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yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

DarthSpader wrote:yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

Grey Knights have always been secret.

The "mindwipe" thing is by no means new either. Ward worked with established background(the secrecy of the Grey Knights, them mindwiping or killing anyone who's been exposed to Daemonic influences) and fleshed out some stuff.

Very little of the book is as over the top as the whiners make out.

Kanluwen wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

Grey Knights have always been secret.

The "mindwipe" thing is by no means new either. Ward worked with established background(the secrecy of the Grey Knights, them mindwiping or killing anyone who's been exposed to Daemonic influences) and fleshed out some stuff.

Very little of the book is as over the top as the whiners make out.

Thats your opinion, and cannot be proven or denied because it is, again, only your opinion. Others view it as susbtantially over the top as you call it. Frankly given the number of posts to that effect there is merit to it.

Personally, and of course this is my opinion, I became annoyed at the actual writing style which strikes me as amateurish.
*Too much discussion of spells and hexes in place of technology (spells? What are these guys-warlocks?)
*Too much heh heh GK Bob already planned for this heh heh and dropped X new unit to save the day heh heh heh
*The new writing doesn't seem to carry over the theme of "this is a really desperate situation here and we're fighting against nightmares" as well as the old older fluff-again due in large part to the above. Some of the wiritng almost sounds like the GK are now a bunch of eldar farseers.
*The whole "we're the BEST!!! AROUND!!! (intro 80s training montage) except for these guys who are even better, and these guys who are even bestest better and purest purer and don't even hang out with other GKs 'cause they're like not pure you knowz is a bit strange.

*Old Fluff Super GK gives life to temporarily stop Angron. A whole slew of GK's give their lives to do this.
*New Fluff GK gets bored, kicks Mortarian's keister. Kick Fateweaver's keister, Kick blah blah keister. Really? Really?

Troy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:yea im just ignoring the fluff.. the whole bloodtide thing, draigo, pretty much everything about titan.... just all of it seems like "i want GK to be bad ass, but dont know how to make them that way, so ill just say they are secret! and have ancient secrets! and badass guys gaurding those secrets! but i cant say what cause its a secret!!!. oh by the way these guys are bad ass and charlie sheen and they are grey knights, and now you remember nothing cause they are grey knights!"

Grey Knights have always been secret.

The "mindwipe" thing is by no means new either. Ward worked with established background(the secrecy of the Grey Knights, them mindwiping or killing anyone who's been exposed to Daemonic influences) and fleshed out some stuff.

Very little of the book is as over the top as the whiners make out.

Thats your opinion, and cannot be proven or denied because it is, again, only your opinion. Others view it as susbtantially over the top as you call it. Frankly given the number of posts to that effect there is merit to it.

Personally, and of course this is my opinion, I became annoyed at the actual writing style which strikes me as amateurish.
*Too much discussion of spells and hexes in place of technology (spells? What are these guys-warlocks?)

Have you ever read anything about the Imperium?
We're talking about a society where if your gun jams, you stop and offer a prayer while performing a ritual to unjam it.
Warp abilities are also referred to as hexes or spells as necessary, but usually they're just not called anything except "Drawing upon the Warp".
The only reason we see specific names associated with 'spells' is for gameplay purposes.

*Too much heh heh GK Bob already planned for this heh heh and dropped X new unit to save the day heh heh heh
*The new writing doesn't seem to carry over the theme of "this is a really desperate situation here and we're fighting against nightmares" as well as the old older fluff-again due in large part to the above. Some of the wiritng almost sounds like the GK are now a bunch of eldar farseers.

Because the Farseers and Grey Knights tend to work in the same general methods.
They both utilize prophecy to find out when/where something will happen and try to proactively stop it before it occurs.

*The whole "we're the BEST!!! AROUND!!! (intro 80s training montage) except for these guys who are even better, and these guys who are even bestest better and purest purer and don't even hang out with other GKs 'cause they're like not pure you knowz is a bit strange.

You've heard of the archetypal idea of a 'paladin' from RPGs, right?
This isn't actually a new idea. There's always been the idea that "even though X is pure, some go beyond that purity and become Y".
Grey Knights borrow heavily from the idea of the RPG Paladin. They're the 'knight in shining armor, battling pure evil'--but with the flavor of 40k meaning that they sometimes have to put the greater good of humanity above their own ideals.

*Old Fluff Super GK gives life to temporarily stop Angron. A whole slew of GK's give their lives to do this.

Not "temporarily stop Angron".
They banished him back to the Warp. Angron's a Daemon Primarch and had a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters, which is the whole reason Grey Knights were there in the first place.

*New Fluff GK gets bored, kicks Mortarian's keister. Kick Fateweaver's keister, Kick blah blah keister. Really? Really?

And once again, we get this crap repeated.
Draigo didn't "kick Mortarion's keister" entirely "alone" in the sense that he walked up and threw down.
Mortarion had already slain the Grey Knight's "Supreme Grand Master", and his bodyguard was engaged with the rest of an entire Grey Knights strike force there to put down Mortarion's shenanigans.
Draigo broke through the bodyguard and dropped Mortarion, "striking the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many longer years before he can enter the mortal realm once more."--which says that he did not kill Mortarion but rather Mortarion was banished.

And for the record?
Fateweaver and Mortarion are pushovers for the Grey Knights.
They're both Daemons, and the Grey Knights possess their true names. Names are power when it comes to Daemons, because it means they can be banished. Mortarion, also, in life was a pushover for most of the Astartes. His real aptitude was in his calculating mind and sheer stubbornness. He was a tactician, not a fighter by all accounts.

Angron, however, being effectively more 'mortal' than Daemon(yes, he's ascended to Daemonhood but he's also protected from psychic attack by din of him being marked by Khorne) is a different story than those two even when it comes to the Grey Knights fighting them. They're looking at a bloodthirsty combat monster who could fight every other Primarch to a standstill.
Of course he gets higher priority and more forces thrown at him than some putz who liked to dress in hoods and carry a scythe.

Kanluwen wrote:
You've heard of the archetypal idea of a 'paladin' from RPGs, right?
This isn't actually a new idea. There's always been the idea that "even though X is pure, some go beyond that purity and become Y".

Actually, most RPGs have a sort of Manichean black and white view of purity with possibly a very, very, thin sliver of grey in between.


I will, however, leave 'which primarch is more bad assed' on /tg/ where it belongs.

Further, Kan, you, so far, are more or less the only one defending this turd sandwich, and I've seen you try and defend CS Goto on occasion, so pardon me is I don't buy into it.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You've heard of the archetypal idea of a 'paladin' from RPGs, right?
This isn't actually a new idea. There's always been the idea that "even though X is pure, some go beyond that purity and become Y".

Actually, most RPGs have a sort of Manichean black and white view of purity with possibly a very, very, thin sliver of grey in between.

And Paladins in most RPG settings have varying levels of "purity" based upon the deity they're devoted to.
But you left out the important part of my statement which was that "Grey Knights borrow heavily from the idea of the RPG Paladin--but with the flavor of 40k".

I will, however, leave 'which primarch is more bad assed' on /tg/ where it belongs.

Actually, I'm going by what we've seen in the Horus Heresy novels.
Mortarion's the only one who really wasn't considered a threat by the rest of the Primarchs when it comes down to being in combat.
Even the Death Guard knew that he wasn't better than most Astartes when it came to skill at arms.
The only big thing that Mortarion had going for him, was that he was a well-known strategist and could be put on par with Corax and the Night Haunter when it comes to the usage of psychology in combat. Add in that he was more known for his gunplay, wasn't a psyker, etc and you get a pretty putzy Primarch when it comes down to it.

Now, does that mean he won't be shredding his way through Guardsmen or Astartes when he's Ascended to Daemonhood?
No, of course not.
But he's still a Daemon and he's still a putzy Primarch who got his arse handed to him by an Astartes before his ascension. The Grey Knights would eat him alive.

Further, Kan, you, so far, are more or less the only one defending this turd sandwich,

This "turd sandwich" isn't actually one though. Not on the level that the whining masses are putting it out as, and it certainly isn't the only glaring ridiculous thing within the book.
Am I saying that "This is the greatest piece of background, ever, and everyone should be forced to read it and write a report on it because it's amazing!"?
No.
I'm saying that it's not as terrible as people have been saying it is.

and I've seen you try and defend CS Goto on occasion, so pardon me is I don't buy into it.

And you're full of crap because I've never defended C.S. Goto. I've made it a point to make it known that I hate the man's guts and feel he's a pompous git who should have had his books gathered and burned, along with being blacklisted from ever writing again.

The closest I said to "defending CS Goto" was in this thread where I said that I would "rather have C.S. Goto writing the fiction than some fan rewrite"--and I stand by that statement. Most of the fanwritten material I've read is terrible and it makes Goto or Ward look like Shakespeare. It almost always tends to be some kind of absurd justification for the handwritten Codex that the submitter wants us to 'Ooh' and 'Ahhh' over.

While occasionally you do get gems in the rough, most fanwork is just rough.

Kanluwen wrote:
And Paladins in most RPG settings have varying levels of "purity" based upon the deity they're devoted to.
But you left out the important part of my statement which was that "Grey Knights borrow heavily from the idea of the RPG Paladin--but with the flavor of 40k".

Yeah, but you could excuse just about anything by saying 'but with 40k flavor' (and it's 11 original herbs and Primarchs)

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, I'm going by what we've seen in the Horus Heresy novels.
Mortarion's the only one who really wasn't considered a threat by the rest of the Primarchs when it comes down to being in combat.
Even the Death Guard knew that he wasn't better than most Astartes when it came to skill at arms.
The only big thing that Mortarion had going for him, was that he was a well-known strategist and could be put on par with Corax and the Night Haunter when it comes to the usage of psychology in combat. Add in that he was more known for his gunplay, wasn't a psyker, etc and you get a pretty putzy Primarch when it comes down to it.

You left out that even before he turned, he had a thing for poison weapon that gave even Astartes resistance to toxins a run for their money. (Flight of the Eisenstien)

Kanluwen wrote:
This "turd sandwich" isn't actually one though. Not on the level that the whining masses are putting it out as, and it certainly isn't the only glaring ridiculous thing within the book.
Am I saying that "This is the greatest piece of background, ever, and everyone should be forced to read it and write a report on it because it's amazing!"?
No.
I'm saying that it's not as terrible as people have been saying it is.

No, teleporting landraiders (chronoraiders?) and termies as a troops choice isn't bad at all... The fluff is absurd in this one. 'I walk the warp alone, burning down the garden of Nurgle on my Own, and smashing the entire Inevitable city... I am the Chuck Norris of Space Marines..."

Kanluwen wrote:
And you're full of crap because I've never defended C.S. Goto. I've made it a point to make it known that I hate the man's guts and feel he's a pompous git who should have had his books gathered and burned, along with being blacklisted from ever writing again.

Except when you were agreeing with someone who using Goto as a reference in a femmarines thread, IIRC.

Kanluwen wrote:
Most of the fanwritten material I've read is terrible and it makes Goto or Ward look like Shakespeare. It almost always tends to be some kind of absurd justification for the handwritten Codex that the submitter wants us to 'Ooh' and 'Ahhh' over.

While occasionally you do get gems in the rough, most fanwork is just rough.

Not sure if I should take this as a not too subtle veiled insult or simply being uninformed...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Yeah, but you could excuse just about anything by saying 'but with 40k flavor' (and it's 11 original herbs and Primarchs)

Of course

You left out that even before he turned, he had a thing for poison weapon that gave even Astartes resistance to toxins a run for their money. (Flight of the Eisenstein)

It doesn't explicitly say that he had a poisoned weapon, but he was known to inhale the "toxic vapours" from his homeworld which even the Astartes had problems breathing.

The whole plague weapons being used at Isstvan was more Horus' idea though.

No, teleporting landraiders (chronoraiders?) and termies as a troops choice isn't bad at all...

"Teleporting Land Raiders" is only through an upgrade(Warp Stabilisation Field, which is also available to Dreadnoughts in the Grey Knights book ), and it requires a Librarian to use a specific power(The Summoning). It's by no means a standard thing.
Terminators as Troops Choice is far from being "bad".
Grey Knights were originally introduced as Terminator armor only anyways, so it's just going back to the basics.

The fluff is absurd in this one. 'I walk the warp alone, burning down the garden of Nurgle on my Own, and smashing the entire Inevitable city... I am the Chuck Norris of Space Marines..."

And all of the damage he does is repaired when he turns away. It's Sisyphus, but with Terminator Armour and a mullet.

Except when you were agreeing with someone who using Goto as a reference in a femmarines thread, IIRC.

I don't remember that.
But it may have been me agreeing that Goto has written some serious crap, such as Eldar Farseers(including Eldrad) being secret worshipers of Slaanesh and the Eldar running a child molestation cult.

Or it may have been me agreeing about the fact that there's mention of a 'female marine' who was created through sorcery in the book "Storm of Iron".

Not sure if I should take this as a not too subtle veiled insult or simply being uninformed...

It has nothing to do with being uninformed or insulting.

It's a simple statement of observational fact on my part.
Most fanwritten material that's put out there is the work of people who can't write, but want to express their love for the setting.

Every so often, you'll find good fanfiction actually worth reading. More often than not though, you get fanfiction that makes Matt Ward's stuff look tame.

And once again, we get this crap repeated.

And you're full of crap

You seem to have an unhealthy interest in crap there Kanluwen.

Troy wrote:
You seem to have an unhealthy interest in crap there Kanluwen.

Word filters prevent me from saying anything more weighty.

And I find that the term 'crap' gets my point across better than 'gak', which is also the autofiltered replacement of a commonly used 4 letter word.

But it's good to know that you can't actually refute any of the points I put across and are resorting to grade school tactics.

Or just introduce the new 5th choas god, Nnalal

Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:
You seem to have an unhealthy interest in crap there Kanluwen.

Word filters prevent me from saying anything more weighty.

And I find that the term 'crap' gets my point across better than 'gak', which is also the autofiltered replacement of a commonly used 4 letter word.

But it's good to know that you can't actually refute any of the points I put across and are resorting to grade school tactics.

Wait, you're the one playing around with crap, saying others are using grade school tactics? I am suitably impressed.

@ Kanluwen

I'm going to step outside the flock and totally agree with your point!

In another thread on this point, I have to say, I was carried on the tides of "hate" for the codex, and before you could blink found myself aligning myself with those who "hate".....however, like most things, once I had a chance to read the actual codex it's not that bad!

People are overly dramatic about things, and those "whiners" are, IMHO, exactly that...whining!

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Complaining about how childish the writing is because it doesn't use Science, but refers to "Magic".....are these people for real?

Delephont wrote:

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Personally, I generally view the entire codex as a joke, but it doesn't mean I can't not like it.

Since previously the 'smallest' geller fielded warp capable object was a km long... now we can mount one in a land raider? So then why do starships have to be size XL to mount one?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Delephont wrote:

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Personally, I generally view the entire codex as a joke, but it doesn't mean I can't not like it.

Since previously the 'smallest' geller fielded warp capable object was a km long... now we can mount one in a land raider? So then why do starships have to be size XL to mount one?

WTF?!? Why are you even asking this question....news flash, there's no such thing as a Geller Field or anything else in WH40k, it's all made up in the minds of some mad Englishmen....there's no "facts" that need to be explained or justified....it's all bloody make believe.

You ever laugh at those guys who spend hours arguing whether or not Starship Enterprise should be able to reach Warp Factor 12 or not? This is the same thing.

Look, don't get me wrong, I like a good story like the next guy, and I know the value of coherant fluff.....I applaud settings like Dune, and Star Wars and Mass Effect, etc etc.....but at the same time, if GW can't be bothered to maintain some kind of solid basis for their fluff then I'm just gonna laugh and move on....it's not worth it, they're not worth it.

If GW doesn't care about their "Sci Fi" setting why should I bother staying up nights worrying about it? I'll treat their work like Walt Disney.....basically its a joke, end of story.

There are a lot of serious Sci Fi settings out there, why not spend your time looking at those?......yeah, I know, you love WH40K blah blah blah....well, if that is the case, love it for what it is, don't try to change it, it's out of your hands.

BaronIveagh wrote:I've always wondered why GW didn't just solve the issue with a big pile of stinking money.

After all, the writers incessantly add oblique references to Malal.

Yeah, with ~50 CAD for ten itty bitty pieces of plastic that sell out super quick and probably cost less than nothing to make...They've gotta be rolling in cash...

Delephont wrote:

WTF?!? Why are you even asking this question....news flash, there's no such thing as a Geller Field or anything else in WH40k, it's all made up in the minds of some mad Englishmen....there's no "facts" that need to be explained or justified....it's all bloody make believe.

...

There are a lot of serious Sci Fi settings out there, why not spend your time looking at those?......yeah, I know, you love WH40K blah blah blah....well, if that is the case, love it for what it is, don't try to change it, it's out of your hands.

LOL That is very much NOT why it irritates me. There's a WHOLE 'nother spectrum of reason that I'm irritated that Matt Ward was allowed to do this.

Delephont wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Delephont wrote:

The "OH so terrible" story about SoB being killed....really? Thats so bad? its a joke, and people are offended by it? come on get a life!

Personally, I generally view the entire codex as a joke, but it doesn't mean I can't not like it.

Since previously the 'smallest' geller fielded warp capable object was a km long... now we can mount one in a land raider? So then why do starships have to be size XL to mount one?

WTF?!? Why are you even asking this question....news flash, there's no such thing as a Geller Field or anything else in WH40k, it's all made up in the minds of some mad Englishmen....there's no "facts" that need to be explained or justified....it's all bloody make believe.

You ever laugh at those guys who spend hours arguing whether or not Starship Enterprise should be able to reach Warp Factor 12 or not? This is the same thing.

Look, don't get me wrong, I like a good story like the next guy, and I know the value of coherant fluff.....I applaud settings like Dune, and Star Wars and Mass Effect, etc etc.....but at the same time, if GW can't be bothered to maintain some kind of solid basis for their fluff then I'm just gonna laugh and move on....it's not worth it, they're not worth it.

If GW doesn't care about their "Sci Fi" setting why should I bother staying up nights worrying about it? I'll treat their work like Walt Disney.....basically its a joke, end of story.

There are a lot of serious Sci Fi settings out there, why not spend your time looking at those?......yeah, I know, you love WH40K blah blah blah....well, if that is the case, love it for what it is, don't try to change it, it's out of your hands.

From what I have seen, no other Sci-fi universe is NEARLY as in-depth as 40k, not even close. Ever try to explain the specifics of 40k to someone who knows nothing about it? I'm pretty sure there are better ways to spend your WEEKEND. Plus you're talking to people who have spent hundreds/thousands on wh40k material, and HUGE portions of their time. PROUD GEEKS UNITE!!!

WE CAPTURED THEM FOR CHAOS!

Hey, the GK are heroes because of this story. the SOB weren't in the kitchen, and they paid the price for it. That'll learn 'em

...what? SOMEONE has to make The God-Emperor's Sandwiches.
(Yes, this is a joke. PLEASE realize this is a joke)

Psyker sammich! It all makes sense now

... I might have found that joke funny, but for some reason I can still remember that marine's wife screaming 'Now who's in the kitchen?' as they hauled her away. She got off. Abused spouse.

The real irony was that there were enough chunks of him to fill a sandwich bag. They needed a mop for the rest.

Either he was really small or that was one hell of a sandwich bag. Everyone knows that if you want a sandwich it should be prefaced with the word "please" and done politely along with an offer to cook dinner (fire up the grill!) doesn't hurt. Unless you're the emperor in which case its, 'make me a sandwich and deliver it to me on the golden toilet or we all get eaten by daemons!'

Anyway, thanks for correcting me on the Sororitas fluff a couple of pages back. In the end my opinion on the Grey knights will likely end up being on hiatus until I get a hold of some models and start painting them.

And for the record?
Fateweaver and Mortarion are pushovers for the Grey Knights.
They're both Daemons, and the Grey Knights possess their true names. Names are power when it comes to Daemons, because it means they can be banished. Mortarion, also, in life was a pushover for most of the Astartes. His real aptitude was in his calculating mind and sheer stubbornness. He was a tactician, not a fighter by all accounts.

Angron, however, being effectively more 'mortal' than Daemon(yes, he's ascended to Daemonhood but he's also protected from psychic attack by din of him being marked by Khorne) is a different story than those two even when it comes to the Grey Knights fighting them. They're looking at a bloodthirsty combat monster who could fight every other Primarch to a standstill.
Of course he gets higher priority and more forces thrown at him than some putz who liked to dress in hoods and carry a scythe

Good to know Primarchs are pushovers
I mean a son of the Emperor, what can be considered to be a demigod essentially, with powers increased by the Chaos gods, is a pushover.

Its nice to know that just being a Grey knight automatically means that Daemons lose
I was always under the assumption that they are trained to fight them , but even with that training it was a uphill battle
Didn't know that because you apparentlly train for fighting daemons, that it means you can just roflstomp anyone out of existence

Thank you for the clarification

Actually having read the book though , its not that bad, but there are certainly wtf moments littered throughout it
I actually liked some of Draigos story, specifically his fight with M'Kar, it definitely gave off the image of an epic battle
Although for the life of me why Ward didn't stop at him being thrown into the warp and reappearing in realspace I'll never know

Coteaz was a good read, troop backgrounds were nice and by god the artwork was actually very well done
It actually made the dreadknight look good throughout the book with that artwork


Edit: The more i read this codex, the more I'm liking it
I like the way its sets out, i like some of the background here and there, I like the amazing range of choices available( I'm a CSM player so its kinda like a revelation to me honestly, I've never seen so many choices)
To be honest I'm just gonna ignore the bits of fluff that are really out of place and move past them, they are bad, but they aren't so bad that I can't ignore them
It's really not that bad of a codex I gotta say

Luco wrote:Either he was really small or that was one hell of a sandwich bag.

No, he was good sized, but I'm told she spent about a half hour 'tenderizing' his quivering bits with 45 pound rock sledge from the tool shed. The neighbors gave her about twenty minuets of screaming and pounding holes in the floor and 'then' called the police.

Seems they didn't care she killed him, but got tired of the noise.

Asuron wrote:Edit: The more i read this codex, the more I'm liking it
I like the way its sets out, i like some of the background here and there, I like the amazing range of choices available( I'm a CSM player so its kinda like a revelation to me honestly, I've never seen so many choices)
To be honest I'm just gonna ignore the bits of fluff that are really out of place and move past them, they are bad, but they aren't so bad that I can't ignore them
It's really not that bad of a codex I gotta say

Although his fluff can be Goto-esque, his crunch is filled with cheesy goodness. His books are filled with fun and viable options. I hope he gets to write the Chaos codex, as his over-the-top crunch (and perhaps even fluff) would be a good match for them.

I'm not sure who I would pick to write the Sisters of Battle. Maybe Kelly?

With Eldar, I'm willing to roll the dice and let Cruddace have a shot at it.

I think Kelly is writing the SOB codex.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Luco wrote:Either he was really small or that was one hell of a sandwich bag.

No, he was good sized, but I'm told she spent about a half hour 'tenderizing' his quivering bits with 45 pound rock sledge from the tool shed. The neighbors gave her about twenty minuets of screaming and pounding holes in the floor and 'then' called the police.

Seems they didn't care she killed him, but got tired of the noise.

That's the neighbors for ya. Apathetic almost to a fault until you bother them.

im2randomghgh wrote:From what I have seen, no other Sci-fi universe is NEARLY as in-depth as 40k, not even close. Ever try to explain the specifics of 40k to someone who knows nothing about it? I'm pretty sure there are better ways to spend your WEEKEND. Plus you're talking to people who have spent hundreds/thousands on wh40k material, and HUGE portions of their time. PROUD GEEKS UNITE!!!

Sorry!?!....I nearly swallowed my tongue when I read your "report" on modern Sci Fi.....are you for real?

Ok, first of all, WH40K has been going for what 30+ years....ok, now Infinity has been running for around 6 years now, and it has more depth and background then WH40K. See, you mustn't confuse quantity with quality....no Sci Fi setting, except maybe Mech-Warrior can compete with GW in terms of published fluff, but quality, quality and quality is the key.

You want to explain WH40K to a stranger in one sentence....its Lord of the Rings in Space, with a sprinkling of Terminator, Aliens and the Bible.....done!

If you feel WH40K is the most "in-depth" Sci Fi out there, then you need to get out more and look around, you'll be in for a surprise....and you know what, I kept my examples above to Sci Fi wargames, in respect to your actual comment about "Sci Fi universe" then here is a list of more in depth settings:

Star Gate
Star Wars
Dune
Mass Effect
Halo

I'm sure there are more!!

Halo is more in-depth? Really? I need to find me some reading materials then. I like the material they have for it but I didn't think it was more-so than 40k. Star Wars definitely, Mechwarrior is also a definite.