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Kirasu wrote:Ill never understand a rumored change is then compared to a rule currently in the current book.. Who cares if cannons are heavy.. scourges may have relentless :p

Scourges might have it, ok. But what about the troop units? The cool thing about DE is being able to use a lot of heavy weapons in their core units. Making DE assault might be too OTT, but making the Splinter Cannon heavy would harm a lot. Sourges would still need some more changes to be competitive, like a points cost drop. And a plastic kit would also make them more atractive.

Erasoketa wrote:Scourges might have it, ok. But what about the troop units? The cool thing about DE is being able to use a lot of heavy weapons in their core units. Making DE assault might be too OTT, but making the Splinter Cannon heavy would harm a lot. Sourges would still need some more changes to be competitive, like a points cost drop. And a plastic kit would also make them more atractive.

You ask for to much. Scourges with Poisoned Splinter canns will be insane if they are made relentless.

Of course they could be dropping the Scourges.

Uh oh, my Bloodthirster is getting flashbacks to when he faced those skinks in Warhammer. He never thought he'd see that in 40K.

focusedfire wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:Scourges might have it, ok. But what about the troop units? The cool thing about DE is being able to use a lot of heavy weapons in their core units. Making DE assault might be too OTT, but making the Splinter Cannon heavy would harm a lot. Sourges would still need some more changes to be competitive, like a points cost drop. And a plastic kit would also make them more atractive.

You ask for to much. Scourges with Poisoned Splinter canns will be insane if they are made relentless.

Of course they could be dropping the Scourges.

Well, I was thinking in the 4 boltgun shots that the splinter cannon does now, not in the 6 poisoned from OP.

The Heavy 6 for the splinter cannon is a little disconcerting for me. The best part of them was being able to move and fire.

But if everything is poisoned, that could be really cool. No more "I have nothing that can harm those 2 carneflexes in a 1000pts game" syndrome anymore.

If everything is S2 Poison (4+), seems like auto-loss vs Mech.

Because previously those Strength 3 Splinter Rifles and Strength 4 Splinter Cannons were the bane of armoured transports across the game.

Kirasu wrote:Ill never understand a rumored change is then compared to a rule currently in the current book.. Who cares if cannons are heavy.. scourges may have relentless :p

You never know.. I mean these rumors might not even be true and its even less useful to then assume the current stuff will stay the same. The book is only what, 9 years old now?

Or, maybe all DE warriors will be relentless...we'll just have to see. But honesly even if DE warriors were relentless what's to stop a mech army from keeping their troops embarked and never having to face such an adversary? Really, tactics will work themselves out once a finished codex is released and we have a chance to play around with it.

Or perhaps you don't disembark your warriors from their raiders and shoot rapid fire before assaulting since you can't. Perhaps you deploy, fire 10 pistols and asault. Or maybe you drop some wyches or a 2nd squad of warriors from a raider, shoot twice with each warrior at a squad of marines/bugs/orks/tau/whatever and THEN assault with a different warrior squad that elected NOT TO shoot this turn with it's "rapid fire" weapons.

I think what's happening is people who play DE currently are getting butt-hurt by RUMORS that MIGHT put the IWIN army list in check and require them to play the army as a combined arms force, not just "spam wyches in raiders with some warriors and ravagers and be on your board side on turn 1 asaulting you and win before you can even move". Of course that is the current codex's fault but I'm sure that is what GW is wanting to get away from. Making money aside, there would be no reason for GW to keep the army playing EXACTLY the same way it does now AND releasing a new army book for it.

Every army released in 5th so far does not play similiar to what it did in 4th (even vanilla marines can't do certain builds as well anymore) so why do DE players expect the same.

We know the stats for 3 guns. We don't know how blasters or dark lances will work, we don't know what new squads will be available or how wyches or incubi or talos' or scourges all the REST of the DE codex will work.

I mean, you don't see many marine players qq'ing because there tactical squads can't jump out of a 12" move rhino, shoot (even pistols or just assault weapons) and then assault. If marines want to shoot and then assault after leaving a moving vehicle they need to pay at least 250pts for said vehicle and with the exception of BT and BA they can't spam those (not that you can spam a lot of LR's anyway (even at 2500).

I'm sure Warriors aren't ruined. It appears that Warriors will have one role (if rumors are even close) and that is fire support and they'll do it well. Nurgle Daemon armies, Iyanden Eldar and Tyranids spamming Trygons/Tervigons will HATE facing off against an army where the majority of guns will hurt their big nasties on 4+. I wish my BA tacticals bolters could wound a GUO on a 4+.

I for one relish the idea that GW may be making foot DE completely unplayable, and that DE players will be required to buy and field Raiders for every single unit.

Good point. I think Mech was always the way they were meant to be played.
Way back when I was just beginning to learn DE, the first thing I learned was that footslogging DE (what most beginning DE players field) get annihilated by pretty much everything, whereas Mech DE are almost unstoppable.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I for one relish the idea that GW may be making foot DE completely unplayable, and that DE players will be required to buy and field Raiders for every single unit.

You mean they don't already?

Foot DE is pretty darn shooty, but the idea of GW forcing Mech on DE, like IG just amuses me to no end.

Is there anything GW won't do to make players buy more stuff?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Foot DE is pretty darn shooty,

Yeah, but they're also pretty darn slow and squishy, and arguably more vulnerable to failed Ld checks than any other army. I've tried it many ways, only to find success in mech.

Is there anything GW won't do to make players buy more stuff?

No. I can picture 6th Edition turning 40k into Apocalypse-sized battles, utilizing the Spearhead vehicle bonuses and requiring the Planetstrike strongholds sold by GW.

Archonate wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Foot DE is pretty darn shooty,

Yeah, but they're also pretty darn slow and squishy, and arguably more vulnerable to failed Ld checks than any other army. I've tried it many ways, only to find success in mech.

Is there anything GW won't do to make players buy more stuff?

No. I can picture 6th Edition turning 40k into Apocalypse-sized battles, utilizing the Spearhead vehicle bonuses and requiring the Planetstrike strongholds sold by GW.

If so.... Warmachine will recieve my loyal attention and GW stuff WILL BE SOLD!! Ive spent too much time bringing three armies up to tourney size just to purchase more. (NEW minis is different tho)

Definitely, new models are a whole new kettle of fish. But it's when you have to re-buy your army because they just screwed over your current army that annoys me. Luckily not happened to me yet . . . just crossing my fingers that they don't ruin my Dark Eldar. I've been waiting too long for this codex for them to make me buy a whole new Dark Eldar army.

Just excited to see what they can do with new units though =D Hopefully some awesomely cool new models aswell. =D

Oshova

Luthon1234 wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

Luthon1234 wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:Sounds reasonable to me. First thing everyone should remember before they start complaining is that part of the reason FOR updates is to shake up the way you play the army.

I'd expect GW, after this long, to make massive changes to how DE play, starting with removing the Radier Spam and Multiple Dark Lance lists that everyone uses.

So GW doesn't want 5th ed DE to be competitive in 5th ed? I guess 6th ed is a lot closer than I thought.

new weapons, new options, new toys that are the 'stupidly good' units of the book so they sell motif, change one method of army play, introduce 3 others at least.

I 'm just saying mech is king now taking away raiders won't help at all unless DE warriors can deepstrike and have jump packs. They want more people to buy DE and if they ever get around to it raiders will still be one of the most bought unit, other than vets who don't want to buy new raiders/ravagers there still gonna be a lot of new people buying raiders in bulk.

Or maybe they'll think of something ELSE. It would be kinda lazy to just say "since everything HAS to be mech now, we must continue this trend with DE".

The point is, DE are going to change a lot, as is to be expected with a 9-year update. I envisage a lot of these threads cropping up - just people complaining that they want a new codex, but they don't want ANY of the current options to change - just new ones added.

I'm happy to see changes, as long as I don't have to re-buy my army . . . and with 3000 points already, I don't see that having to happen. I would be happy to see some cool changes though. Something to make both me and my opponent think about what to do, as after all that is the point of wargaming. Not to just make an awesome power list that means an auto-win.

Once upon a time there where these things called tactics, but the gamers became bored with thinking, and so the powergamer was born. They read the internet forums, and chatted away to the small hours together. Through the use of mathhammer, and a little intelligence they came up with the way of powergaming. The aim being to have won the game before it even begins. Now the gamers have had to find a way to eradicate this ethos of play. Sadly their only hope is GW . . . so yeah, get ready for more powergaming =p

Oshova

JohnHwangDD wrote:If everything is S2 Poison (4+), seems like auto-loss vs Mech.

You're forgetting the rumored S6 12" range melta lance gun.

Also, it's highly unlikely that dark lances will be gone. I'm sure that there will be more weapons available to the army than the three mentioned in the OP.

If the poison 4+ is a guaruntee, I KNOW that I'll have to run Fateweaver in my daemon army every game against DE...or watch my models crawl around on their bellies looking for every cover save they can find-amusing image of the day, bloodletters climbing off of their juggernauts to crawl in the dirt next to each other

I don't think it's worth getting into a lather about these BoLS 'articles'. BoLS put these out to generate hype. They went mad in the run-up to the BA codex release, and then had multiple follow-up articles within days of its release (as if more than a handful of players had had time to do any more than read the codex). I don't think these rumoured stats have any special credibility.

Just one point on the question of whether splinter rifles would be overpowered if they are Assault weapons - Ork shootas are Assault 2, and haven't unbalanced the game despite the fact that Orks can shoot and assault (and have Fast, open-topped transports).

And Grot blastas aren't pistols, they're Assault 1 guns.

Tailgunner wrote:I don't think it's worth getting into a lather about these BoLS 'articles'. BoLS put these out to generate hype. They went mad in the run-up to the BA codex release, and then had multiple follow-up articles within days of its release (as if more than a handful of players had had time to do any more than read the codex). I don't think these rumoured stats have any special credibility.

Just one point on the question of whether splinter rifles would be overpowered if they are Assault weapons - Ork shootas are Assault 2, and haven't unbalanced the game despite the fact that Orks can shoot and assault (and have Fast, open-topped transports).

And Grot blastas aren't pistols, they're Assault 1 guns.

Yea its hard to trust anything kind of rumor lately regardless of who posted what. Best we could do is just speculate on what information we've been given and be totally surprised when none of the rumors were true.

Yea, but the difference with Assault 2 and Rapid Fire is you can still make an Assault after using an Assault weapon. You can't do that after using a Rapid Fire weapon. That's where a lot of us are concerned, as that's a considerable mobility hit.

I could easily see them being rapid fire, with a DE character or psychic ability or something that makes them relentless.

Saldiven wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If everything is S2 Poison (4+), seems like auto-loss vs Mech.

You're forgetting the rumored S6 12" range melta lance gun.

Also, it's highly unlikely that dark lances will be gone. I'm sure that there will be more weapons available to the army than the three mentioned in the OP.

You seem to forget that the lance melta gun was part of the April Fool's hoax on Warseer.

12" rapid fire is no loss for raider squads. The raider can still move 12", and because it's fast and open topped everybody inside can still rapid fire 12" away. The loss of a 24" static long range shot would hurt a foot army, but it's no loss for a mechanized raider army. As far as a mechanized army is concerned why pay points for something you never use like static 13-24" single shots.

Why does everyone here think they need relentless? If that were so, there would be no point in making it heavy. And having 6 shots then assaulting is a bit much don't you think?

Relentless?

Slow and Purposeful!

I have, from a very reliable source, that these rumors are a bit wrong.

The actual stats are as follows:

All poisons are 4+
Splinter Rifle 24" SX, AP5, Rapid Fire, Poisoned.
Splinter Carbine 18" SX, AP5, Assault 3, Poisoned.
Splinter Cannon 36" SX, AP5, Assault 4, or Heavy 6 Poisoned.
Spllinter Pods are an underslung weapon for the Hellions, essentially similar to the carbine.

Edited to add the Strength and AP values to the post.

yakface wrote:


I have, from a very reliable source, that these rumors are a bit wrong.

The actual stats are as follows:

All poisons are 4+
Splinter Rifle 24" Rapid Fire, Poisoned.
Splinter Carbine 18" Assault 3, Poisoned.
Splinter Cannon 36" Assault 4, or Heavy 6 Poisoned.
Spllinter Pods are an underslung weapon for the Hellions, essentially similar to the carbine.

I have no word yet on whether the weapons have an actual Strength value or are just Strength 'X' (or if the listed AP values are wrong), but if I find out I'll let you know.

Now these I can live with, especially if the carbines are available to raider squads.

Okay,

I've found out that the weapons are indeed all AP5 and count as having a Strength of X...so there is never a possibility of getting the poison re-roll with these weapons.