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G00fySmiley wrote:old zogwort... not that he's stronger... but he might be able to squig the big E beforre he knows what's going on

I like this outcome. Instead of a corpsegod. We would have squig-god on the golden throne!

Nicholas wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

Durza wrote:Almost certainly. But Tzeentch is easily more powerful than the Emperor.

So that's why The emperor's corpse alone is holding all of chaos back from entering the material world? Huh.. I could've sworn...

The Imperials might believe that but it is unlikely. Chaos didn't swallow up the galaxy before the carriongod was inthroned ( or before he was even born ) and it doesn't swallow
up the galaxy now.

According to old GW material, The Emperor actually predates some Chaos gods. Since he's been around for a LONG time before we actually knew about him.

Edit: Khorne came into full being during middle ages. And he's the oldest, that actually makes the Emperor older then ALL the Chaos gods.

I never noticed this before you pointed it out.

This is ridiculous. The Eldar have said they waged wars before humanity even became sentient. Khorne was around a lot longer than the Emperor, and so was Nurgle.


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The only thing the Emperor did by sitting on the throne was prevent daemons taking over Terra, not the entire galaxy.

Durza wrote:This is ridiculous. The Eldar have said they waged wars before humanity even became sentient. Khorne was around a lot longer than the Emperor, and so was Nurgle.

The Eldar didn't create Khorne, Nurgle or Tzeentch primarily on their own though. That's what made Slaanesh special.

The only thing the Emperor did by sitting on the throne was prevent daemons taking over Terra, not the entire galaxy.

The quote Brother Coa provided, if accurate, contradicts that claim.

Keh. I still don't like it. I'll be on the lookout for contradictions.

The Eldar didn't create the other three on their own, but it was also not done by humans, and the gods probably predate humanity. The only mention of Khorne and the Middle Ages I've found is a reference that in their travels, men were more likely to attack strangers than greet them as brothers and Khorne represented this, not that he was created by it.

Apparently Draigo is more than a match for the Emperor.

Only when wearing his Ward brand Plot Armour.

It's pretty clear the Emperor is no match for the Big 4, he sat through the birth of all of them without intervening (even when Slaanesh fethed gak up bad for mankind), and when he finally got off his demigod ass and decided to take the reigns, his plan of action for Chaos was "Chaos? What are you talking about?".

The Star Child, on the other hand...

Durza wrote:
The only thing the Emperor did by sitting on the throne was prevent daemons taking over Terra, not the entire galaxy.

5'th edition Rulebook say otherwise, that without him the entire GALAXY would be the Realm of Chaos.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Malal.

Now seriously, count me on the ranks of those who think The E. is no match for the Chaos Gods. I tend to think of him as a warp entity (a chaos god, if you wish) in the making. Almost there, yet not fully realized.

When he dies though...

I did not think that the big E was older than the big 4 (personally i think he is as powerful and if not then he is defenatly nearly there) can anyone provide concrete (but not ward) fluff or evidence that will put a rest to this.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

I did not think that the big E was older than the big 4 (personally i think he is as powerful and if not then he is defenatly nearly there) can anyone provide concrete (but not ward) fluff or evidence that will put a rest to this.

Timeline:

8000 BC - Birth of the Emperor in central Anatolia.
8000 BC- 1400 AD - Birth of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle (Chaos Gods).
500.M2 - The three older Gods of Chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle awake to full consciousness by the end of the Middle Ages.

So he is older then them and + he was sentient long before Chaos Gods became sentient.

Brother Coa wrote:
8000 BC- 1400 AD - Birth of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle (Chaos Gods).
500.M2 - The three older Gods of Chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle awake to full consciousness by the end of the Middle Ages.

Where's the source for this?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ancient_history
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M2

You have sources on the right side.
You think that I imagine that?

Apologies. I stand corrected. Though how the most powerful psyker in human history managed to ignore the birth of three warp gods is a bit strange.

I take it more as Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch all came into being/self aware at that time. Not that they were created. The energy was already there, it just wasn't a god until the humans gave it a little nudge.

No, they became conscious in the 1500s. Strange though it is.

Matt Ward says this fella:

Son of Draigo!!!

Brother Coa wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

I did not think that the big E was older than the big 4 (personally i think he is as powerful and if not then he is defenatly nearly there) can anyone provide concrete (but not ward) fluff or evidence that will put a rest to this.

Timeline:

8000 BC - Birth of the Emperor in central Anatolia.
8000 BC- 1400 AD - Birth of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle (Chaos Gods).
500.M2 - The three older Gods of Chaos, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle awake to full consciousness by the end of the Middle Ages.

So he is older then them and + he was sentient long before Chaos Gods became sentient.

Thanks this makes much more sense.

I think a major point about the Emporers power is that the big 4 put so much resorses into stopping him, they must have felt at least threatend by him

JohnnoM wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.

And I don't remember this one, in witch paragraph is this "Chaos" mentioned?
I thought that only Warp existed before them...and that the Warp was somewhat empty ( at least with no sentient beings ).

I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.


Chaos first came into existence during the War in Heaven, or rather, after it, the Old Ones having inadvertantly created it in their attempt to fight the Necrons.

Well this is truly some old school stuff...

I personally reckon that if he was at full power, no one could contest him. However at his present state, sure some of the gods could.

He is stronger psycically now than before, after nomming a thousand souls a day. Physically he couldn't hold off a grot with a that had it's lower half chopped off by an angry ork.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, can't remember what paragraph... It is said that only because of him Chaos Gods didn't destroy Humanity and that he is holding back tides of Daemons and guide his people even in his deathless state.

And I don't remember this one, in witch paragraph is this "Chaos" mentioned?
I thought that only Warp existed before them...and that the Warp was somewhat empty ( at least with no sentient beings ).

I've looked through the 5e rulebook. Didn't find the evidence you speak of.

Near the end of The Imperium section of the rulebook, I think. I actually read this part of the rulebook just the other night, so it's pretty fresh in my mind. Says something to the effect of 'if the Emperor fails in his effort to hold back the forces of Chaos, every single human will become a gateway for daemonic forces, and the entire galaxy will be plunged into darkness. There will be no time, no light. Only Chaos.' Or something like that.

Brother Coa wrote:5'th edition rulebook, page 101 : "His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.

If the Emperor fails then the daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."

You didn't even bother to read did you? It's hard to find something when you are not believer...and it goes against your claims...

I have read it. I just can't recall every single line I've read in the fluff.

Consider you have directly stated you don't believe fluff which contradicts your view of the setting as an Imperial fanboy, accusing others of that kind of gak is in bad taste.

That's Warp, unless you can prove to me that Warp = Chaos I will not believe in it.

Are you under the impression that the Old Ones created the Warp? No, they did not. But they perverted the Warp into the dangerous place it is now, essentially creating at least the foundation for Chaos.

The Warp isn't Chaos, Chaos resides in the warp. There's a difference. The warp is basically just an alternate dimension.

Gork and Mork to some extent, but they're not physical entities.


Also yes, the warp is fully separate from Chaos. Like fish and the ocean. The Warp (Empyrean) is the ocean. Chaos is simply a very, VERY, unbelievably large school of fish swimming in the same direction (Usually... mostly.... occasionally... sometimes... well, on a good day).

Durza wrote:Apologies. I stand corrected. Though how the most powerful psyker in human history managed to ignore the birth of three warp gods is a bit strange.

According to the Lexicanum the source is 1st Edition stuff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Realms_of_Chaos:_The_Lost_and_the_Damned#The_Lost_and_the_Damned

Realm of Chaos was a two-part series of books; the first published in 1988, the second in 1990. The books are part of Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader (First Edition). The works discuss the four deities of Chaos and the various aspects of Chaos and the Warp. The books were designed for both Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy. This information has since been superseded, but still forms the basis for later background in Third and Fourth Editions, inspiring the Horus Heresy novels and the Liber Chaotica set of books.

I think it would be pretty safe to ignore it as a fluff from a goofier and less well-thought era. After all, the combined lifeforms of a single planet which haven't even begun to reach population limits would be like a mote of dust (or, if you will, a blue spec) compared to the vast sector-spanning empires which were running about at that time and before. A sudden burst of Chaos Gods born due to negligible human activity can be eliminated by logic, if not simply ignored due to being colossally poor writing.

Glowcat wrote:I think it would be pretty safe to ignore it as a fluff from a goofier and less well-thought era. After all, the combined lifeforms of a single planet which haven't even begun to reach population limits would be like a mote of dust (or, if you will, a blue spec) compared to the vast sector-spanning empires which were running about at that time and before. A sudden burst of Chaos Gods born due to negligible human activity can be eliminated by logic, if not simply ignored due to being colossally poor writing.

People are always extremely ready to dismiss Realm of Chaos era fluff as "goofy and less well-thought", and this is a pet peeve of mine. Pre-RoC, RT fluff has some pretty massive discrepancies with current fluff, but this isn't due to goofiness or poor writing, simply backgroud in a new universe taking some time to settle. The Realm of Chaos books solidifed the 40k fluff into what it is today, and the vast majority of the books' background has never been retconned (indeed, a lot of it has been rewritten into the game after falling absent during 2E, e.g., the Slaan/Old Ones).

Prior to the rise of mankind, the only "sector-spanning empire" (aside from Orks, who the Chaos Gods have never held any particular interest in) that I'm aware of is the Eldar, who certainly hold their fair share of responsibility for the birth of all 4 Chaos Gods. Mankind is suggested as being somewhat special in being an emergent psychic race with no (yet) collective warp entity to protect them from Chaos, the Eldar, who were psychic since creation, always had their gods to keep them from the jaws of the emerging chaos threat, but humanity is an open buffet to Chaos.

Magarachnids, Interex, Kinebrach...

The Cabal was also composed of races that were major players in the galaxy at one stage or another.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I have read it. I just can't recall every single line I've read in the fluff.

Then look better next time

Consider you have directly stated you don't believe fluff which contradicts your view of the setting as an Imperial fanboy, accusing others of that kind of gak is in bad taste.

For other codexes yes, but this is not codex - this is main Rulebook and it's fluff contradicts even those of the codex. It is also stated that Human rase is starting to lose war for it's survival, I toughs you would be happy to hear that

The codices were usually written after the main book though, making their fluff more recent.

Durza wrote:The codices were usually written after the main book though, making their fluff more recent.

Yes but still:

Rulebook - universal fluff.
Codex - Faction propaganda.

Durza wrote:Magarachnids, Interex, Kinebrach...

The Cabal was also composed of races that were major players in the galaxy at one stage or another.

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy books, but Lexicanum claims the Interex were human, and the Megarachnids are notable only for fighting and losing against the Interex, which suggests their peak was contemporary with the DAoT.


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Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:The codices were usually written after the main book though, making their fluff more recent.

Yes but still:

Rulebook - universal fluff.
Codex - Faction propaganda.

This really isn't true. If fluff is presented to us in an out-of-universe fashion (by the omniscient narrator), then it can be assumed to be true and unbiased, regardless of source. Fluff is only biased when presented in-universe (by a chaos champion, or ultramarine captain, or whatever).