we don't know how mycetic spores will interact with mystics. The hope is that they are drop pods, but I wouldn't bet everything on it.

I mean, what if the rule that the bugs can't assault is part of the disembark rule from them? That would mean you wouldn't dare shoot them, lest you pop one and let them assault on their landing turn.

Can you shoot the Pod or the guy that gets out? Do you shoot before or after they disembark? What does popping a pod with mystics before the guys get out even do? It isn't a vehicle, it doesn't have wrecked/exploded.

GW has made bigger goofs before. I think the interaction of the Mystics and the Spores will be a fairly huge point.

**Flavius Infernus**

The shot that results from mystics spotting the deepstrikers doesn't happen until the unit "enters play." A drop pod isn't in play until it has landed on the tabletop, and the units on board don't enter play until they disembark; there aren't any rules in 40K for shooting at things floating around in the air.

IIRC the Daemonhunter FAQ says the shot can shoot the pod *or* the unit(s) that disembark, not both, but you can take the free shot at each/all units that disembark.

**CaptKaruthors**

Additionally, we don't know for sure if the Spore pods have the same rules of not mishaping when they land on units, etc. like SM drop pods do. Too early to tell.

40kenthusiast wrote:Also worth noting again that we don't know how mycetic spores will interact with mystics. The hope is that they are drop pods, but I wouldn't bet everything on it.

I mean, what if the rule that the bugs can't assault is part of the disembark rule from them? That would mean you wouldn't dare shoot them, lest you pop one and let them assault on their landing turn.

Can you shoot the Pod or the guy that gets out? Do you shoot before or after they disembark? What does popping a pod with mystics before the guys get out even do? It isn't a vehicle, it doesn't have wrecked/exploded.

GW has made bigger goofs before. I think the interaction of the Mystics and the Spores will be a fairly huge point.

**40kenthusiast**

Yeah, but that FAQ refers to Drop Pods, right? No reason to think they'll write a similar one for the spores.

In the absence of an FAQ the Mystic shot would come right after the Pod lands, before anything can disembark. It raises some issues, depending on how the rules for the Nids are written. Might very easily free them to assault. Further, it's unlikely that there are rules for damaging the bugs inside, given that in a normal game there's no way it could take fire before disembarking them.

**sirisaacnuton**

For that matter, even the concept of "disembarking" from them would be different. There aren't exactly any rules for disembarking from an infantry model.

On a complete side note, I sure would love to see new DH/WH Codexes just to finally end all the ally shenanigans.

**Nurglitch**

Alternately a mycetic spore could simply be an upgrade allowing a unit otherwise unable to Deep Strike to...Deep Strike!

**sirisaacnuton**

Maybe the Spore is DS'ed and then everyone rings it like the first model of the DS. Or maybe it's treated as part of the unit, though the rest can move away. Maybe it's entirely decorative (unlikely since it allegedly has a profile).

My guess will be it DS's, and then after its final position is determined, it simply says that the unit is placed so that all models are within 2" of the Spore. No reference to disembarking is made, or transporting, as it's not a vehicle. It's simply an option, as Nurglitch points out, that confers this abililty and adds one more model to the unit, one that gets left behind.

I also guess that most people will play it with Mystics exactly as though it's a drop pod, but the rules will be unclear as to the proper RAW way to do it, inviting arguments, there will be no GW FAQ about it, and the INAT FAQ will rule it working like Drop Pods unless it has a particularly odd wording.

**Tri**

Nurglitch wrote:Alternately a mycetic spore could simply be an upgrade allowing a unit otherwise unable to Deep Strike to...Deep Strike!

unlikely when it has a ....
STATLINE: WS:2 BS:2. T:5-6 W:3 A:3 S:6.
Weapon: 6" S:6 Assault 6

...well if bell of lost souls is to be believed any way. Love the fact it gets 3 Str6 attacks ... wonder about the LD ... got to be fearless, i can't see it running

**sourclams**

Likewise it's supposedly a Monstrous Creature. Could make for very interesting late-game objective clearing with Dreadnoughts and other walkers dying ignominous deaths as Mycetic Spores tear them apart.

**winterman**

Likewise it's supposedly a Monstrous Creature.

Yeah they could be a nice objective denial option being a S6 MC that reduces enemy I to 1.

I wonder how long until someone takes dinner plates sized spore pods to a tournament.

**Tri**

winterman wrote:
Likewise it's supposedly a Monstrous Creature.

Yeah they could be a nice objective denial option being a S6 MC that reduces enemy I to 1.

I wonder how long until someone takes dinner plates sized spore pods to a tournament.

that would be too stupidly easy to mishap .. what you want is an L shaped one ... but in all seriousness i hope to god they release a model ... i have seen some weird drop pods (including a monolith ¬_¬) and i don't want to see it again just after we finally get pods

**A-P**

So if the Nids are getting Pods ( which is perfectly fluffy ), I will eagerly wait the next CSM Codex ( propably coming out in 2020

). Dreadclaws are long overdue.

My IG Airborne Regiment propably won´t have to make huge adjustments to doctrine against the Nids. If the Nids plan a Pod Assault ( with supporting infiltrators/burrowers ), the default anti-Drop tactics should work juts fine. Surrender the first turn, put units in reserve and perform a counter-attack. The Chrome Warriors Chapter will propably requisition more plasma weapons from the Munitorium. The Death Guard warband will also swap some of their meltaguns to plasmaguns when facing Nids.

**Fenris-77**

Therion wrote:Well like I said I doubt I would need mystics with the list above, but taking them is an available option.

If the Nid book contains a top-drawer list built with spores and the spores deepstrike, then I think you'll see a whole lot more mystics at tournaments. They're already fairly common of course, but if you add another top-5 finishing kind of list the builds around DS then they become almost mandatory. It's a cheap add so I won't be heartbroken to start penciling them in to all my loyalist tourney lists at that point.

**sirisaacnuton**

Fenris-77 wrote:
Therion wrote:Well like I said I doubt I would need mystics with the list above, but taking them is an available option.

If the Nid book contains a top-drawer list built with spores and the spores deepstrike, then I think you'll see a whole lot more mystics at tournaments. They're already fairly common of course, but if you add another top-5 finishing kind of list the builds around DS then they become almost mandatory. It's a cheap add so I won't be heartbroken to start penciling them in to all my loyalist tourney lists at that point.

Which is why I absolutely hate those books' allies rule. You have 7 or so different codexes (or 6 and a pdf) that can just slap an inquisitor with 2 mystics in for ~35 points if deepstrike gets big. Might as well drop the 10 or so more to give him an Emporer's Tarot at that point... Invulnerable saves get too big, everyone from the imperium has an answer... DS a problem, same deal... I think the Inquisitors and all their trimmings are pretty cool, and would give some extra flavor and uniqueness to the DH/WH...if they weren't in a Guard army every time you turn around.