Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Would/does the Emperor approve of the Imperium in the 41st Millennium?

Being half-dead on the Golden Throne, he can't take an active role in deciding the direction of the Imperium. With that in mind, do you think he knows the direction the Imperium of Man has taken? Do you think he approves, or would approve if he knew?

1 example: He was very much against being viewed as a God, and quashed all suggestion of it (even from his own sons - the Word Bearers), but nowadays with the Church of the Emperor, crazy saints running about, sisters of battle bringing down zealous fury on un-believers, the Emperor from the 31st Millennium would be pretty upset at such nonsense!

One of the main issues is we don't know what or if he did regarding the sisters.

If he really was coherent/conscious/whatever when the Age of Apostacy ended, then that gives us the minimum for our answer (that, whether or not he'd approve of it, he'd realize he needs to roll with it, because in this case, he hypothetically created the sisters in the first place)

The same applies to the myriad of visions etc that he's allegedly giving everyone. If he really IS doing that, then again, it gives us a bare minimum that if he doesn't approve of it, he's not saying anything about it. For all the visions and tarot readings and everything else that various members of the Imperium have gone through in the fluff, not one of them ever reported the Emperor even hinting "I don't like it when you worship me."

Of course, all bets are off if all those visions and whatever else didn't involve the Emperor at all and were just hallucinations or not visions at all or whatever.

As it is though, his primary goal has always been the preservation of humanity. As shown by The Last Church, he really only disproved of religion because it was bad for humanity thanks to all the deaths it caused. Thus, when faced with the choice between the current Imperium's religion or the death of the Imperium (because right now is one of the worse times ever for the Imperium to suffer a civil war. The fluff already calls the current period "The Time of Ending" for a reason), he will likely side with the former as the lesser of two evils.

Silly, but does have a point If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device

Delvian wrote:
Would/does the Emperor approve of the Imperium in the 41st Millennium?

Being half-dead on the Golden Throne, he can't take an active role in deciding the direction of the Imperium. With that in mind, do you think he knows the direction the Imperium of Man has taken? Do you think he approves, or would approve if he knew?

1 example: He was very much against being viewed as a God, and quashed all suggestion of it (even from his own sons - the Word Bearers), but nowadays with the Church of the Emperor, crazy saints running about, sisters of battle bringing down zealous fury on un-believers, the Emperor from the 31st Millennium would be pretty upset at such nonsense!

The Emperor didn't stop humans on Terra from worshipping him as a god in his own lifetime. It was not that the Word-Bearers were worshipping him, it was that they were taking too much time in building the temples and such after conquering a planet that the Emperor had an issue with. Ironically, the worlds conquered by the Word-Bearers remained some of the most-loyal to the Imperium in the Heresy and afterwards.

The Emperor is, above all things, a pragmatic individual. If he suddenly woke up and knew what the state of the galaxy was in M41, I don't see him having much of a problem with it. After all, he's only really opposed to the worship of gods that aren't him.

probably see the worship as a necessary if not diverging from his original plan. but if there worshiping him, there not other gods so probably let that one slide.

More likely to be annoyed by the ineffectual state of his empire, the stagnant priests on Mars and that he has to redo half his work he did before, whilst fixing all the problems now.

 Earth Intruder wrote:
Silly, but does have a point If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device

Would be a whole lot of this

 Psienesis wrote:

Delvian wrote:
Would/does the Emperor approve of the Imperium in the 41st Millennium?

Being half-dead on the Golden Throne, he can't take an active role in deciding the direction of the Imperium. With that in mind, do you think he knows the direction the Imperium of Man has taken? Do you think he approves, or would approve if he knew?

1 example: He was very much against being viewed as a God, and quashed all suggestion of it (even from his own sons - the Word Bearers), but nowadays with the Church of the Emperor, crazy saints running about, sisters of battle bringing down zealous fury on un-believers, the Emperor from the 31st Millennium would be pretty upset at such nonsense!

The Emperor didn't stop humans on Terra from worshipping him as a god in his own lifetime. It was not that the Word-Bearers were worshipping him, it was that they were taking too much time in building the temples and such after conquering a planet that the Emperor had an issue with. Ironically, the worlds conquered by the Word-Bearers remained some of the most-loyal to the Imperium in the Heresy and afterwards.

The Emperor is, above all things, a pragmatic individual. If he suddenly woke up and knew what the state of the galaxy was in M41, I don't see him having much of a problem with it. After all, he's only really opposed to the worship of gods that aren't him.

I agree with this, though he wasn't that hot with any worship and pushed for people to take a pragmatic approach to existence didn't he?

But really, it is more likely that he knows he is very limited in what he is capable of doing and must rely on the efforts of the Imperium to secure what he started. He can't condemn it because there is no option.

The emperor tried to keep the truth of the warp secret from humanity by banning any form of worship and belittling belief. (sound familiar??) but we dont really know what his response would be to a galaxy with knowledge of the warp. He may well see the church and it's apparatus as a bulkward of protection against the warp......but he may want a few reforms..... The final books, if they ever come, of the Hersey series may reveal some clues as to his hopes for a future were the truth of the warp has been more widely revealed.

Like many idealistic leaders, the Emperor gave Humanity far too much credit and believed it was, as a whole, far more intelligent than it actually was.

Perhaps its a case of the 41st millennium being very different to the 31st? Times have changed, humanity is on the brink, so being particular about a secular society may not be such a priority.

Excellent point about the warp Knockagh. Faith is now essentially a weapon to fight Chaos, something that wasn't needed when the vast majority of humanity was in the dark circa M31. Although many humans still have no knowledge of the warp, it's still significantly more than M31

How about other parts of the Imperium, away from the Faith thing? For instance, the endless bureaucracy & litigation? Or the High Lords of Terra, their many failings, and difficulties in agreeing swiftly & coherently?

No.

But that's kind of the point of 40K. That there was once a dream for Humanity, and it was shattered by hubrice and greed, and the remnants are slowly eaten away from the inside by the very same. All of the bureaucracy, inefficiency, conflicting agendas, etc, were borne ot the transition of power to a multitude of individual agencies who were beholden only to an idea rather than to an individual.

It's often overlooked or misinterpreted, but the Imperium was held together by the Emperor's cult of personality. In some ways it still is, but lacking that central authority figure, it falls prey to the personal avarice of the individual.

An Imperium with an active Emperor has no need of the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy is a mechanism of control, and serves principally itself. There's a reason it didn't exist before and a reason it wouldn't exist if the Emperor came back.

For a supposedly wise and superhuman being, the Emperor made the classic human mistake: he assumed he wouldn't die. He set up a system that had no way of functioning without him at the center -- hell, which started to break down as soon as he headed back to Earth and tried to delegate to Horus. The man may have been a genius in some ways but he had some big blind spots about institution-building and father-son relationships.

 SisterSydney wrote:
For a supposedly wise and superhuman being, the Emperor made the classic human mistake: he assumed he wouldn't die. He set up a system that had no way of functioning without him at the center -- hell, which started to break down as soon as he headed back to Earth and tried to delegate to Horus. The man may have been a genius in some ways but he had some big blind spots about institution-building and father-son relationships.

I know. I mean the entire Horus Heresy and him being in the golden throne is all his fault. Had he done everything differently he wouldn't be almost dead now

 Great White wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
For a supposedly wise and superhuman being, the Emperor made the classic human mistake: he assumed he wouldn't die. He set up a system that had no way of functioning without him at the center -- hell, which started to break down as soon as he headed back to Earth and tried to delegate to Horus. The man may have been a genius in some ways but he had some big blind spots about institution-building and father-son relationships.

I know. I mean the entire Horus Heresy and him being in the golden throne is all his fault. Had he done everything differently he wouldn't be almost dead now

Actually, the Horus Heresy is now pointing to this whole situation being a bit more of a "just as planned" on the part of the Emperor, Tzeentch style.

Sounds awful. Like people didn't have enough to complain about in the Horus Heresy series already.

 SisterSydney wrote:
For a supposedly wise and superhuman being, the Emperor made the classic human mistake: he assumed he wouldn't die. He set up a system that had no way of functioning without him at the center -- hell, which started to break down as soon as he headed back to Earth and tried to delegate to Horus. The man may have been a genius in some ways but he had some big blind spots about institution-building and father-son relationships.

Considering that he'd been alive since 8000 BC, I think you could forgive him that belief.

Would the Emperor approve of the Imperium in the 41st century? Depends on which Emperor.

The one who built the Imperium and almost died fighting Horus - certainly not. He was a man with a vision for how things would be and that did not involve brutal repression, despotism, cults of personality or the like.

The one who sits on the throne at the end of the 41st century? Almost certainly. I wonder if this is all his doing. Having survived his encounter with Horus in a very diminished state and driven mad by 10,000 years of internment, the Emperor's unseen hand guides his subjects to their doom for amusement and delights in the suffering of billions. Everything to the contrary is propaganda.

The one who built the Imperium and almost died fighting Horus - certainly not. He was a man with a vision for how things would be and that did not involve brutal repression, despotism, cults of personality or the like.

Except his own. He was a brutal tyrant, that's why the Great Crusade happened. Most of the worlds conquered during it were Human planets, not Xenos. It was his way or the highway.

You think he conquered Terra during the Unification Wars by being a Nice Guy? Ha! No... he created the Thunder Warriors and then began a brutal pogrom of cleansing, those who did not swear fealty to him were purged.

 Psienesis wrote:

The one who built the Imperium and almost died fighting Horus - certainly not. He was a man with a vision for how things would be and that did not involve brutal repression, despotism, cults of personality or the like.

Except his own. He was a brutal tyrant, that's why the Great Crusade happened. Most of the worlds conquered during it were Human planets, not Xenos. It was his way or the highway.

You think he conquered Terra during the Unification Wars by being a Nice Guy? Ha! No... he created the Thunder Warriors and then began a brutal pogrom of cleansing, those who did not swear fealty to him were purged.

And then he exterminated the very soldiers that helped him conquer Earth.

As pointed out, there's always the possibility that he planned for the Heresy to happen and quite a few hints that could be the case. Why? Lots of hypothetical possibilities. For example, it did possibly result in him achieving true godhood. In that case, the question itself wouldn't fit. It's not a question of "Would he approve of the Imperium in the 41st Millenium?" It's a matter of "He created the Imperium of the 41st Millenium on purpose and is a fully active god of it, now".

no and here is why:
1. he never wanted to be seen as a good,
2. inquisition being dicks adn such
3. failing state of tech and quality of life
4. effort wasted against xenos as opposed to daemons
5. no human webway yet.
6. dead primarchs :(

 Brennonjw wrote:
no and here is why:
1. he never wanted to be seen as a good,
2. inquisition being dicks adn such
3. failing state of tech and quality of life
4. effort wasted against xenos as opposed to daemons
5. no human webway yet.
6. dead primarchs :(

There's a difference between "don't worship gods" and "don't worship any gods except me". A lot of fans believe it to be the former, the evidence we're provided suggest it was closer to the latter.

The Inquisition being dicks is exactly what the Emperor created the Inquisition to be.

The failing state of tech is not "new" to M41. The tech in M30 was a serious downgrade from the Dark Age of Technology itself. Since they were not finding any new STCs, it had nowhere to go but down. The conservative practices of the Adeptus Mechanicus are not a new feature to that faction, it's how they've been since the end of the DAoT.

Xenos are a much more immediate concern, considering they seemed to be on a lot of planets he came across in his Crusade. He also didn't believe that Xenos had any right to live, and so ordered their extermination.

 Psienesis wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
For a supposedly wise and superhuman being, the Emperor made the classic human mistake: he assumed he wouldn't die. ....

Considering that he'd been alive since 8000 BC, I think you could forgive him that belief.

Yeah, my headcanon doesn't buy that he's that old, at all. And there's no canon so I'm right! (In a quantum many-worlds/postmodernist death of the author kind of way).

From an earlier thread:

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I've always seen ol' Empy as a bit of a fool.

He spends tens of thousands of years trying to guide humanity and study the war...

Propaganda! Maybe the Emperor was just an unusually talented warlord and psyker who united Terra and recruited the best genetic augmentation experts around to make supersoldiers for him? Maybe he was "only" a couple hundred years old (thanks to anti-aging drugs & genetic enhancements) when Horus put him in the Golden Throne and the whole "around since 30,000 BC" thing is a legend or a lie?

That would explain him being brilliant but not wise -- Napoleon or Alexander the Great, not Kung Fu Jesus.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: in my headcanon, I don't even think Empy was a psyker anymore -- I think the super-powerful psyker was Malcador, and the two has a much more equal partnership than we read about.

Yes, but now we're straying out of what is commonly accepted about the Emperor.

I mean, if I were to present my personal interpretation/version, then people would need to know a *lot* about the myth-cycles of Michael Moorcock, H.P. Lovecraft, R. E. Howard and Robert Chambers.. not to mention have ready availability to the Simon edition of the Necronomicon as well as the Skoob Esoterica version, in addition to that imprint's "Rl'yeh Text" publication.

Everyone who wants Psienesis to write 40k fanfic RIGHT NOW, say "aye." Or, um, just PM him into submission rather than cluttering up this thread, I guess.

Depends on what interpretation of his character you want to take. We know very little about his actual desires rather than stated goals, after all.

The amount of superstition that is alive in the imperium is exactly what he was trying to avoid with the imperial creed. He didn't want people worshipping him as a god. He destroyed a whole city just because the word bearers were worshipping him too much.

Except the "superstitions" are often true. The Emperor knew Chaos existed. He, in fact, used it to finish his Primarch project, with the results we've seen.

Additionally, Monarchia was not destroyed because the Word Bearers were worshipping him... after all, if that were the reason, why not purge Terra of such cults? They were all around him there, why single out one of his own Legions Astartes?

The answer, of course, is because it had become a distraction. They were taking too long to build the temples and monuments and such, and this was not why he built them. Of course, he did absolutely nothing after the destruction of Monarchia to fulfill their need to find something worthy of worship. While we could make up some excuses as to why he would not know this result, they're pretty weak, and require ignoring many other aspects of the Emperor.

The Emperor introduced the Imperial Creed in an effort to destroy Chaos. Worship, superstition related to, or fear, of the main focus of each god [disease, war, change/magic, excess] gave them power; denying them the worship took away their power. It's often discussed in the HH novels that the reason the chaos gods decided to take down the Emperor is because he was trying to destroy them completely through removing their source of power.

My take on it is that when he was interred in the Golden Throne he realised that the best he could hope for was a stalemate with the chaos gods, and he needed the power he gains from worship to maintain this stalemate.

 Earth Intruder wrote:
Silly, but does have a point If the Emperor had a Text-to-Speech Device

Just found this.

If I miss my X-Wing game tomorrow, I'm blaming you.

In all fairness, I'm laughing my balls off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
The Emperor introduced the Imperial Creed in an effort to destroy Chaos. Worship, superstition related to, or fear, of the main focus of each god [disease, war, change/magic, excess] gave them power; denying them the worship took away their power. It's often discussed in the HH novels that the reason the chaos gods decided to take down the Emperor is because he was trying to destroy them completely through removing their source of power.

My take on it is that when he was interred in the Golden Throne he realised that the best he could hope for was a stalemate with the chaos gods, and he needed the power he gains from worship to maintain this stalemate.

That's kind of dumb. Humanity give them worship by just existing.

Tau victory is the best the 40k universe can hope for.