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Just ignore the traitor and go for phase-out.

It will be interesting for my TH/SS Deathwing, glad the first scenario doesn't take a troop away.

labmouse42 wrote:

Kaotik wrote:At first glance the first mission seemed like a serious nut shot for my Razor Wolves and other MSU. It was to be expected since they try something like this every year. However with the 10pt differential for a massacre and the 7 for a major it should at least ease the blow a little due to it being almost a tabling situation for someone in the field to score a massacre there. Even with a win I do not see MSU armies in most cases being able to avoid enough KP loss to even pull off a Major round one. Should be good to go on the last two though so it evens itself out I think.

Remember the traitor is worth 5 KP himself. If your traitor is killed and your enemy's is not, then they are 5 KP up on you, so you can view it as 5 KPs difference for a massacre and 2 for a major.

Morale of the story -- its critically important for your traitor to live. Its better to have your traitor deep in your deployment in a LR next to TH/SS termies than it is to have him with scouts on a hill.

The scenarios are good news for MSU armies. Only 1 of the 3 missions is KP, and the single KP mission that they do have adds a unit to both sides that is worth 5KP. That extra 5KP means it is far less likely to an MSU army to nearly table an opponent and still lose the battle. The other 2 are an objective and victory point scenario, neither of which penalizes a MSU army. Overall that's much better news than having 1 of the 3 games a straight KP battle.

If I can give my opponent any troop model to use as a traitor... anyone have a spare tervigon?

Give your opponent a rhino, it just says troop model after all

thehod wrote:If he must outflank, he can.

This was set by the Deamons codex deployment rule in the ard boyz and I would rule he can outflank based on precedence of the deamon ruling.

Speaking of daemons, how are they supposed to deploy with the traitor? does he drop in with the troop squad? If so thats going to make me happy to be taking them.

Black Rage wrote:Speaking of daemons, how are they supposed to deploy with the traitor? does he drop in with the troop squad? If so thats going to make me happy to be taking them.

Doh. I don't think IC's gain any of the special traits of the unit -- such as deep strike -- as the unit they are attached to. If you attach Marius Clagar to a squad of marine scouts, he does not gain the scout and infiltrate ability.

As such, the rules seem to indeicate that you would need to place the IC on the board on turn 1 (or reserve him normally). If I were you, I would reserve him, then drop a unit of demons near the board edge so your IC can run and join the unit after he moves on the board.

It's risky, but then again, anyone who sides with daemons knew the risks when they started.

Daemons deepstrike and the traitor deploys alone and then joins?

That is what I would think as it does't say that he gains any USR.

The wording of the rule seems to indicate that he can deploy with any troop unit, as they normally would.

Why give a model the IC rule, and then say it can join any troop unit, unless they meant that you can deepstrike/outflank/infiltrate/etc. them as part of that unit.

Of course, that raises interesting sub-questions, like "can they deploy with Summoned Lesser Demons?"

Shamelessly a RAI argument, of course. But that's how I'd rule it.

I gotta wonder if they even had 1 other person read these missions..

I contacted GW and asked a bunch of questions so I will list them out here. There is one....traitor model unit type that I am waiting on a reply from the head customer service guy on so I won't list that one out, also trying to get him to e-mail me a yes or no to everything, hopefully he will.

Scenario #1

Q: Is the traitor model just an extra model added to the game, or do you swap a model from your army list?
A: You swap a individual model for each army.

Q: Does the traitor retain his war gear?
A: No..the traitor loses all war gear and special rules. The traitors stats are replaced with the ones given and the special rule Independent Character is added.

Q: Does the traitors model retain his base size?
A: Yes.

The last question is what the unit type the model is and I am waiting to hear back on that. I also asked about count-as troops and walkers. Things like a Tervigon being traded, a Death Company Dread, Deff Dread, things that while not normally allowed to be a troop, but thru army choices has the ability to become a troop choice. I also wanted them to explain does the traitor have the infantry unit type, jump infantry, MC....think that going to rule that the traitor has the same troop type as the unit he joins, but want to be sure.

Scenario #2

Q: Does your opponent's deployment objective have a point value?
A: Yes, both deployment area objective have a point value of 1.

General Questions

Q: If a unit has a special rule such, as infilitrate, but the mission does not allow that special rule, how do you handle this?
A: Any special rules that are not allowed in the mission special rules section are not allowed except for when a model MUST use their special rule to be used in the game.

So basically the IG guy that must outflank is allowed, because it states that he MUST outflank. Same goes for the Ymgarl Genestealers, Lictors, etc. If you are allowed to choose to use a special rule, and the mission doesn't have the special rule listed, you cannot.

Q: Can your opponent Seize the Initiative?
A: Yes, all 3 missions allow Seize the Initiative roll.

Q: Are you allowed to make Scout moves?
A: Yes, units with scout special ability are allowed to make their scout moves before the first turn.

The is what I have so far...will update when I get more.

I appreciate the work you put in on this and I'm not trying to say that you are untrustworthy but...

Until they post these corrections on their site and in the missions they are largely irrelevant.

If you check YMDC stickys they talk about why CS replies are useless.

These rules look terrible and not even close to being balanced. Why is it fixed turn length for the scenario where turn length is the most important? Why no KP for scenario 3? What exactly is the 'independent' rule? How is the traitor supposed to work? Does he actually have any equipment?

Kurce wrote:These rules look terrible and not even close to being balanced.

Oh hi, welcome to your first year of 'Ard Boyz!

Why is it fixed turn length for the scenario where turn length is the most important?

I think you meant the opposite of what you said here. And the answer you'll get is 'Because it's fun!' or 'Because!'

Why no KP for scenario 3?

Because it is a VP scenario. There is already a KP scenario.

What exactly is the 'independent' rule?

Independent Character

How is the traitor supposed to work? Does he actually have any equipment?

Exactly as listed. No.

It is the same ambassador mission that has been around for 15 years.

I appreciate the work you put in on this and I'm not trying to say that you are untrustworthy but...

Until they post these corrections on their site and in the missions they are largely irrelevant.

If you check YMDC stickys they talk about why CS replies are useless.

Ya, I understand that, hence why I am trying to get them to email me the answers. This isn't going to fly for every spot, just how we probably are going to work it out at the location I am playing at. Just a guideline....think each location is going to have to use house rules to sort out this mess.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:

I appreciate the work you put in on this and I'm not trying to say that you are untrustworthy but...

Until they post these corrections on their site and in the missions they are largely irrelevant.

If you check YMDC stickys they talk about why CS replies are useless.

Ya, I understand that, hence why I am trying to get them to email me the answers. This isn't going to fly for every spot, just how we probably are going to work it out at the location I am playing at. Just a guideline....think each location is going to have to use house rules to sort out this mess.

Not necessarily. Last year, they provided updates at the last minute and they certainly can do that here.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:I contacted GW and asked a bunch of questions so I will list them out here. There is one....traitor model unit type that I am waiting on a reply from the head customer service guy on so I won't list that one out, also trying to get him to e-mail me a yes or no to everything, hopefully he will.

Q: Can your opponent Seize the Initiative?
A: Yes, all 3 missions allow Seize the Initiative roll.

Yay! Vect is back in!!! Thanks for doing all of this legwork for us btw.

Well like it was said before...just because I post it, doesn't make it law. Just a guideline that we probably going to use at my location. Check with your Git (Judge) beforehand to make sure. GW probably posted these scenarios in a rush since they were probably receiving tons of email and calls about when the scenarios were going to come out. Now they are probably receiving more calls and email because no one sat down and looked at these rules from every army codex viewpoint. I ran a campaign one time that took me about a day to come up with the scenarios, but then took me a week going thru all the rules of each army to tweak the scenario to make sure no one could use shady tactics to gain an advantage, or be at a disadvantage.

Why no KP for scenario 3
Because Scenario 1 already uses KPs. It also balances the event for MSU players.
Example. A guy with 9 drop-pod dreadnoughts (we've seen this army at SoCal events).
I fly a few speeders around and kill a couple of pods every turn. In Scenario 1 I crush him by getting 9 cheap KPs.
In scenario 3 I've spent the entire game racking up 315 VPs. Even if NOTHING else on either side were killed, the game would end in a draw.

As for fixed game length (scenario 2)...it makes you think out your game plan and not leave it to the vagaries of you swooping in on turn 5 to contest objectives for the win and hoping the lucky dice leave your opponent high and dry with no options but to wonder how he sat on 4 of 5 objectives all game long, but still lost in the end.
NOTE: this mission is VERY much subject to some jerk slow-playing you with a horde army.

I am surprised at how textbook these are given the absurdity of past hard boy missions (like KP multipliers) these actually seem...

fair

...outside of a few technical questions about the model exchange which is weird but not over the top like triple KP for tanks.

Might actually play again this year.

Akroma06 wrote:

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:I contacted GW and asked a bunch of questions so I will list them out here. There is one....traitor model unit type that I am waiting on a reply from the head customer service guy on so I won't list that one out, also trying to get him to e-mail me a yes or no to everything, hopefully he will.

Q: Can your opponent Seize the Initiative?
A: Yes, all 3 missions allow Seize the Initiative roll.

Yay! Vect is back in!!! Thanks for doing all of this legwork for us btw.

This was probably the case all along, however the customer service guys for GW hold about as much weight as "a friend of a friend of a friend told me". 3/4ths of the time you can call them up and get a different answer every time. #2 and #3 aren't great but aren't nearly as bad as PoS missiong 3 from prelims last year. #1 could be alright, but they need to do a PILE of clarification. That mission can be abused a hundred times over.

Hey it's not the "Kill the fast uns" from last year so it can't be that bad, I mean a mission that directly targets an army is stupid (yes it was my first 'ard boyz and I still advanced)

Why is there even a question on if you can give your opponent a tervigon or death company dreadnought? Why would you *do* such a thing in the first place?

I wouldnt say these responses are irrelevant. TO's are law, not GW. As they arent the ones taking time out of their days and using up store resources to run a tournament. I suggest TOs just email GW or wait a week when I imagine the pdfs will get updated

As for fixed game length (scenario 2)...it makes you think out your game plan and not leave it to the vagaries of you swooping in on turn 5 to contest objectives for the win and hoping the lucky dice leave your opponent high and dry with no options but to wonder how he sat on 4 of 5 objectives all game long, but still lost in the end.
NOTE: this mission is VERY much subject to some jerk slow-playing you with a horde army.

Yeah, you know that "vagarie" you are talking about? This mission took that out. You know that opponent who sat on 4 of 5 objectives all game and still lost? That happens every single time now instead of a 1/3 chance.

Nice. Logic.

If we have nightfight x3 I'm bringing my Dark Eldar.

That much easier to get Vect, 3 Haemonculi, 8 Incubi, and 18 Bloodbrides into CC....

Why is there even a question on if you can give your opponent a tervigon or death company dreadnought? Why would you *do* such a thing in the first place?

Because it is a easy way to get 5 KP fast and easy. Let say I give you a space marine with boltgun, and you give me a death company dreadnought. Now it is still a walker, but now it has no armor, since it has a Toughness and Wounds value. So now you can ID it, with a str 8 weapon value. If your opponent gives you a MC, Jump Infantry, or Biker...you cannot put it in a transport with the unit. There are a ton of ways to abuse the way it works. IG gives a Chaos daemon a guy...IG goes first. The traitor cannot deep strike in with the unit, since doesn't have the special rule, so you have to deploy the unit on the board. IG goes first. He kills the traitor first turn with a LasCannon, Manticore Missile...etc.

Is it a cheesy tactic...yes, but it is legal.

Deadshane1 wrote:If we have nightfight x3 I'm bringing my Dark Eldar.

That much easier to get Vect, 3 Haemonculi, 8 Incubi, and 18 Bloodbrides into CC....

Yeah, I thought that was interesting. Two missions with first turn NF and 1 with last turn. Pretty interesting.

I am 100% certain that the troop you have to give your opponent for the traitor mission has to be on a small base. I forgot the size of it. 25 mm? The one that a standard Space Marine comes on. Pretty sure it has to be that. I realize the rules don't explain but it seems pretty dumb for it not to be.

Dark_Angels_Sav wrote:

Why is there even a question on if you can give your opponent a tervigon or death company dreadnought? Why would you *do* such a thing in the first place?

Because it is a easy way to get 5 KP fast and easy. Let say I give you a space marine with boltgun, and you give me a death company dreadnought. Now it is still a walker, but now it has no armor, since it has a Toughness and Wounds value. So now you can ID it, with a str 8 weapon value. If your opponent gives you a MC, Jump Infantry, or Biker...you cannot put it in a transport with the unit. There are a ton of ways to abuse the way it works. IG gives a Chaos daemon a guy...IG goes first. The traitor cannot deep strike in with the unit, since doesn't have the special rule, so you have to deploy the unit on the board. IG goes first. He kills the traitor first turn with a LasCannon, Manticore Missile...etc.

Is it a cheesy tactic...yes, but it is legal.

Thing is I think it becomes infantry and can join a squad (albeit a rather odd looking infantry model) and therefore you would only be handicapping yourself. I'd be tempted to abuse this as an ork player. He have my 4pt grot while I take you 16 pt space marine.