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Brother Haraldus, Primordial, we're going to have to agree to disagree. You make good points, but rather than refuting point by point (and then y'all coming up with more reasonable refutations of my refutations), I'll just say that I consider all narrators in 40K unreliable ones and l don't feel bound by any of the fluff. Remember, there is no canon in 40K.

So if something strikes me as implausible or just dumb (and there's, ah, a fair bit of this), rather than let it interfere with my enjoyment, I just shout "propaganda!" or "legend!" and happily move on.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Here are some things that I commonly see debating over:

How powerful are the troops of each faction really?

Too big question But for IoM, backbone is IG. Humans, but in huge numbers and in times of greater need, IoM can muster able bodies from all planets boosting IG strenght A LOT. But it can/ will have cruel consequences on world's economics and demograpgics. Beginning of the end. Astartes are interesting posterboys and with chapters united can muster formidable power, but even after that, its force suitable rather for surgical strikes than mass frontline warfare.

How bad is the Imperium's current situation?

Not so bad as is used for propaganda (fear gives you power over people). Pretty bad in future.

How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?

Warp. So...dunno. Maybe. Some of them. Warp.

What about the Void Dragon?

Dunno

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?

Titans - depends on type, but some are really HUGE. Bigger than tabletop scale, much much bigger.

Ships - Some of them are floating cities or rather fortresses.

How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?

Very effective. If its officers act reasonably and dont just murder whole population of the planet

How large are the Hive Fleets?

Biggest threat for every race and faction in WH40K. I expect that in final, whem GW decides to move plot, Necrons will make thin metal line protecting humans, eldars etc. Because with Nids isnt so much fun. Im expecting huge waves of epicness and metal baked with biomass together!

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its something I noticed, apparently propaganda can only be made by the Imperium.

I guess why people don't really think propoganda is there for other factions is partially because.... what do they have to gain? Chaos Daemons? What do they benefit from propoganda? Heck the gods hardly have their own personality besides a vague one focused on what they embody. Necrons? Why would they hide the weapons of doom that they have? Tyranids? Why would they bother to have propoganda when bar genstealer cults they are ravenous creatures that just want to consume. And Chaos? Why would chaos have propoganda for not a single one of their planets and have it so they are the bad bad evil guys gonna kill you we backstab eachother and mutate and become spawn and die terribly but oh the freedom except we are slaves to the gods sometimes!

Onto another note, Sydney brought up something that has spawned some debate. Now, then, what of how the Imperium would stay united for so long? Heck, even 1000 years is a long time. Well I say the administratum isn't what keeps the Imperium together as much as they claim. Yeah, it keeps it so revolts get crushed, resources get shipped around, etc... all important. But I believe much of it also has to do to the Ecclesiarchy that keeps the majority worshipping the Emperor. That is the social glue that keeps them together (coupled with the threat of Admin war and also removing supplies from getting to you)

Because Chaos wants followers, and as for the demons, mortal preachers probably do the work to show how powerful demosn can be.

Wait how does preaching of how sucky CSM life is = propaganda for chaos?

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait how does preaching of how sucky CSM life is = propaganda for chaos?

Life as a CSM is bad?

Huh.

I thought it was great fun. Apart from all the depravity, but when you're insane that's just a fact of life...

 Selym wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait how does preaching of how sucky CSM life is = propaganda for chaos?

Life as a CSM is bad?

Huh.

I thought it was great fun. Apart from all the depravity, but when you're insane that's just a fact of life...

I was talking for the standard individual. For me it seems like a jolly good time. Selym did you seal the pilots into the hell talons yet? We don't want another mutiny on this ship. And I have had enough of those plague marines leaving their rotting food at the same place every day! We need some change here! Anyways what do you want to pillage next? I'm thinking we sneak some members in as sleeper agents, wait a few years, and then activate them as they promptly reveal the realities of the warp and that their God is a corpse? Sounds jolly fun does it not? (So are we supposed to get along or be at each other's throats? *coughyouarenurgleandiamtzeentchcough*)

Chaos now hiring all fooli- brave mortals willing to become slav- mighty beyond your imagination.

When I think of 40K, I immediately get visions of the artwork from the 3rd Edition 40K rulebook. That book was so dark with such great visuals, Blanche happiness and lots of other black and white stuff. As a kid I spent hours reading it and re-reading that rulebook, I still have it here in very good condition, such fond memories.

Ya know, it's kinda funny, but sometimes, I get the feel (not the exact imagery but the "feel" that you get in some of the batman movies. You know, the set of them where Jack nicholson played the joker and the penguin and all? The gloomy gothic feel they pushed in those movies. Picture that feel in a sci fi setting.

Gotham Hive? Yeah, that sounds about right....

I have no "mental picture" of 40K's setting. Everything I know about how the universe works is directly shaped by what the source material tells me. No personal interpretation needed.

There are some aspects of the Universe that I don't like or don't make sense to me, like Necrons or how inefficient and Lawful Stupid the Imperium is, but I'm not going to dip my head in the sand and pretend these things don't exist or behave differently just because I don't like them. They are what they are; my preferences are irrelevant.

EDIT- Ha, I forgot that I already posted in this thread. Well, consider this an extrapolation on my earlier thoughts then.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
There is no true 'official' canon in 40K, as Lynata kindly pointed out.

With this in mind, in a setting with tons of contradictory sources where we are allowed, even encouraged, to cherrypick, what is your own personal interpretation of 40K's setting?

Here are some things that I commonly see debating over:

How powerful are the troops of each faction really?


Well I would say that astartes are strongest followed by their warp tainted brothers who I would say are string except there line to be between daemon (which are weak to me ) and being astartes is very small but then would be the nids and guardsmen because of there large numbers then tau and necrons only due to the fact they fight amongst each other in hopes of establishing each other as a pharaoh and orks are here too only cuz dem b derpin bout with da boyz last all the elder no explanation needed

How bad is the Imperium's current situation?

Well it could be worse but I feel there story arch is like that of Europe Rome (the founding of the imperium and crusade) brought civilization to the barbarians thn the dark age and now they need a rebirth maybe by revolution or perhaps the emperor returning but at this point it is kinda bad but they will over come

How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?

Well as said before pretty much immortal look at commander Dante, well the traitors are a different ball game being the warp says to hell with time and all of that yea I mean abandon is older then that I mean even warp jumps show this as you go in today exit in the right place 100 years later so yea they can become very old and there "blessings" will help

What about the Void Dragon?

It's just going to stay locked up the mechanicum has him under wraps but if he did escape I feel some thing would happen with the emperor

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?

Well titans can be huge I mean 500m tall maybe but then again it can change by how they are built and ships I have seen charts that say they can be 10km long or more so again it varys

How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?

How weak is the persons mind or body in Nurgels case so it can do a lot of bad like how the things in lovecraft effect people some people see a fish man and go mad others see a reanimated body and brush it off like "oh another one of those"

How large are the Hive Fleets?
Trillions of bugs they are as big as they want and need to be


Of course, those are just examples that I thought up in a few minutes. Post anything from your own interpretation!

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait how does preaching of how sucky CSM life is = propaganda for chaos?

Life as a CSM is bad?

Huh.

I thought it was great fun. Apart from all the depravity, but when you're insane that's just a fact of life...

I was talking for the standard individual. For me it seems like a jolly good time. Selym did you seal the pilots into the hell talons yet? We don't want another mutiny on this ship. And I have had enough of those plague marines leaving their rotting food at the same place every day! We need some change here! Anyways what do you want to pillage next? I'm thinking we sneak some members in as sleeper agents, wait a few years, and then activate them as they promptly reveal the realities of the warp and that their God is a corpse? Sounds jolly fun does it not? (So are we supposed to get along or be at each other's throats? *coughyouarenurgleandiamtzeentchcough*)

Chaos now hiring all fooli- brave mortals willing to become slav- mighty beyond your imagination.

Yess... mighty...

Though I'll probably have to get the meltagun out for the pilots...

On the plus side, when we get onto an imperial world, we'll be able to make enough sacrifices to the dark gods to get us all closed to daemonhood.

Or spawndom, whichever pleases them.

Powerlevel-wise I usually assume things to be rather more down to earth than many other people here. Space Marines are tough, but they cannot beat entire armies by themselves. Many of the wondrous stories about the Emperor, Primarchs, Saints and other heroes are full of exaggeration, misconceptions and myths. Emperor probably looked more like Sir Ian McKellen than the Incredible Hulk in a golden armour. And now he might be dead anyway.

However, psychologically and visually I assume the world to be weird. Everyone is somewhat crazy. The Imperium is a huge, mindless, uncaring bureaucratic machine fuelled by insanity and superstition. Entire worlds die because of a clerical error, and no one even notices.

Ian Mckellen as the Emperor = awesome. Though at some point he presumably would've augmented himself in a manner similar to a space marine...so a seven-foot-tall, 500-pound Ian Mckellen?

As for Chaos, even people sufficiently well-informed to know about Spawn might join up because of the profound human tendency to think "oh, that won't happen to me." Ambitious young people flock to Hollywood/Broadway/Nashville to become stars, even though by definition only a handful of them can land starring roles and they know that before they go.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Ian Mckellen as the Emperor = awesome. Though at some point he presumably would've augmented himself in a manner similar to a space marine...so a seven-foot-tall, 500-pound Ian Mckellen?

He doesn't really need to, he can buff himself with psychic powers when needed. I see him more as a jedi master and less as a superhero.

I've always seen ol' Empy as a bit of a fool.

He spends tens of thousands of years trying to guide humanity and study the warp, and yet seems to make failures at a fundamental level in his decisions.

And them makes them again...

And again...

Warning: This gets a bit ranty.

 Selym wrote:
I've always seen ol' Empy as a bit of a fool.

He spends tens of thousands of years trying to guide humanity and study the war...

Propaganda! Maybe the Emperor was just an unusually talented warlord and psyker who united Terra and recruited the best genetic augmentation experts around to make supersoldiers for him? Maybe he was "only" a couple hundred years old (thanks to anti-aging drugs & genetic enhancements) when Horus put him in the Golden Throne and the whole "around since 30,000 BC" thing is a legend or a lie?

That would explain him being brilliant but not wise -- Napoleon or Alexander the Great, not Kung Fu Jesus.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I've always seen ol' Empy as a bit of a fool.

He spends tens of thousands of years trying to guide humanity and study the war...

Propaganda! Maybe the Emperor was just an unusually talented warlord and psyker who united Terra and recruited the best genetic augmentation experts around to make supersoldiers for him? Maybe he was "only" a couple hundred years old (thanks to anti-aging drugs & genetic enhancements) when Horus put him in the Golden Throne and the whole "around since 30,000 BC" thing is a legend or a lie?

That would explain him being brilliant but not wise -- Napoleon or Alexander the Great, not Kung Fu Jesus.

That does make sense - there are only speculations as to the pre-crusade days.

If this is the case, there are greater grounds for the Spehss Emprah being just another tyrant who took the chance to gain power.

This talk of the glorious God-Emperor being a fraud is very disturbing. I demand you all stem this nonsense otherwise there will be consequences and repercussions. *cocks pistol*

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
This talk of the glorious God-Emperor being a fraud is very disturbing. I demand you all stem this nonsense otherwise there will be consequences and repercussions. *cocks pistol*

*sticks out tongue*

You can't catch me!

*Hops into the warp*

How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
>Imperial Guard has billions if not a few trillion troops, hell, if we go off the %10 population tithe of every planet then it's probably up to a quadrillion...The individual soldiers are NOT equipped to be on par with the other factions, except Orks I guess because of the technological level. But each Imperial Guardsmen is like a heavily trained veteran United States Marine. They're badass. but it only goes so far.
>Eldar are extremely proficient in what they do on their Path+technology+psychic powers+agility=Monsters of combat NEARING Space Marine levels, but I think on average a Space Marine would win 7/10 times them and an eldar would fight individually. WAYYY better vehicles.
>Dark Eldar are pretty much the same as CW Eldar but with spikes and poisons, and twisted biological constructs. They're on par with Eldar IF NOT BETTER, due to drugs and psychotic training.
>Tyranids are fething crazy, their numbers are their advantage. I think a Space Marine or Eldar could kill just about everything the Tyranids could send at them but the Hive Tyrants and ESPECIALLY the Swarmlord is going to kill them individually most of the time unless they have good ranged weapons.
>Necrons are OP as feth.
>Tau are individually ALOT better in range then Imperial Guard, and probably in matters of discipline as well. But in melee it goes down the drain. Also, while the Tau are technologically advanced, I don't consider their armors to be advanced enough to do much against a few rounds of lasgun. One of their Suits against a dreadnought? The Dreadnought would make a nightmare out of it. Space and Air craft though..probably alot more superior to their Imperial equivalents.
> Orks are crazy and have bolters, but not great range or accuracy or technological level to speak of. Absolutely a horror in melee though. I like their improvised weapons and vehicles.
>Space Marines wreck them all except higher tier characters and units. A Space Marine Chapter Fleet could wreck a planet in an hour or less. The Marines themselves could wreck a planet within a month probably.
Chaos Marines and Traitors=The Traitor Regiments are less equipped but make up for it in bloodlust. The mutations and unholy blessings make up for lack of equipment and repair but they can take alot of damage.constructs like Helldrakes are important too.
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
Its screwed really really bad when it comes to logistics.If ships got to their location faster I actually think the Tyranids and Necrons probably wouldnt be a problem.

How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Marines in my canon can live forever. They just die from combat.

What about the Void Dragon?

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
Titans can get as big as the The World Trade Center used to be, and bigger.
Imperial warships get to be miles long.

How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
VERY effective, very Lovecraftian.

How large are the Hive Fleets?
Trillions of Tyranids in a big hive fleet.

 da001 wrote:

However, the setting is a legend told to us from a distant future, or at least that is the way I see it. We know that humanity survived this. But the Imperium fell, and this age was called "the End of Times" and described as absolutely horrible.

I like this. As in 40k is a historic recount from a far distant future source.

It's a similar concept to the one in Babylon 5, where there is a Human from 1 million years AD recounting historic records before having to evacuate Earth before the Sun goes nova.

- How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
The difference between raw capability of each faction's individual soldiers is not as extreme as others make it out to be. Firepower and tactics matter more than biology in all but he most extreme (Necrons, Orks, Tyranids) situations; but even then, firepower and tactics frequently wins, and besides, those factions USE firepower and tactics too. It's just that the other factions (such as the Imperial Guard and Tau) use MORE firepower on average to compensate.


- How bad is the Imperium's current situation?
It'll live; even if it suffers, it endures.


- How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
I don't really care, most of them don't become old enough for the question to matter anyway.


- What about the Void Dragon?
What about it? Not really all that important to me. He gone.


- How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
Titans are varying sizes, anywhere from Mechwarrior to low-level Lagann. And the bigger ships are capable of holding hundreds of thousands, if not millions of infantry, so they're pretty damned big!


- How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?
Varies with the agent that tries to corrupt, and the victim that they are trying to corrupt. Necrontyr, Orks, and Sisters are practically immune to it. I usually tend to ignore the existence of Grey Knights at the moment, though I used to like them. Tau aren't resistant to corruption so much as they're just undesirable targets and thus they haven't really had any widescale attempt at corrupting them. Non-Sisters humans vary with personality, but weak-willed individuals could probably be convinced fairly easily.


- How large are the Hive Fleets?
Varies. Large enough to contain billions of human-sized organisms, at least, plus storage units for biomass and other necessary items. Most of it would likely be biomass storage, as they are shown to create new organisms in reaction to strategic or tactical necessity.

no killing the unarmed


Wait-what??? All of a sudden I hate Khorne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait- Berzerkers always kill prisoners-right?

Short answer, the most hopeless world imaginable, whatever you do in its scale is nothing, a billion lives matter little. A world can be lost and not be noticed.

Inquisition will kill you for even being on same planet as a deamon or cult. Its a world where your value is basicly zero. No ones gonna miss or probably even count you.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How powerful are the troops of each faction really?

Imperial guards depends a lot on the regiment, but most really are real though guys, with very good training and equipment. Able to deal with common menaces on the galaxy, and even able to face very strong horrors like the Orks. Regiment like Armaggedon Ork Hunters are total badasses. They have true grit.
Tau have even better equipment and are very dedicated, but when they go to war, they do not expect to die. They expect to be saved by their brother in arms, and their superior technology. They are good, but they do not have true grit.
The Eldars are extremely graceful. They are mainly hindered by their love of elegance and their reluctance to apply blunt force, but they still have awesome technology to avoid damage. They will also avoid to fight as much as possible.
The Dark Eldars are the stuff of nightmare. Kind of like their Craftworld brethren, except maybe even more powerful, and certainly way way more painful. But they have their weakness : pride, and not actually wanting to fight anymore than the Craftworld eldars. When facing any kind of serious opposition, they will retreat if the very first assault is not successful. Their victims will stiff have nightmares for the rest of their lives. They can even frighten a goddamn HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.
The orks are a bioweapon gone mad. Cut an arm, glue it back, it works again. They only die because lasgun are actually VERY powerful weapons (and mono-molecular knifes for the Ork Hunters). And even then, after a battle, just cut the head of every ork you can find, because many of them are likely still alive. Their problem ? Lack of discipline, and that is what wins wars.
The Sisters have even better armor, weapons and training than Imperial Guards. They are basically immune to normal anti-personal weapons, and only military-grade weapons will likely have an effect. Of course, lasguns are still very powerful weapons, so if a Sisters is hit by 50 lasguns, it is very likely she will die, but they manage not to get shot by that many weapons. And meltas, or plasma weapons, will straight up toast them. Also, faith make them do what other troops could not.
Marines are marginally better than Sisters because of their augmentation, but that does not matter much : a melta or a plasma weapon will still toast them anyway. Most of what will be able to bypass the huge protection of the power armor will be powerful enough that the augmentations do not matter. Their great weakness is pride. They do not work well with other imperials organization, and mostly do their things. They are not numerous enough to have an effect on planetary campaigns most of the time. In good case, they disrupts the enemy lines, helping a little the Imperial Guard. In bad case, they disrupt more the Imperial lines, and are a bit counterproductive.
Chaos space marines are quite a bit more powerful than loyal marines, because they have been around longer and got supernatural rewards. However, they do not show up much. They mostly inspire, command and bully human traitors.
Tyranids are another stuff of nightmare. Each gaunt is a barbed killing machine, all focused on killing. It will try to claw at you for many seconds after you blew up its head. Its blood will be toxic to you. Easy to kill though, but so many of them. You will get nightmare even before the Hive is even visible from radars or whatever the Imperium use to scan nearby space, because of the Shadow. There again, survivors will have nightmare for the rest of their lives, but in this case, survivors are much, much rarer as a planet resisting absorption is an extremely rare event !
The Necrons rely on sending (relatively) huge numbers of extremely hard to kill automaton at you. Those damn thing just wont go down ! But they come slowly, stumbling a bit stupidly.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How bad is the Imperium's current situation?

Stale. Maybe a slow decline, but very slow because it is so huge. Tyranids are a new huge threat, though, because they are hardly ever stopped ! Hopefully the sheer number of stars means loosing a few to the tyranids is not the end of the world, but should a huge hive fleet come to Terra… that would be extremely disastrous.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?

What about the Void Dragon?

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?

Do not care.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?

Depends on corrupting who. Corrupts pariah very easily. Can corrupt civilians on most world pretty easily, starting cults, but it needs to be on a society where the cults can survive hidden, else it cannot do much. Can corrupt marines if it really focus on it. Imperial Guard are usually harder than Marines, because they do not have the same very easy strings to pull (pride, etc). Corrupting a Sisters is almost impossible, not because magic protection (physical corruption is a very rare exception, not the rule, and even then wont work if the will to resist of the victim is strong enough) but because no strings to pull here.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How large are the Hive Fleets?

So large your planet do not stand more of a chance than a sheep facing a wolf. Even if it is a Space Marine homeworld. And the sad truth about the result of the Battle for Maccrage is that the Tyranids won, and tragically the rest of the Imperium is not yet aware of it.

How powerful are the troops of each faction really?
I like to think of guard as truly the most pathetic troops that the Imperium can muster. Almost guaranteed to pee their pants and run away at the first sign of trouble. Though obviously this can very depending on the professionalism of the regiment.

For Space Marines I imagine them being something akin to Captain America. I never felt the need for them to be especially tall or muscular either. I think most of their badassery comes from their armour.

Genestealers are pure death, (I probably picked that notion up from Space Hulk, and them having WS7 in 2nd ed).

How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?
Yeah I like the idea of the traitors being immortal, and being able to recall deeds for 10,000 years ago. For ordinary marines I would say 300-600 (if they survive that long), older for Blood Angels.

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?
I imagine an Imperator Titan to be about a mile high. Which would translate to about 70 feet in 40k scale. Certainly much bigger than things like Godzilla or modern skyscrapers. And much bigger than they are currently being depicted as (for good reason obviously). I imagine the space ships as being among the biggest in all of sci-fi.

A slight necro to add something.



Here is what my headcanon estimates a few units as a size comparison to be.

In hindsight, I made the battlesuit a bit small- apologies for that, Tau fans.

I elaborated little in my full post as well.

There is this comparison of titans which the largest titan is almost the same as Statue of Liberty . But I think it should be taller