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Archonate wrote:
I know earlier rumors said they would be 18", Assault 2 and I think this is perfect. Take the Splinter Pod, make it S2 and call it a Splinter Rifle... 'Splinter Pod' sounds gay, but it has the right stats.

The first time I've heard of a weapon sounding "gay". Most of them go "BOOM!" in my experience, but the Dark Eldar have always been known for unnecessary extravagance.

Overall, Dark Eldars gun got nerfed:
- 12" guns are much worse than 24", and not scything down Guard? Lame.
- Heavy Splinter Cannons? Ouch, sorry Scourges.

October? Anytime after the 10th will be fine by me!

Other than for the splinter pod, those weapon stats suck arse. For one thing, whoever heard of a cannon version of anything being less damaging, regardless of an increase in the rate of fire. Then there's the range 12" rapid fire weapon. What garbage.

The only way to take the otherworldly glow off of Jes Goodwin's new miniature line for Dark Eldar would be to stick them with arse-tastic rules.

I'm thinking that these stats are mostly B.S. sewed to make the actual rules, when they leak out, seem all that much better for not being screwed up; even if they turn out to be not so much different than what the Dark Eldar have now. People will simply be overjoyed at Dark Eldar not having been given crappy weapons.

Oh, that clever GW.

metallifan wrote:The 12" range also made me go "Hmmm... Pass the salt please."

The power of the new weapons would explain a range drop, but I doubt it'll be -that- severe. I think whoever posted that on BOLS might have gotten a few numbers mixed up due to a late night post. Spayse Emprah knows, I've done myself when I'm really tired/drunk/both

Isn't the Warp Spider Death Spinner a 12" Rapid Fire Weapon? Or at least I believe it was at one point.

So there's at least a precedence of one...

Valete,

JohnS

cygnnus wrote:

metallifan wrote:The 12" range also made me go "Hmmm... Pass the salt please."

The power of the new weapons would explain a range drop, but I doubt it'll be -that- severe. I think whoever posted that on BOLS might have gotten a few numbers mixed up due to a late night post. Spayse Emprah knows, I've done myself when I'm really tired/drunk/both

Isn't the Warp Spider Death Spinner a 12" Rapid Fire Weapon? Or at least I believe it was at one point.

So there's at least a precedence of one...

Valete,

JohnS

I think you're referring to the 3rd edition version of their gun.

Weird stuff like 12 inches rapid fire doesn't happen anymore in 40k. The dev's (honestly) have a much better handle on the actual nuts and bolts of their game system now.

I'm gonna go ahead and call bs on that whole rumor. No way that's true.

Someone mistaking wish listing with rumor control.

Might not make a whole lot of sense,fluff-wise,but if the Splinter Rifle/Splinter Cannon,were assault weapons,then Raider-spam would be pretty broken.

Move Raider 12"

Disembark Sqaud w/2 Splinter Cannons 2"

Dump 28 shots that wound on 4+ no matter what into target

Assault 6" to mop up what's left and/or deny the opponent the opportunity to charge.

Being able to give most every unit in your army a 20" charge move is already pretty strong for the cost of a Raider,and with the recent cuts to the costs of transports,the points cost on the Raider will probably go down,if anything. Letting them unload that kind of firepower before assaulting makes it a little too over the top,IMO. With the rules in this thread,the DE player is at least forced to make the decision whether to keep his unit in the Raider for protection and to utililze their ranged weapons or to assault to try and tie up units to prevent them from shooting/assaulting.

Hmm. Sounds good. Sure that loadout will only kill 3 MEQ's on average but that same loadout will make Tau and IG squads disappear off the board (assuming rifle is ap5).

It also fits the "alpha strike". If you can survive the first turn (ie 6 or 7 raiders plus assorted nasties (and most likely a few units not seen before)) than you can probably counter assault and have a chance.

Being able to kill 9 guardsman (assuming ap5) or 5 firewarriors and then attacking with 20+ attacks in the assault phase would mean only MEQ would stand a chance against DE. IG on foot (and with DL spam not hard to put a mounted IG army on foot), Orks and even Tyranids would be so very disadvantaged. Basically not much without 3+ save could hold up to that.

Fateweaver wrote:Hmm. Sounds good. Sure that loadout will only kill 3 MEQ's on average but that same loadout will make Tau and IG squads disappear off the board (assuming rifle is ap5).

It also fits the "alpha strike". If you can survive the first turn (ie 6 or 7 raiders plus assorted nasties (and most likely a few units not seen before)) than you can probably counter assault and have a chance.

Being able to kill 9 guardsman (assuming ap5) or 5 firewarriors and then attacking with 20+ attacks in the assault phase would mean only MEQ would stand a chance against DE. IG on foot (and with DL spam not hard to put a mounted IG army on foot), Orks and even Tyranids would be so very disadvantaged. Basically not much without 3+ save could hold up to that.

The whole "Alpha Strike" motif for the DE is cool and all,but I think that with Assault weapons,it's just too over the top and not enough armies will be able to survive the first turn well enough to recover and challenge them. I think it will basically turn into DE essentially tearing the guts out of the oppossing army on turn 1,then mopping up whatever's left in the subsequent turns.

Raider-spam will be cheap as heck,from a points standpoint. You figure a DE Raider squad will stay 100-120 points depending on how they're equipped,maybe less since GW will likely undercost the Raider to sell more models,as they have done with many other new models in the past. So,you can throw out 6 10-man Raider Squads with a Dark Lance and 28 (4+)Poisoned shots for 700-800 points,then still have plenty of points left over in a 1500-2000 point army for Raider-mounted Wyches,etc. You can throw out 3 10-woman units of Wyches in Raiders for another 500 points,give or take.

It just seems like too much of a beatstick list. Mech armies are screwed because of DL spam. Horde armies are screwed because of mobility and weight of fire. MC armies are screwed because of poison. On top of it,it just really seems like a list that takes little to no tactics or playing skill to dominate with. "Uhm...ok...I move everything,disembark everything,unload everything,and then assault."

I didn't disagree. I too think Assault 2 (or even 1) would be too OTT against certain armies.

By making the rifle rapid fire it prevents the whole entire shoot, assault and the mop up that would result in that scenario.

Not to mention the guys the raiders will be allowed. It's like if that happens with the gun stats DE players will have to assault with wyches or other assaulty units and not warriors. OMG, combined arms tactics are so not cool!!!!!!!

Archonate wrote:Yeah I'm hoping some of this is not true. All DE infantry weaponry should be Assault. Splinter Cannons REALLY need to not be heavy. In their current fluff, the ammo is propelled magnetically and therefore generates zero recoil.

Is this GW fluff? The no recoil because of the magnetic propulsion? (rather than say, some kind of elf tech stabilizer) Sheesh GW...

I could buy the splinter cannons being heavy, if scourges were relentless somehow (perhaps giving them jetpacks instead of jump packs)

12" rapid fire is just... no, just no.

Sounds fake.

Sounds reasonable to me. First thing everyone should remember before they start complaining is that part of the reason FOR updates is to shake up the way you play the army.

I'd expect GW, after this long, to make massive changes to how DE play, starting with removing the Radier Spam and Multiple Dark Lance lists that everyone uses.

The idea of 12" weapons that are in many ways VERY powerful but put you dangerously in charge range if they fail kinda makes sense when you think about the risky way DE play. The poisoned thing is a huge advantage - allowing you to hurt units that every other sort of infantry wouldn't be able to touch - why shouldn't there be an equally big disadvantage?

Erasoketa wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:You guys are really going crazy over a 12" range rapid fire weapon. Think about it, when are Dark Eldar not going to be moving? If they're not moving, they're good as dead anyway. Splinter rifles as is are rapid fire weapons, no? It's really not so strange.

DE do not move when you make sniper squads of 10 warriors with 2 dark lances and 8 splinter rifles for 100 points. For this kind of units, the splinter rifle we have now is better (at least for the range). For the raider squads the new weapons, be them RF or assault 2, would be better.

I actually agree with Brother SRM on that point - generally I'm either rapid firing my splinter rifles or not using them. The point about Lance squads is okay I guess...but really, if you have a Lance in the squad what are you firing at that the rifles are any help whatsoever with?

I will say I'd rather have it as Assault 12 then rapid fire 12 as I like the idea of assault oriented Warriors, but that seems a difficult dream most days.

Not at all a difficult dream. It's the direction armies are moving these days. My jaw dropped when I saw the kinds of rules and weapons they gave to SWs and BAs. Unbelievably powerful stuff. Poisonous Assault Splinter Rifles would merely be par for the 5th ed codex course. Every time we get a new 5th ed codex, people like Whatever1 pop up expressing sentiments about how such an army would be unbeatable, and it's rules and weapons are way too powerful. (I know I've been that voice in the past) But on the tabletop, they turn out to be fairly well-balanced. Plus we've seen rumors from reliable sources saying that all DE guns will be Assault, including their funky new lances.

And as for their range? Weapons with a 12" range are called Pistols. The more I think about it, the more sure I am that this rumor is utter bs.

Archonate wrote:

And as for their range? Weapons with a 12" range are called Pistols. The more I think about it, the more sure I am that this rumor is utter bs.

Aren't the gretchin guns 12" range?

Nightwatch wrote:

Archonate wrote:

And as for their range? Weapons with a 12" range are called Pistols. The more I think about it, the more sure I am that this rumor is utter bs.

Aren't the gretchin guns 12" range?

And meltaguns.

Erasoketa wrote:

Nightwatch wrote:

Archonate wrote:

And as for their range? Weapons with a 12" range are called Pistols. The more I think about it, the more sure I am that this rumor is utter bs.

Aren't the gretchin guns 12" range?

And meltaguns.

And Shuriken Catapults

focusedfire wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:

Nightwatch wrote:

Archonate wrote:

And as for their range? Weapons with a 12" range are called Pistols. The more I think about it, the more sure I am that this rumor is utter bs.

Aren't the gretchin guns 12" range?

And meltaguns.

And Shuriken Catapults

Gretchin guns are pistols. Meltaguns are Special Weapons and Shuriken Catapults are Assault.
12" Rapid Fire is ridiculous. 24" Rapid Fire would make sense if they were gonna go the RF route.

I'm not defending the viability of the rumoured weapons. I like better assault weapons. Assault 12" Poisoned 4+? That would be cool. 12" RF is stupid, and splinter cannons being heavy is lame.

But there are more weapons ranged 12" that are not pistols. You said that 12" weapons are pistols. That's false. And by the way, meltaguns are assault. The Special Weapon type exists in the army lists, not in the weapons profiles.

Sounds like the DE are going to be GW's response to mech. Not sure if they are going about it the right way.

Archonate wrote:Gretchin guns are pistols. Meltaguns are Special Weapons and Shuriken Catapults are Assault.
12" Rapid Fire is ridiculous. 24" Rapid Fire would make sense if they were gonna go the RF route.

You said that 12" ranged guns were pistols and we were correcting you. Same as I'm about to do on the Meltas are special weapons. No where in my Tau Codex or 5th ed BRB does it say that the Meltas are Special Weapons.

As to weird ranges. IG storm troopers have an 18" Rapid fire weapon. From a balance pov it makes sense to limit them to rapid fire rather than give them assault.


Now personally, I think the ranges got transposed on the Splinter pod and the rifles.

What you don't know is if the have pistols and CCWs in addition to the rifles or two CCWs.....so you could Alpha with one unit by driving up a raider and 2 shots at 12 with a unit with poison or say fleet and charge with base attacks +1 Charge, +1 for two CCW's....two types of Alphas....every one chill till the codex is in your flgs



and I don't even play DE.

Ill never understand a rumored change is then compared to a rule currently in the current book.. Who cares if cannons are heavy.. scourges may have relentless :p

You never know.. I mean these rumors might not even be true and its even less useful to then assume the current stuff will stay the same. The book is only what, 9 years old now?

lol I don't see what's so bad either...most DE I've ever played never make it out of their Raider. Leave the assault to units that are made for it. It'll make players think a little more than they are use to, but every other army has gone through a similar experience with their new codexes. I think the poison is more than enough of a buff...you can drop MC's, Daemons, and gods (C'Tans) with a 4...not much to complain about there IMO.

And just to note: No matter how a gun is fired it will always have a recoil. Newton's laws have held up everywhere in this galaxy so far (to great accuracy I might add), I'm pretty sure the 3rd law will always exist...despite GW's ever so (attempted) scientific fluff.

Kirasu wrote:Ill never understand a rumored change is then compared to a rule currently in the current book.. Who cares if cannons are heavy.. scourges may have relentless :p

You never know.. I mean these rumors might not even be true and its even less useful to then assume the current stuff will stay the same. The book is only what, 9 years old now?

Bingo we have a winner!

I was hoping for posion weapons. I am hoping that DE will be able to have a lot of posion as it is perfectly in line with their fluff.

With the way that Posion is available to the majority of Tyranid units, I also think that it makes sense.

I am hoping that most weapons will be assault though.

ArbitorIan wrote:Sounds reasonable to me. First thing everyone should remember before they start complaining is that part of the reason FOR updates is to shake up the way you play the army.

I'd expect GW, after this long, to make massive changes to how DE play, starting with removing the Radier Spam and Multiple Dark Lance lists that everyone uses.

So GW doesn't want 5th ed DE to be competitive in 5th ed? I guess 6th ed is a lot closer than I thought.

Luthon1234 wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:Sounds reasonable to me. First thing everyone should remember before they start complaining is that part of the reason FOR updates is to shake up the way you play the army.

I'd expect GW, after this long, to make massive changes to how DE play, starting with removing the Radier Spam and Multiple Dark Lance lists that everyone uses.

So GW doesn't want 5th ed DE to be competitive in 5th ed? I guess 6th ed is a lot closer than I thought.

new weapons, new options, new toys that are the 'stupidly good' units of the book so they sell motif, change one method of army play, introduce 3 others at least.

Kurgash wrote:

Luthon1234 wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:Sounds reasonable to me. First thing everyone should remember before they start complaining is that part of the reason FOR updates is to shake up the way you play the army.

I'd expect GW, after this long, to make massive changes to how DE play, starting with removing the Radier Spam and Multiple Dark Lance lists that everyone uses.

So GW doesn't want 5th ed DE to be competitive in 5th ed? I guess 6th ed is a lot closer than I thought.

new weapons, new options, new toys that are the 'stupidly good' units of the book so they sell motif, change one method of army play, introduce 3 others at least.

I 'm just saying mech is king now taking away raiders won't help at all unless DE warriors can deepstrike and have jump packs. They want more people to buy DE and if they ever get around to it raiders will still be one of the most bought unit, other than vets who don't want to buy new raiders/ravagers there still gonna be a lot of new people buying raiders in bulk.