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Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:True but presumption that your opinion means anything or is any way prepresentative of a larger opinion is...misplaced.

That's right children, dreams can and will be crushed in an instant.

Thats what I am here for.

"Now you know son, never try."
-Homer Simpson

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:True but presumption that your opinion means anything or is any way prepresentative of a larger opinion is...misplaced.

That's right children, dreams can and will be crushed in an instant.

Thats what I am here for.

"Now you know son, never try."
-Homer Simpson

I prefer:

"Aim low, kids. Aim so low that no one will even notice if you fail."
Marge Simpson

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

They cater to a single, relatively small demographic regardless of how they sculpt their models. Believe it or not, tabletop wargaming with plastic soldiers is not suddenly going to gain widespread popularity - there are chess clubs out there right now going, "At least we don't play Warhammer."

People pick 40K armies for a variety of reasons, and the appearance of the models is included in that. We have absolutely no data to support the position that the current top-heavy sculpts turn away more people than they bring in; what we have are a few people in this thread who don't like the look of the models, and they are in no way indicative of anything save their own opinion. And it's perfectly valid to hold an opinion, but as Frazzled said, there's nothing indicating it's widespread.

Or, to put it how GW would look at it, profitable to cater to.

Monster Rain wrote:I think the relatively small demographic is the people that have a problem with the Sisters of Battle models.

The "relatively small demographic" is "male teenagers with disposable income and an interest in collecting miniatures".

Given that both genders have a portion with a tendency for collecting things (actually, some of the most notable and famous collector's items were marketed primarily to women, showing that certainly such a potential demographic exists), and both genders have a portion interested in painting (at least, that's what seemed to be the case looking at the rosters for various art classes in college, and that most of my art teachers were female...), it would not be such a far stretch to say that gradually adding more and more substance for women would be good for the company. More female writers in BL, sculptors who actually are able to believably sculpt the female form, and so on would, I think, do this. A change of attitude from "Look, it's female! Oh, and it's badass, too." to "Look, it's badass! Oh, and it's female, too." would help all aspects of gaming, from tabletop to computer to console.

As for the rest...

Did I claim my opinions were part of any demographic other than "that poster on the internet named Melissia"? No. No, I did not. In any way. So you may stop insinuating I did, because you are wrong. That particular line of discussion is ended as far as I am concerned.

Surely this topic is moot as they can't really be sexy whilst wearing power armour due to its size and function?

Melissia wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I think the relatively small demographic is the people that have a problem with the Sisters of Battle models.

The "relatively small demographic" is "male teenagers with disposable income and an interest in collecting miniatures".

Given that both genders have a portion with a tendency for collecting things (actually, some of the most notable and famous collector's items were marketed primarily to women, showing that certainly such a potential demographic exists), and both genders have a portion interested in painting (at least, that's what seemed to be the case looking at the rosters for various art classes in college, and that most of my art teachers were female...), it would not be such a far stretch to say that gradually adding more and more substance for women would be good for the company. More female writers in BL, sculptors who actually are able to believably sculpt the female form, and so on would, I think, do this. A change of attitude from "Look, it's female! Oh, and it's badass, too." to "Look, it's badass! Oh, and it's female, too." would help all aspects of gaming, from tabletop to computer to console.

As for the rest...

Did I claim my opinions were part of any demographic other than "that poster on the internet named Melissia"? No. No, I did not. In any way. So you may stop insinuating I did, because you are wrong. That particular line of discussion is ended as far as I am concerned.

You started talking about segments, as in your opinion somehow conferred the status of a segment. It doesn't.
Frankly, other than the issue over Valkyrie cuirasses as it were, they already addressed your points. But as you say, we can move on at this point.

meep meep

Dark Sword Minis size comparison is live. It's wordy.

Reaper comparison already exists. I've got more of those too, and would gladly take terrible pictures of them as well if need be.

/off-topic

Neat, that's pretty useful. I think I might be able to justify using a few of the models, then.

One thing that hasn't been much talked about is that the femaleness of a model (or maybe its femininity) in the GW product lines is itself a novelty and can make the model more desirable. I'm thinking again of Commander Farsight. My point is that it's probably a mistake to claim that the only thing or the primary thing that male gamers are interested in when appraising Sisters is T&A--which, I think must be firmly established by now, is not exactly what the Sisters are best at anyhow. Men, especially teenage boys, are fascinated by women. It's not just because we want to have sex with them or because we want to otherwise use them as objects. Men recognize that women are significantly different from them in non-biological ways, that they bring different ideas and points of view to the table. I think men really are interested in that aspect of female characters, which only exists because they are female. Surely this is not a bad thing?

Melissia wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I think the relatively small demographic is the people that have a problem with the Sisters of Battle models.

The "relatively small demographic" is "male teenagers with disposable income and an interest in collecting miniatures".

Given that both genders have a portion with a tendency for collecting things (actually, some of the most notable and famous collector's items were marketed primarily to women, showing that certainly such a potential demographic exists), and both genders have a portion interested in painting (at least, that's what seemed to be the case looking at the rosters for various art classes in college, and that most of my art teachers were female...), it would not be such a far stretch to say that gradually adding more and more substance for women would be good for the company. More female writers in BL, sculptors who actually are able to believably sculpt the female form, and so on would, I think, do this. A change of attitude from "Look, it's female! Oh, and it's badass, too." to "Look, it's badass! Oh, and it's female, too." would help all aspects of gaming, from tabletop to computer to console.

So your position is that if the models were designed to appeal to women more, women as a general community would suddenly take up a heretofore dormant interest in tabletop wargaming?

Seaward wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I think the relatively small demographic is the people that have a problem with the Sisters of Battle models.

The "relatively small demographic" is "male teenagers with disposable income and an interest in collecting miniatures".

Given that both genders have a portion with a tendency for collecting things (actually, some of the most notable and famous collector's items were marketed primarily to women, showing that certainly such a potential demographic exists), and both genders have a portion interested in painting (at least, that's what seemed to be the case looking at the rosters for various art classes in college, and that most of my art teachers were female...), it would not be such a far stretch to say that gradually adding more and more substance for women would be good for the company. More female writers in BL, sculptors who actually are able to believably sculpt the female form, and so on would, I think, do this. A change of attitude from "Look, it's female! Oh, and it's badass, too." to "Look, it's badass! Oh, and it's female, too." would help all aspects of gaming, from tabletop to computer to console.

So your position is that if the models were designed to appeal to women more, women as a general community would suddenly take up a heretofore dormant interest in tabletop wargaming?

Since 40% of gamers are already women, I don't see how that could be.

Maybe I misunderstood, but that figure was for online gaming right?

Manchu wrote:Maybe I misunderstood, but that figure was for online gaming right?

A minor detail.

I'm a big picture man. I was under the impression that it was originally stated that it was of all gamers, and then some "evidence" was presented that spoke of online games and who plays them, and then... I don't know. I'm not sifting through 20 pages.

I personally hope that they don't change the general design much. I think the figures are great, and they were what attracted me to 40k. If I'd seen them first, I'd probably have started them instead of a fantasy army. At the moment, I am attempting to do both, with little success on either front. I don't think that the current design is too overly sexual. We are talking about fantasy wargaming and not the practicality of actual battle, so license can be taken when designing armor.

loranafaeriequeen wrote:I personally hope that they don't change the general design much. I think the figures are great, and they were what attracted me to 40k. If I'd seen them first, I'd probably have started them instead of a fantasy army. At the moment, I am attempting to do both, with little success on either front. I don't think that the current design is too overly sexual. We are talking about fantasy wargaming and not the practicality of actual battle, so license can be taken when designing armor.

I agree, I think they look fine the way they are.

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Ha. Lucky kids. I think if I had ever asked my mother to spend the kind of money needed to get into 40k they'd have arrested me for murder, as she would have died laughing.

Well, you were the exception.

There are many young players and few of them are playing on their own money.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Truth. From GW's site:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1230058_realestatebooklet.pdf

P4 - Why should GW be in my shopping center?
Demographics: Games Workshop targets a highly desirable demographic; educated, affluent, and
well-behaved 14- to 24-year-old males and their families.

Page 13 - Demographic Criteria (for placing a GW store)
At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males.

pretre wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Truth. From GW's site:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1230058_realestatebooklet.pdf

P4 - Why should GW be in my shopping center?
Demographics: Games Workshop targets a highly desirable demographic; educated, affluent, and
well-behaved 14- to 24-year-old males and their families.

Page 13 - Demographic Criteria (for placing a GW store)
At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males.

14-24 is a bit different from 12-15. I'd hope.

Chongara wrote:

pretre wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Truth. From GW's site:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1230058_realestatebooklet.pdf

P4 - Why should GW be in my shopping center?
Demographics: Games Workshop targets a highly desirable demographic; educated, affluent, and
well-behaved 14- to 24-year-old males and their families.

Page 13 - Demographic Criteria (for placing a GW store)
At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males.

14-24 is a bit different than 12-15. I'd hope.

I believe you'll find Kilkrazy was using a bit of hyperbole to make a point. If it isn't clear, GW has one demographic. I was responding to his true point, that young males are the demo, not nitpicking the numbers.

pretre wrote:

Chongara wrote:

pretre wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Melissia wrote:Asking them to cater to more than just a single, relatively small demographic does not equate to "catering to everyone".

Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Truth. From GW's site:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1230058_realestatebooklet.pdf

P4 - Why should GW be in my shopping center?
Demographics: Games Workshop targets a highly desirable demographic; educated, affluent, and
well-behaved 14- to 24-year-old males and their families.

Page 13 - Demographic Criteria (for placing a GW store)
At least 500,000 total population within 10 miles with 33,000+ 14- to 24-year-old males.

14-24 is a bit different than 12-15. I'd hope.

I believe you'll find Kilkrazy was using a bit of hyperbole to make a point. If it isn't clear, GW has one demographic. I was responding to his true point, that young males are the demo, not nitpicking the numbers.

What I meant was 14-24 is a different set of "Young Males" than 12-15. I might not expecting too many in the 12-15 range to be particularly interested by cool (by my definition of cool) looking female minis. If the range is 14-24 I think there would be real room for it. I know by the time I'd hit 16 or so I'd at leated started to grow some sense.

Hence why I think, or would at least hope that the two ranges are meaningfully different.

Straight from GW itself.

The truth shall set you free.

I think the bodies should be "sexy" (i.e. no change), but the faces scary.

I like the sallet helms (without the fleur).

I dislike the fleur helms intensely.

I would like to see shaved heads, and/or nun-scarved heads.

Kilkrazy wrote:Boys aged 12-15 spending their parents' money is not a relatively small demographic, it's a relatively large demographic.

Everything that GW do is basically driven by the fact that every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 12 and start to play 40K, and buy books and Space Mariens, while every year, hundreds of thousands of boys turn 15 and stop playing 40K.

Maybe my experience is "tainted" by being an American rather than British, but I really don't see this happening. At all.

Perhaps it's merely "British teenaged boys aged 12-15", but then they don't really seem to do advertising in the US outside of licensed works.

Manchu wrote:One thing that hasn't been much talked about is that the femaleness of a model (or maybe its femininity) in the GW product lines is itself a novelty and can make the model more desirable.

*cough* Female Commissar *cough*

A lot of people don't even know the model exists, and GW didn't ever actually sell it on its website/in its stores.

But it's a very expensive model on ebay. I wonder how much of that money GW could get if they sold it themselves. It's not like it's a great model, but it's in high demand-- yet GW isn't answering said demand.

Melissia wrote:A lot of people don't even know the model exists, and GW didn't ever actually sell it on its website/in its stores.

Wrong.
I stated a couple times in this thread that I bought it from GW direct.
It was on the site for a couple years.
But it was under the Collector section, not the direct link in the IG section.

There are a few of these models that people seem to think are rare, and yet were easily available for quite a long time.
eBay sellers especially trump up these claims. There is an inquisitor model that the same thing happened with. Also a female model.

So what you're saying is, GW DID sell the model, but hid it away somewhere obscure that most people wouldn't look? Huh.

As usual, a certain someone posts without information...

Point of fact: The female Commissar was part of the regular, random IG Commissar assortment that sent to the stores. I know, because I picked mine off the shelf at a local shop.

At that time, pre Bitz collapse, the model would have been orderable from GW as a specific model, just like any other metal model (or bit) or sprue that GW produced.

The only reason people might not know it exists is because they're n00bs who got into the hobby after the model moved out of the regular production rotation. N00bs who don't know of things like RoC StD / LatD. This same situation would also hold for Tallarn (non-Attilan) Rough Riders, metal Catachans & Cadians, or Bedford-sculpted Stormtroopers.

It would be far more helpful if someone did her homework before posting.