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Central Cimmeria

stratigo wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome.. .


The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.


Well said! Exalted this post.

Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.
   
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stratigo wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.



The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.


I'm actually convinced that once Warhammer; the Old World drops and we get new Greenskin sculpts with them, we will get the option to play them as normal Orruks. This is my tinfoil hat theory.
   
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 Gallahad wrote:
Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.


Seems a bit like poisoning the well.

I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.


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 Geifer wrote:
Voss wrote:
I can't help but wonder what GW is thinking when they specifically want orcs for whatever reason, but then go out of their way to make them look nothing like orcs, while the established orc aesthetic is kept and happily coexists alongside the new one.

Eh? Greenskins were a big bucket faction, from way back, with lots of variants and variations, not just a specific look of 'orcs.'


Since the post you quote is a follow up to the one in which I was specifically talking about the orc look of the last twenty years and a bit, no, I have to disagree. An orc's an orc and a goblin's a goblin (with the possible exception of a spider eyed mutant on the Arachnarok?). Taste in attire and fashion, that's where you got your differences. Anatomically, there were no distinct sub-groups of orcs.

Orcs in the way, way back wasn't what I was talking about.

Voss wrote:
This is actually a great move away from the way they've artificially limited the pool. Its something new for people who want that, something that evokes Tolkien and D&D for people who want that, and goes back and evokes classic Warhammer looks and models for people who want that. Its a winning move all the way around.


Yes, it's always a great move for people who don't like the current thing and wish it wasn't what it is. Good for them, too, for getting what they want.

Doesn't help people who like the current thing just the way it is.


You've lost me on your... Complaints? People who like 'the current thing' still have the current thing.

As for the anatomical stuff, you're simply demonstrably wrong. It just didn't matter on the models, simply because at that time, GW wasn't hyperfocused with bogging the game down with special rules for every little difference in look or gear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/24 14:45:28


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The problem Orruks had in AoS was they wound up with 3 armies at the very start which were the same structure. Each one was orruks, with big bosses and scrappy fighter and boar riders and such.

Some were plain; some were more wild with bones and some were more armoured and chunky.


Thing was they were 3 separate forces with the same structure. It was messy so I wasn't surprised we lost at least one, though I was surprised to see them chuck out some of the newer models in that.


CruelBoyz are at least very different in design and structure. They are doing fresh different stuff which is what the AoS Orruks greatly needed

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 Geifer wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Of course I'm biased. I think GW is doing a poor job keeping Grand Alliance Destruction so limited with a huge focus on greenskins like there's nothing else in the world. I had hoped for Destruction to get more breadth. It can certainly still happen throughout the edition, but it's a poor and disappointing start to me.


Meh, Order is basically just several variants of elves, humans, and dwarves with Seraphon being the odd one out.


And trees - lots and lots of trees


Very angry trees that resent civilization. Would have probably been better off in Destruction. The impression I'm getting is that GW views Order as civilization and Destruction as natural order.

Of course the Grand Alliances have been somewhat dodgy from the start, so...uccessful GW has been with an intermediate design getting it ingrained in its customers, the harder it's been to revisit older designs that have their own merits but aren't that really cool thing that gets replaced or added to.


Well some of the trees have their own civilisations as well or are part of others....they donlt like some kinds of polluting, devestating technology - see greywater fastness or skaven but they don't hate it all. Well some of them do but thats no different to the Old World. There is currently no Human Destruction factions....

The Grand Alliances are an interesting idea but there are quite a few subfactions that belong in more than one - so yeah some Sylvaneth would be quite a home with destruction (or death - there are undead Sylvaneth in the lore) but the Undead are also often builders of civiisations - sometimes even with mortals. I was hoping the rules for mercenaries Cities of Sigmar would be the start of more of this aspect of mixing stuff up (with counter restrictions)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 15:12:31


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 nels1031 wrote:
 Gallahad wrote:
Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.


Seems a bit like poisoning the well.

I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.

There are rules for baseline Orruks in the Warhammer Legends: Orcs & Goblins PDF.

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Rules =/= models though. I do believe that we'll get some eventual crossover with The Old World greenskins being used in multiple games. But at the moment, there aren't really "normal" orruks available to buy. The only thing that comes close is 'ard boyz, which used to be the elite orcs.
   
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 GaroRobe wrote:
Rules =/= models though. I do believe that we'll get some eventual crossover with The Old World greenskins being used in multiple games. But at the moment, there aren't really "normal" orruks available to buy. The only thing that comes close is 'ard boyz, which used to be the elite orcs.


Dunno, to me the Kruleboyz are the closest to "normal orruks" like in WFB, simply because they can do something more than just hitting someone in the face.

We have ranged units and at least one artillery coming. Even some kind of trolls and bands of somewhat gobbos.

They just have a fancy name for copyright purpose. And I think we won't see "basic races" like before, for that very reason. But the spirit will be still there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 16:16:25


 
   
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stratigo wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.


The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.
So much this.

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Wow I never looked at it that way.

RIP Orcs.

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 nels1031 wrote:
 Gallahad wrote:
Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.


Seems a bit like poisoning the well.

I think most AoS fans would also "exalt" the post you quoted as well. Its been a long bugaboo that there are no baseline Orruks. Mayhaps they'll come back in the future, but the discontinuing of the Boyz, Boar Boyz, Chariot and all the other assorted kits, which were all good serviceable kits, was/is a headscratcher.
Indeed, I have never seen the viewpoint he spoke of expressed anywhere. AoS fans miss normal orks as much as everyone else.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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Would be nice if they made bands of orruks for each Realm like they did for the Chaos warbands in Warcry.

'cause, in the end, a "generic orruk" from the Realm of Shy'ish would surely be quite different looking and have other customs than a "generic orruk" from the Realm of Ghyran.

That applies for all species.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 16:26:23


 
   
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I still want upgrade kits of 'realm bling' containing little bits that can be added to models to theme them.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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UK

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I still want upgrade kits of 'realm bling' containing little bits that can be added to models to theme them.



See I think that is an ideal market option for GW.

I don't think kits for every realm for every race is in any way feasible (unless GW went for 3D printing at home). However generic upgrade kits and terrain features most certainly could be done. Heck even just a terrain themed base set per realm

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stratigo wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.


The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.


I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?

   
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Considering the demand for baseline humans in not just Warhammer but any game, I would say yes.

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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I imagine so, it never ceases to amaze me how people gravitate to Human Male Warrior classes and armies in games.
   
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Also in AoS not having a special thing is itself a special thing. 'Normal' is it's own theme.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
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Cronch wrote:
I imagine so, it never ceases to amaze me how people gravitate to Human Male Warrior classes and armies in games.


Because while some of us want to play fantastical races and beings and/or other people, some people just want to play a different or "better" version of themself and that's OK.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/24 21:37:50


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Regular people stepping up to fight insane odds has it's own appeal. It doesn't even have to be a self insert.

Demons, nigh immortal superhumans with magic gear, crazy brutal greenskins, et al don't really defy expectations if they want to fight.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome. Then I'd love for DoK to get some of the CoS aelves back and Scourge Privateers to go to Idoneth into a larger factions. Throw in Phoenix and Phoenix Guard into Lumineth. Also a rumor that Duardin are all going to be put together which I think is fantastic news.

I think there is also the question whether this is a "new faction" per se or just en expansion of a new potential Orruk Warclan tome. Because if this is just an expanson of the Orruk book then it isn't technically a new faction. A new sub-faction, yes, but not a new faction.

I also think we are probably getting our 5th Aelf faction in the form of Malerion(unless he and Morathi get thrown together, which I kinda hope because then it would be Malerion and Morathi vs. Tyrion and Teclis) and I really don't mind that as I love elves in most fantasy settings.

There is also demand for more traditional fantasy servings which I believe GW is trying to meet. It also doubles as DnD models for them which means they can reach a wider audience.


The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.


I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?


As the wise philosopher Syndrome said: "If everyone is super, then no one is".

Humans are comparative creatures, it's why each special orruk is explicitly compared to a baseline. But if the baseline doesn't actually exist, well it then it kinda makes a mess of the comparison. GW might have avoided this by explicitly excising normal boyz from the setting and making all the comparisons reflective of each other, but they very much did not. It's narratively confusing, if you care about the setting at all. Not every player does.

Destruction has (and kind of always had with orcs even in the old world) a lore problem. In that GW struggles to give them a coherent society and existence outside assaults on states. Destruction gets defined by being opposed to civilization, but it is made up of sapient, if very violent, creatures, that clearly build civilizations, and this is a tension that GW just, well, doesn't know how to reconcile. Also they're bad at portraying stateless societies.
   
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I was about to start on a post about how it is actually natural that all the new orcs can be defined by a baseline that no longer exists by binging up evolutionary niches, but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.

Long post short, evolution. The boyz that didn't get more feral, 'arder, or more cunning were out-competed and killed off.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:

I don't really see a problem with this. Would people genuinely like a flavorless orc boy just as a foil to the rest to feel good about... what exactly?


Not having a pile of special rules is not the same as 'flavorless'

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 MajorWesJanson wrote:
but then my mind went to a picture of a bunch of orcs in the Galapagos Islands evolving to use differently shaped choppas, and yeah, there went the post.


...so when are you going to post the illustrations of the different sub-species of orcs/orruks and their choppas with little handscrawled observations on what lead to the changes?

Now that I know about it, I NEEDS IT.

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Yeah he just signed up to provide diagrams. Get choppin!


But anyways, some of us really do just want the baseline Orcs we had before. There was nothing wrong with them and they had a nice 'scrappy brawler' thing going.

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ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
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 Gallahad wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
To be honest I'd just like regular humans expanded which is already being rumored. I would also argue that the Orruk faction is super limited so any expansion of it is welcome.. .


The problem with the orruks, for me, is that every orruk army is defined by how they are different from standard orruks, except there are no standard orruks any more.

Ironjawz are tougher and bigger and meaner than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Bonesplittaz are weirder and more primative and magical (which is kind of an eh trope) than the standard orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

Kruleboyz are smarter and sneaker than the stander orc boy. But there's no orc boy any more.

They're all defined by a deviation from a baseline that no longer exists.


Well said! Exalted this post.

Prepare yourself for 4 pages of AOS fans telling you how there really weren't any "normal" humans/orcs/elves/etc. in WFB and it was all just a dream.


I won't do that, but I will say does there need to be a standard ork boy anymore?

Kruelboyz are sneaky, IronJawz are tough, Bonesplittaz are weird. Seems fine to me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 05:36:05


 
   
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Pretty much that. You don't have Baseline Elf to know that idoneth are the sea vampire elves, the lumineth are the smug bastard elves and dok are the DoK are serpent elves. They exist perfectly fine without some sort of Basal Elf lineage.

Ironjawz are the armored orcs, Bonejaws are the vacationtime orcs, and now cruella boys are the dalmatians killed my mother orcs. Neither requires weakboys to exist to know what's up with them.
   
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Come to think of it, Warhammer Fantasy didn't have baseline Elves either, except in Blood Bowl.

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I think high elves tend to be your baseline elves, Lumineth in this case.

 
   
 
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