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After the lost opportunity that was Khorne Daemonkin, where they really didn't bother making up for the shortcomings of Berserkers, what would you guys change to make them a competitive option in CSM?

My ideas are based around keeping them at the same points but including these things along with it:

- Make them 2 attacks base again.

- In addition to the option of taking plasma pistols (which should really only cost 10 points), allow up to 2 Berserkers (3 if you take more than 10) each to have access to a meltagun (10 points) or flamer (5 points). Their catch phrase is literally "Kill, Maim, Burn!", why take away their option for specials that would let them burn/maim others?

- Makes Chainaxes have shred or rending so they're actually worth taking. Also drop them to cost only 2 points per man.

- Give them rampage.

Now I understand the other issue is that they lack a proper mode of delivery besides the expensive option of a Land Raider or banking on Master of Deception via Huron. This is symptomatic of an issue with the CSM codex in general, but I think if they added the option to give Rhinos an Assault Ramp upgrade for 10-15 points each that would solve it.

It's either that or give them a specific rule like "Endless Slaughter" - All units with this special rule when disembarking from a transport are treated as if they had disembarked from an Assault Vehicle. If the vehicle they disembarked from has the Assault Vehicle special rule they gain the Fleet special rule for that turn. But if they get this they'd probably have to lose the Rampage special rule in return.

Make them a better Land Raider (Chaos Crusader/Redeemer), might help.

They seriously don't have 2 attacks base? What is GW thinking? Yeah, that would be a start then.

 krodarklorr wrote:
They seriously don't have 2 attacks base? What is GW thinking? Yeah, that would be a start then.

Lots of things don't that should. Among a long list of problems with GK Strike Squads.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Make them a better Land Raider (Chaos Crusader/Redeemer), might help.

230pts to carry a 200 squad?

I would love to give chain axes shred but rending seems a little much to me. But the problem there would be making shred useful if you are the kind of person who likes to take VOTLW. My local meta is like 80% power armor, so its never a bad idea to take it, but then lightning claws or anything with shred are less appealing. If they stayed at 3 ppm, but had a rending like rule that was dialed back a bit, that would be fun.

My personal idea for a minor buff.

Every casualty you take in overwatch adds 1" to your charge distance.

Not enough to make them competitive on their own but I like it

You also need support like raptors or bikers with melta to crack enemy armor, and a heldrake or havocs in a bastion for anti air.
Khorne needs raiders or giant blobs. Giant blobs are hard but raiders are expensive and limit damage.
It won't be competitive but it can work and have fun games.

 Grimskul wrote:
- Makes Chainaxes have shred or rending so they're actually worth taking. Also drop them to cost only 2 points per man.

I feel like a better solution to this would be to just give them Chainaxes base, for no cost or maybe a 1-2 ppm price increase.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
- Makes Chainaxes have shred or rending so they're actually worth taking. Also drop them to cost only 2 points per man.

I feel like a better solution to this would be to just give them Chainaxes base, for no cost or maybe a 1-2 ppm price increase.

Integrating them into Berserkers as a standard piece of equipment could work too, it's just that I think it's unlikely given that I don't recall that the current Berserker set can outfit every model with an axe.

Berzerkers aren't that bad right now. They aren't the beasts they were before, but still they don't fair too bad. To buff them up to a non-slightly underpowered mode though. Well obviously make chain axes base and probably add one initiative. If you guys want to buff the land raider make them immune to explodes or make them only lose d3 hullpoints. Remember while Berzerkers are amazing at killing everything on the charge their true purpose lies in taking down hordes or terminators. Terminators will be overwhelmed by the amount of strength 5 attacks and can't kill them quickly enough while hordes just melt like butter to Berzerkers, not even Necrons warriors can tank them for to long. Lastly, always include a character with your Berzerkers if they are your army's main presentation give them an AOBF Lord or Kharn and watch the bloodshed unfold .

Give shred to axes, give them +1a, and bam they have suddenly become much better.

A lot of their weakness is inherent in the unit though. It's a lot of points for a T4 3+ unit that must get into melee to do damage and whose only assault transport costs more than the squad itself.

In practice, I find that my MEQ melee units (Khorne Chosen, mostly) only really makes it into melee when they are hidden and used to counter-attack enemy melee units who rush me. Otherwise they die extremely quickly for their cost without achieving anything.

Give them a special rule that allows them to assault out of transports. If it's an assault vehicle, add hammer of wrath or something.

Also give them Assault from Dread Claw transport and assaulting 1st turn of infiltrating or assault the turn they arrive from outflanking.

too op? I guess so.

I'd not call them lost cause as is. They're actually good enough in squads of 8 compared to khornate marines. Yep, they don't get no bolters or meltas that are great for the list but at the same time, they don't need to be expanded further to utisile 2 specials and are fearless + WS5. FNP helps them out a lot too. And they add to target saturation. All they need is a melta bomb on a champ. They're 202 pts for a squad of 8, MB and a naked rhino (+12-17 pts if you want stuff like havok launchers and dozer blades that can be quite handy in this dex) Up from 190 for melta + combi-melta and melta bombs on a non-ferless marine squad with a rhino.

You could do just this thing: move rhino 6", disembark 6", run d6" - you've passed the midboard turn one and are presenting a threat on par with hounds, bikers, maulerfiends, spawns or whatever fast you got there. And rhino can proceed to make potshots with it's bolter and havok launcher.

Fearless is a thing in this case, i think. And a squad of 8 is enough to take some punishment and still remain a threat.

Comparing to bloodletters, zerkers seem to be more durable, somewhat choppier and faster due to rhino. Letters are much cheaper and can deepstrike. Guess, it depends on your needs once again. But as for me, it's a pretty even choice - zerkers, marines or letters. Each presents something useful in one way or another.

But yep, they could use +1 base attack. To ballance it out against regular marines, zerkers could drop ws to 4. That'd still be ballanced. Or they could get a special rule akin to red butchers from World Eater legion. WS5 but always hit on 3+ or better in mellee together with 6+ fnp base.

 Grimskul wrote:

- Give them rampage.

This.

This would make them SOOOOO much better.

Here's my 2 cents:

(a) +1 Attack
(b) Chainaxes standard, perhaps with shred or rending as others have suggested
(c) With their new found chain axes, give 1 per 5 the option to upgrade to a power axe
(d) Allow berzerkers and any MoK IC attached to ignore unwieldy on Axe weapons.
(e) Give them another upgrade option, which allows them to extend the effects of rage/counter-attack/hatred past the 1st round of combat after passing a successively difficult Ld test. Example: berzerkers charge a unit of SM's. combat happens, things die. Space marines utilize their And They Shall Ignore Half The Rules In The Rulebook. Next assault phase the berzerkers take a Ld test at -1 to extend effects of rage/hatred.
(f) Not for berzerkers in general, but a while back I came up with this for chaos vehicles:

Regular Chaos Landraider [215] Can exchange TL-HB for Reaper Autocannon for 5 points.
Chaos Land Raider Hellhammer - replaces each TL-LC with Hades Autocannon, replaces TL-HB with reaper cannon. Transport 14 [230]
Chaos Land Raider Butcherfiend - replace each TL-LC with 2x TL-HF, Replace TL-HB with Baleflamer. Transport 20 [250].
All Chaos Landraider variants have access to Greater Daemonic Possesion. Gives them Daemon USR, and any time a model is removed from a tank shock (gives reason to use destroyer blades ever) or causes HP from a ram, Raider gains a HP. (May raise HP above normal amount?) [20 points-ish]

And for chaos vehicles in general, have possession be god-based. Change the normal omnomnom rule to be IWND. If the vehicle fails the roll, it consumes a random non-character model, with no saves of any kind allowed. If the Models within the transport have the same alignment, they make take armor saves as normal. Opposed alignment [Khorne Slaanesh, Nurgle & Tzeench] lose d3 models. 15 for initial possession, 10 more for alignment
Then add in Possession of ...
--Khorne: Counts its front armor as 2 higher for DoG / Ram purposes (max 15), Models with mark of Khorne count transports assault vehicle as long as it remain stationary. If already assault vehicle then it (the vehicle) may move 12" and allow disembarkation, though the models will have to pass Dangerous Terrain when assaulting.
--Slaanesh: Smoke launchers are 2 use, and grant models with MoS/DoS Stealth that are within 6” of vehicle. Transport gains 2 fireports for Sonic Weaponry. If it already has fireports, Sonic weapons always count as stationary.
--Nurgle: If first IWND roll is successful, may make a second that is successful on 6+. Grants MoN/DoN +1 to FNP within 6”.
--Tzeench: All weapons have soul blaze, if warpflame gargoyles soublaze purchased, soublaze becomes d3+1 s4 AP3 hits. + one of the following
------(a) Models with MoT/DoT embarked within may spend a warp charge to d3: (1) AP worsen by 1, str +1 (2) Ap improve by 1, Str +1 (3) Ap improve by 2, str +d3.
------(b) Models with MoT/DoT embarked count the transport as open topped for purposes of casting psychic powers. Psykers embarked generate an additional d2 warp charge.

Tzeench is the only one I'm not 100% happy with, so that's a thing I suppose

Land Raiders. Lots of Land Raiders.

cheap, fast, assault transport. seriously, first thing bezerkers would do with a rhino would be hack the roof off to get at the enemy faster.

they could call it the bloody blood-blood mc-bloodmobile, it could have a bloodcannon and blood-blades on its blood wheels, and every time it moves it could spawn a bloodthirster.

 WarbossDakka wrote:
Land Raiders. Lots of Land Raiders.

LR are worst! Not cost efficient. Split roles of long range lc while rushing forward transport.

After playing some games with KDK and realizing how good BLs are here are some good ways to buff Zerkers

+6 fnp

+2 attacks

+1 Strength

MOK costs 1ppm

Built in Chain-axes which have rending

You might say, "OMG BERZERKER OP PLZ NERF" But instead of shouting like a bunch of Slaanesh worshiping heretics step back and think. For 162ish or less points you are getting a squad of better BLs with -1 ap and more attacks more strength and the ability to absorb hits. Also, about the MOK decrease in points it should be free, but I'm making it 1ppm on berzerkers so no one starts screaming on how we are not paying for it. Berzerkers should be that unit that you don't need to baby sit with the BT table and able to be the unit that actually goes into combat and obtains the points for your army. How this balances out though is that they are pretty expensive and having a full army of these guys would be less effective then just using only a few for their selected purpose.

I havent read Khorne Daemonkin. Do they have KB ridding juggernauts?

 Filch wrote:
I havent read Khorne Daemonkin. Do they have KB ridding juggernauts?

Unfortunately no. The only thing Daemonkin does is connect some of the CSM codex to Khorne Daemon options in the Chaos Daemons codex. No actual new units short of the new Bloodthirsters.

 some bloke wrote:
cheap, fast, assault transport. seriously, first thing bezerkers would do with a rhino would be hack the roof off to get at the enemy faster.

they could call it the bloody blood-blood mc-bloodmobile, it could have a bloodcannon and blood-blades on its blood wheels, and every time it moves it could spawn a bloodthirster.

Seriously, this. Give them some crazy Mad Max open-topped transport with Berzerkers hanging off the sides, brandishing chainaxes and screaming. Base it off an Ork Trukk and give it some kind of nasty ram with spiky bits, plus the usual Chaos vehicle options. It would totally fit the feel of the army.

Imagined a zerker piloting a spaceship striking the captain-pannel with a chain axe.

Even orkses are more reasonable drivers than zerkers. They SHOULD be footslogging. The thing is that footslogging for zerkers needs to be more viable. Just a single thing like crusader or some sort of extra movement could be a thing. Maybe scout. +d3" to charge moves. Or a combination.

How about change the Metal Boxes into assault vehicles? Half the time, the Bezerkers are standing out in the open and cannot charge even if the enemy is an inch away.

Maybe give them Crusader and Fleet as well.