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Seriously look at most metal infantry or cavalry models. They are poorly detailed and typically fugly. The dragon, balrog, new winged nazgul are cool and great models, but pretty much everything man sized is just bad. Some of the newer plastics are a little better but for the most part they aren't great.

Games Workshop is determined to turn a profit with the game system (they aren't going to release it and then call it a bust a year later) and I'm sure that the current plastics have been in production for a long time. I don't know what would cause WotR players to stay at home as opposed to going to GW or independent stores to play like every other person that plays miniature games. I'd like to see a sales report to confirm my suspicions but I've been to several bunkers and have seen almost no WotR players and never seen someone play a game in the local non GW stores (and they run tons of different stuff). Like I said maybe they have their secret leagues where you have to know the password to enter but pretty much every LotR player I know has quit with the new edition and I don't exactly see people lining up at cash registers with the models in hand.

Ixquic wrote:I don't know what would cause WotR players to stay at home as opposed to going to GW or independent stores to play like every other person that plays miniature games.

NOT like everyone that plays miniatures games, actually. Tons of them play in their basement/garage/game room instead of playing in stores. It's more of a GW and PP thing to play in stores from what I've seen. I don't see Historicals besides FoW played in the stores around here, does that mean non-FoW Historical games aren't doing well and therefore aren't played?

Ironically, it's people like you(the people that only talk about how much the game and models suck loudly and publicly) that are the reason they don't play IN GW stores.

Uh huh, if they are so insecure that someone is saying their game is lame on the internet that they can't go into a GW store where they don't even let you badmouth their products then they have some serious insecurity issues.

Maybe if the game and models weren't so bad people like me wouldn't point it out. Personally I don't care what games people play and I certainly don't go to people and be a negative jerk when they are just trying to have fun but it does scare me when they take a poor product and turn Fantasy into WotR with Empire and Chaos. I'm hoping it doesn't turn out that way but a lot of the rumors seem to be pointing in that direction.

What? The models and rules for WotR are bad? Strange, most of the models I see in the GW online store I think are pretty cool (especially the Easterlings). And everyone who I've talked to who's actually, you know, played the game, think it's a pretty darn good system.

But then again, this is the internet, people do like talking out of their asses.

Wow. You mean there is another person on Dakka who doesn't think Dakka = the world. I swear with all the whining going on on Dakka and the comments made that most Dakkaites think the world outside Dakka doesn't exist.

Ix, again. Just because you don't see something going on at your store doesn't mean it's not out there. There are 14 40k players in my city. I, personally, am the only one that has ever set foot in Dakka and posted on Dakka. That is why I can form an opinion on what does or doesn't happen involving 40K and Fantasy. For example, according to Dakka, of the 6 guys playing CSM in our group, 4 of them should hate the codex and bitch about it constantly because, according to Dakka, 80% or more of the CSM players hate the new codex. In my group it's just the opposite. 2 of them started up CSM AFTER the newest codex came out. A 3rd, a buddy of mine, is in the process of building one.

It isn't insecurity that makes people not want to play in stores because of comments like yours Ix. It's the desire to avoid punching you in the mouth and going to jail for shutting your mouth for you. It doesn't bother me if someone doesn't like 40K but if they keep telling me how dumb and idiotic it is I have 2 choices: walk away or jail. Walking away and avoiding being around that person is cheaper and easier than jail time for assault.

That also and not many people want to spend gas/travel time to go to the nearest game store. There are probably 100's of WoTR players in your area, they just don't all play at the local FLG's.

Anyway, I like the sounds of some of these changes and I look forward to reading the ACTUAL hardbound rulebook.

I'm a fan of WotR, and think they managed to make something that works for an attempt to shift a game from skirmish into regiments. I don't necessarily think they couldn't have done any better (almost any player will notice that Evil Magic is, when spammed, deliciously cheesy, while at the same time Good is pretty much invulnerable to direct hits or hand-to-hand due to a a high natural D and frequency of Enchanted Cloaks), but I don't think the rule's crap either.

However, I like WotR being individual: WotR. I own all three systems (technically more if you include a lot of the sub-games). If one of them is going to merge with another (or, worse, override), I'm basically going to wonder why I should keep the less played of the two. "Hm, I can play WotR, or I can play WHFB: WotR edition with twice the number of players in the store. Why am I going to play WotR?"

Ixquic wrote:Uh huh, if they are so insecure that someone is saying their game is lame on the internet that they can't go into a GW store where they don't even let you badmouth their products then they have some serious insecurity issues.

Maybe if the game and models weren't so bad people like me wouldn't point it out. Personally I don't care what games people play and I certainly don't go to people and be a negative jerk when they are just trying to have fun but it does scare me when they take a poor product and turn Fantasy into WotR with Empire and Chaos. I'm hoping it doesn't turn out that way but a lot of the rumors seem to be pointing in that direction.

Has nothing to do with insecurity. Those who play at home do so for many reasons. Biggest one is that you can control who you are playing with and around.

I am willing to bet that the majority of LotR/WotR players are also historical players. I play in two groups that are mostly historicals. Total of around 20 guys.
Myself and one other are the only ones to go to a GW store. And I am the only one who actually plays at the store, albeit rarely.

I do not understand the hostility in your comments.

Please, if you want to rant and rave about WOTR, start a new thread. I'm here to whine about a product that ain't out yet. Thankyouhaveabiceday.

Durzod wrote:Please, if you want to rant and rave about WOTR, start a new thread. I'm here to whine about a product that ain't out yet. Thankyouhaveabiceday.

Priceless!

I, for one am looking forward to a new edition. If it's good, I'll be happy, if it's not, life goes on. No wonder the missus laughs at people like us (geeks) for getting into a lather about bits of plastic being shuffled around a table.

Yeah. Most geeks EARN the ridicule; not just for playing but for acting like someone is dismembering them whenever rules change.

Feebay and the swap shop will have great deals when the chicken littles sell their collections over a few pages of rules.

Ix- I have been wargaming for 30 years and never once played in a GW or flgs. I have always played in local clubs and peoples homes (inc my own...). Personally I like WotR for its simplicity.

Mick

Durzod wrote:Please, if you want to rant and rave about WOTR, start a new thread. I'm here to whine about a product that ain't out yet. Thankyouhaveabiceday.

I agree, nobody gives two gaks about WOTR in this thread, if you want to QQ about WOTR instead of 8th edition, make a new thread.

I've updated the first post in blue, with the stuff I posted the other day.

Whilst I happen to be here, everyone should head down to their local GW on saturday, as the staff are running intro sessions and answering questions (apparently).

I may well break my 22 personal messages received in 1 day record.

Minsc wrote:I'm, well, not liking the "no duplicate spell" thing.

I am. It's a good balancer and a good anti-spam measure. And about time, too.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Minsc wrote:I'm, well, not liking the "no duplicate spell" thing.

I am. It's a good balancer and a good anti-spam measure. And about time, too.

But I fear this doesn't stop the problem it's designed to fix, which is things like Staff of Nurgle spam; the 'no duplicates' rule doesn't cover bound spells.

Besides, how many spells can really be spammed anyway? This doesn't change Flickering Fire spam, since it's the base spell. Gateway spamming? Please - In a 2000-point game, hero-level wizards are rarely ever going to get that spell off, and even then, it's likely to be dispelled.

It's clearly a step in the right direction. You can't duplicate spells, nor Magic Items, so there's definitely an upper bound.

As you note, the only remaining hole is Daemonic Gifts... Having a single exception for Daemons isn't a reason not to nerf everybody else!

I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

Ixquic wrote:Seriously look at most metal infantry or cavalry models. They are poorly detailed and typically fugly. The dragon, balrog, new winged nazgul are cool and great models, but pretty much everything man sized is just bad. Some of the newer plastics are a little better but for the most part they aren't great.

Games Workshop is determined to turn a profit with the game system (they aren't going to release it and then call it a bust a year later) and I'm sure that the current plastics have been in production for a long time. I don't know what would cause WotR players to stay at home as opposed to going to GW or independent stores to play like every other person that plays miniature games. I'd like to see a sales report to confirm my suspicions but I've been to several bunkers and have seen almost no WotR players and never seen someone play a game in the local non GW stores (and they run tons of different stuff). Like I said maybe they have their secret leagues where you have to know the password to enter but pretty much every LotR player I know has quit with the new edition and I don't exactly see people lining up at cash registers with the models in hand.

troll= Troll failure.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

I pointed this out: It's funny that you're more likely to actually make use of the Parry special rule against someone like a Greater Daemon or Grimgor than you are against something like a Swordsman.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

I'm chalking this one up to more controlled BS to set the rumor mill on fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Minsc wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't like that parry rule at all. It doesn't make any sense from a representative point of view (i.e. it only seems to work against attacks that in reality you couldn't parry, and has no benefit against stuff you could parry) and seriously nerfs hw/s.

I pointed this out: It's funny that you're more likely to actually make use of the Parry special rule against someone like a Greater Daemon or Grimgor than you are against something like a Swordsman.

What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Manfred von Drakken wrote:What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Why a 5+ Ward? They'll have their base 5+ save (They're only S3 for non-heroes, yes? And thus, S5 after lance) and without combi-saves you can really use either.

Minsc wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Why a 5+ Ward? They'll have their base 5+ save (They're only S3 for non-heroes, yes? And thus, S5 after lance) and without combi-saves you can really use either.

If you read the rule clearly, it says You can always take an armour save, and can take either a Regeneration OR ward save.

So you can take your Armour, and then ward, or Armour, or then regen.

Karon wrote:

Minsc wrote:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:What'll be amusing in my Warriors of Tzeentch using HW/S against incoming Bretonnian charges. Yay 5+ ward save!

Why a 5+ Ward? They'll have their base 5+ save (They're only S3 for non-heroes, yes? And thus, S5 after lance) and without combi-saves you can really use either.

If you read the rule clearly, it says You can always take an armour save, and can take either a Regeneration OR ward save.

So you can take your Armour, and then ward, or Armour, or then regen.

Huh, the bolded was new. I apologize for that.

This whole "parry" system is just too confusing. I mean, what was wrong with the current rule? At the least, you're ALWAYS getting something, but this rule just seems a bit out there.

Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait and see how 8th turns out...

(I might just stick with 7th ed if it turns out to suck...)

I kind of like it. Desperately cowering behind your shield with a 1/6 chance of survival seems about right to me.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Are you reading the same thread I am? The changes to the movement phase add a lot of unnecessary randomness to who gets to charge. Striking in pure Initiative order removes the value of charging. The magic phase is being reduced to an afterthought, rather than either a viable tactic or (in the case of some armies) a necessity. Combat involves buckets more dice than previously allowed. Army composition up in the air.

Totally not a fan.

Me neither. I think it sucks.

What I meant though was that the text it takes to explain the changes is tiny. If you were to gather up all the changes from 6 to 7, you could make them all fit on a couple of pages and print them as an update, put them in a PDF and in WD. But instead GW calls it a new game and sells a new book and all the suckers buy it.

Same with the changes for 7 to 8. The changes aren't that voluminous. They may have massive implications on the game, but they're still basically a small list of tweaks that don't justify calling it a new edition. From 5th to 6th was a new edition. In 40k, from 2nd to 3rd was a new edition. Everything after that has been a relatively minor change in terms of actual text.

GW needs to do WFB 8 because they need the revenue of a big splash release this summer. 8.0 is an attempt at a cash grab, nothing more.

frozenwastes wrote: GW needs to do WFB 8 because they need the revenue of a big splash release this summer. 8.0 is an attempt at a cash grab, nothing more.

Really? You sure about that? And this is News to anybody?

Wow.

I'm still pretty excited about the whole thing... fantasy is broken at the moment, imho, so these changes should be refreshing! I am a little apprehensive about needing banners to claim objectives, but that's only due to my own personal army...

What about people getting a 6+ Ward instead of +1 to save for Parry? That looking good to you, RiTides?

Oh, and funny implication: A shield is more effective against Troll Vomit than a Steam Tank's hull.