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It's not an argument, pretre, it's a statement of disappointment.

I hate special characters and try not to field them, so Kyrinoc and Jacobus mean nothing to me. I enjoyed fielding Inquisition units alongside my Sisters army, and I also enjoyed inducted Guard when I was allowed them. Now, I do not have those options. So, yes, thank you, there are fewer options.

Redbeard wrote:

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Penitents were already quite dangerous in CC, that was never the reason nobody ever takes them. Like Arcos and Repentia, Penitents have no survivability, and therefore never get into CC... and you can't really control where they go. Nothing has really changed with them, yet they seem to be being talked about a lot. I've only ever even heard of one person that even owns a large number of Penitents, how many Sisters players do you think are going to run out to buy $300+ worth of a mediocre/bad Heavy Slot?

Is that one person me? Anyway. The problem with penitents has always been their cost. They're survivable enough for a 50 point model. Problem is, they're currently 80 points. If running nine of them was 450 instead of 720 points, they'd be well worth it, even if none ever survived a fight.

As for the point costs, yes, a dramatic decrease in points could make them competitive (as per the Ork example). However, Orks are designed to be a horde, and there is easy access to large amounts of Boyz (Starter Box). I have ~2500pts of Sisters, if that gets dropped down well below 2000pts then I'm forced to buy ~$300-$500 more old models just to be allowed to play my army in my area... and forget about any of the bigger tournies.

When the new chaos codex came out, my 2000 point army dropped to under 1000. When the new ork codex came out, my old army (speed freeks) became unviable, and I had to retool as a horde. When the guard codex came out, every guard player I know dropped at least $300 on chimeras, and some more on valkyries.

Do you really think they write new codexes to balance the game?

GW writes codexes to sell models. This isn't going to change with sisters.

Hell, if we got new models I'd probably be dropping $300+ on them too, but I can't justify dropping that much on decade old models that I already have a ton of. How many Sisters pulling the pin in a grenade with their teeth do I really need? I can already field a unit of just that sculpt. Or buy more than the 13 Sister Rhino chassis than I already have... bleh.

And you probably are the one with 9 Penitents I'm refering to, can't remember for sure. Met another guy that owned (but rarely used) 4 too, but thats about it.

The selling models point is the only reason I think the second half will have big point reductions, it fits. Doesn't mean I'm going to be buying more ancient models though.

MadCowCrazy wrote:Kyrinov and Jacobus are not new units, they were in the 2E SoB codex. There were more SC in that on codex as well like "Saint Praxedes of Ophelia VII", Helena The Virtuous and Cardinal Armandus Helfire.

Well of course they are from the 2E SOB. They are new compared to C:WH, the book I was clearly comparing to. If you really want to compare to C: SOB 2nd though...
We had:
Canoness
Missionary
Confessor
Preacher
BS Squad
Seraphim
Frateris
Rhino
Immolator
5 Special Characters.

Umm, so yeah. A lot more variety compared to the 2nd ed codex too. Should we compare to C: CA version now?


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htj wrote:It's not an argument, pretre, it's a statement of disappointment.

I hate special characters and try not to field them, so Kyrinoc and Jacobus mean nothing to me. I enjoyed fielding Inquisition units alongside my Sisters army, and I also enjoyed inducted Guard when I was allowed them. Now, I do not have those options. So, yes, thank you, there are fewer options.

Fair enough. Sorry that you were disappointed. I didn't think anyone thought there would be more units in a WD codex and we knew that Inquisition have been on their way out for years now.
For an SOB codex, I think there are more options. If you wanted a combined inquisition codex, I'm sorry, that's been a dead man walking for a while.

Sorry you got squatted. :(

Creeping Dementia wrote:
Penitents were already quite dangerous in CC, that was never the reason nobody ever takes them. Like Arcos and Repentia, Penitents have no survivability, and therefore never get into CC... and you can't really control where they go. Nothing has really changed with them, yet they seem to be being talked about a lot. I've only ever even heard of one person that even owns a large number of Penitents, how many Sisters players do you think are going to run out to buy $300+ worth of a mediocre/bad Heavy Slot?

They used to average 4.5 attacks on the charge. The new ones average 5.5 attacks each on the charge, with ~2.4 extra (2.75 hits on average) from sustained assault. Their combat capacity roughly doubled. The problem is that their speed fell by about 40%. I have a nasty feeling their points cost won't change, making them still worthless, but they have the potential to be useful if their points properly reflect their fragility.

The problem with comparing this change to the Ork change is that Orks are good in close combat and/or come with good ranged assault weapons. Sisters have none of this, making it hard to bring their damage to bear and making them vulnerable to people just skipping through their preferred engagement range straight to close combat where they can't really fight back.

pretre wrote:Fair enough. Sorry that you were disappointed. I didn't think anyone thought there would be more units in a WD codex and we knew that Inquisition have been on their way out for years now.
For an SOB codex, I think there are more options. If you wanted a combined inquisition codex, I'm sorry, that's been a dead man walking for a while.

Sorry you got squatted. :(

I was kind of hoping that, it being the first Codex in such a long time, it would be something like an actual Codex. It was a small hope, but that doesn't make it any less disappointing. I really don't want to have to make yet another Coteaz army, but it's that now or leave the models to rot. All it would have taken, really, was frateris militia. But there you go. C'est la vie.

htj wrote:All it would have taken, really, was frateris militia. But there you go. C'est la vie.

Well, Zealots did finally get invalidated by this, since they say they can be used with C: WH, which is a shame.

What if they go crazy and the Force Org has 'Veteran Squad (see Codex: IG for details)' or some other wackiness. Wouldn't that really burn someone's bottom?
No way to know until we get both halves of the codex.

Redbeard wrote:
I hardly think that the new sisters have no teeth. Without knowing the point costs, or even wargear and options, it is way too early to claim that the army is useless.

Did any of you play orks under the old codex? 9 points/model, they had choppas (max enemy save could be 4+, for the newer readers), sluggas, the same statline as current orks, and doubled their initiative when charging.

New codex took away choppas. It changed their charge bonus, from +2I, to +1I, +1S, ensuring that they swung after marines, instead of at the same time (Sound familiar Melissia?).

Sounds like a big nerf, right? Oh, yeah, but when you look at the points cost, they dropped to 6 points each, so you could field a full 33% more for the same points. And as a result, orks are still a competitive codex, even several years after their release. They're still notching up tournament finishes. A nicely priced base unit will do that for you.

That's what's going on here. A similar point-reduction for sisters would see them at 8 or 9 points each. And at 9 points for power armour, a bolter (not toothless, not to be underrated), and BS4 is a steal. Even moreso when the unit is capable of packing multiple meltas or flamers, and has a superior running around with an eviscerator.

What if repentia get the option to take a transport? Do we know that yet? If so, now you've got a vicious counter-attack unit that's going to mess up a lot of units, apparently for a much lower point-cost than previously.

Maybe none of that is true. The point is, it's unknown. It's too early to be crying about this. Maybe next month all your tears will be valid. But they're not right now. And almost certainly, you'll have to rethink how you play the army. Big deal, that's been the case with most of 5th ed. Move on.

Firstly, please don't put words in my mouth. I never said this codex was "useless". It may be underpowered, it may be extremely bland, it may be almost completely devoid of feeling and fun, but it can still be used to play games, and heck, they can still beat Nids...

And yes, I'm currently an Ork player. The biggest complaint I heard about the new dex had less to do with Boyz, and more the loss of transports for all your Elite Ork mobs like Burna Boyz and Tankbustas. The looted wagon is (still) grossly bare bones compare to the old options, even if it is a bit more streamlined and easier to remember. I have no major complaints with the new book and actually play my Orks more than any of my other armies.

My point about lacking teeth was more that the army has completely lost its ability to adapt. I can't use Light of the Emperor to make my Sisters hold when I need them; if they break they get run down and no amount of rallying will help. I can't help my Dominions punch through heavier armor with their weapons, sure I can reroll wounds but they'll still be bouncing off of even 4+ armor for the most part. Using Faith at the right times was a major part of playing Sisters, and now it's basically a side thought that's been drastically reduced in usefulness and had all its teeth yanked with rusty pliers.

Line up this piece of gak "codex" next to anything from 5th edition, even Nids. Now try to tell me this army will still be competitive, or really even fun to play. The new dexes have been (almost) universally OTT with great options, heroics and feeling. This ... thing... is a rushed after thought. That much has already been basically admitted. They needed something to fill in while Necrons got back on schedule, and it looks like as per Matt Ward, Sisters ended up being the sacrificial lamb. Again.

pretre wrote:

Sigh...

This argument again. Of all the things that were lost in this update, variety was not it. I don't think anyone expected new units in a WD dex. That's what real dexes are for. That being said...

With the exception of the Inquisition, which was all moved to GK, the SOB/Ecclesiarchy part of the codex gained units (command squad and confessor), 2 new special characters (Uriah and Jacobus) and lost the Palantine (which we don't know is a loss until we see the points costs for Canoness).
>snip<

So... we gained units as long as we ignored that half the codex was moved over to Grey Knights then? I, for one, will lament the loss of my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as Arbites.

As to the units we "gained", they're things we could already field in another unit. They just moved them to where they should have been in the first place. The Sisters Dialogus and Sisters Hospitalers are, you guessed it, SISTERS. Why they were in an Inquisitorial Retinue instead of with ... Sisters... Well now they are in a "special" command squad. And the Ecclesiarchy stuff? Well, they're all options previously existing for a WH codex, just mashed into a new unit so we don't have to throw away our figures.

In the end, suggesting we "gained" unit options is disingenuous at best. They are options we previously had somewhere, now mashed into a single unit which costs some members their special rules, such as Death Cult Assassins losing Fearless and most importantly Infiltrate.

Creeping Dementia wrote:

And you probably are the one with 9 Penitents I'm refering to, can't remember for sure. Met another guy that owned (but rarely used) 4 too, but thats about it.

The selling models point is the only reason I think the second half will have big point reductions, it fits. Doesn't mean I'm going to be buying more ancient models though.

I would probably buy 3 boxes of Ork Killa Kanz from the thewarstore for $106.8 + shipping and handling rather than pay $315 for 9 Penitent Engines, which can only be bought via GW direct order. With a little conversion, Killa Kanz could pass off as Penitent Engines.

streamdragon wrote:Line up this piece of gak "codex" next to anything from 5th edition, even Nids. Now try to tell me this army will still be competitive, or really even fun to play. The new dexes have been (almost) universally OTT with great options, heroics and feeling. This ... thing... is a rushed after thought. That much has already been basically admitted. They needed something to fill in while Necrons got back on schedule, and it looks like as per Matt Ward, Sisters ended up being the sacrificial lamb. Again.

I don't think you can say this until you see the whole codex and actually get a chance to use it. Without points costs and the full list, you have no way of knowing whether it will be competitive yet. Wait until it is done before doom-and-glooming.

pretre wrote:So... we gained units as long as we ignored that half the codex was moved over to Grey Knights then? I, for one, will lament the loss of my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as Arbites.

You knew it was coming. Don't act surprised.

And the Ecclesiarchy stuff? Well, they're all options previously existing for a WH codex, just mashed into a new unit so we don't have to throw away our figures.

Confessors are new. I'll give you the rest.

In the end, suggesting we "gained" unit options is disingenuous at best.

SOB/Ecclesiarchy gained options. Inquisition lost options. I was very clear about that.

such as Death Cult Assassins losing Fearless and most importantly Infiltrate.

DCA were a lose/lose just like Arcos in the old codex. "Ooh, I can take 3 DCA for one slot and inflitrate them. Wait... They're each a KP? Nevermind." We'll have to wait and see if they are similarly useful in the new book or not.

Again, it is premature to judge the book since we only have half of it.


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SabrX wrote:I would probably buy 3 boxes of Ork Killa Kanz from the thewarstore for $106.8 + shipping and handling rather than pay $315 for 9 Penitent Engines, which can only be bought via GW direct order. With a little conversion, Killa Kanz could pass off as Penitent Engines.

That's a good idea. Add in a box of Flagellants (WHFB) and I bet you'd have some awesome PEs.

pretre wrote:

htj wrote:All it would have taken, really, was frateris militia. But there you go. C'est la vie.

Well, Zealots did finally get invalidated by this, since they say they can be used with C: WH, which is a shame.

What if they go crazy and the Force Org has 'Veteran Squad (see Codex: IG for details)' or some other wackiness. Wouldn't that really burn someone's bottom?
No way to know until we get both halves of the codex.

Heh, slim hope but you never know. This Codex over two months thing is really, really irritating.

Wouldnt a Concalve with Priest / Jacobus actually be a decent assault deterant and close combat unit. 9 DCA's with Jacobus, charging is 45 WS5 Initiative6 power weapon attacks at str4 with re-rolls to hit. Plus Jacobus' attacks. Add 5+ invul, FNP, stubborn and omg they better get a transport.

Or add some crusaders in there.

Depending on points ofc, seems like a nice close combat unit we never had before.

S'jet wrote:Wouldnt a Concalve with Priest / Jacobus actually be a decent assault deterant and close combat unit. 9 DCA's with Jacobus, charging is 45 WS5 Initiative6 power weapon attacks at str4 with re-rolls to hit. Plus Jacobus' attacks. Add 5+ invul, FNP, stubborn and omg they better get a transport.

Or add some crusaders in there.

Depending on points ofc, seems like a nice close combat unit we never had before.

We dont know if you will be able to take as large a squad as in the GK codex. The fluff says "Known as Battle Conclaves, these groups are necessarily small; anything larger would breach the prohibition of 'men under arms' as laid down in the Decree Passive."
To me this sounds like the max size will be 6 or some such, I'm probably just reading too much into things but it wouldn't surprise me as they can get bonuses based on the Ecclesiarch that's with them.

Good call, S'jet. Depending on points, that could be entertaining.

Anyone else notice that Seraphim fire two pistols? Who cares, right? If they can still buy inferno pistols and hand flamers in the same quantities and they are cheaper, you might see:
- 5 Seraphim, 2xDual Inferno Pistols. (4 Strength 8, AP 1 Melta Shots? Thanks!)
- 5 Seraphim, 2x Dual Hand Flamers (4 S3, AP6 Templates, reroll wounds... Meh, not as great.)


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Oh and super yay for finally getting frag, krak and bolt pistols standard. That's a big bonus.


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Ooh. Just noticed Dominions get Scouts!
Scouting Immolator with 5 girls with Meltas inside.
Move forward 12, pop smoke.
Win?


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Anyone notice that the Immolator has some fluff for 'Heavy bolters loaded with deadly incendiary rounds'?


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Repentia get fleet but also get rage. So they get more reliable extra movement but it is funnelled in a particular direction.

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread, but I feel the need to express my disappointment.

The faith system was the real enjoyable part of playing Sisters. Picking the right power, at the right time based on the situation and the number of models in the unit was a fun challenge.

Now I get a d6 number of points to spend each round and have a 1 in 3 (at worst) or a 2 in 3 (at best) chance that they'll actually activate. This is very disheartening. I'll be attempting faith powers less often and they'll successfully activate less often as well.

Looking at the rules for these, it would have made more sense to just remove the faith powers completely as using them strategically will be next to impossible.

I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

S'jet wrote:Wouldnt a Concalve with Priest / Jacobus actually be a decent assault deterant and close combat unit. 9 DCA's with Jacobus, charging is 45 WS5 Initiative6 power weapon attacks at str4 with re-rolls to hit. Plus Jacobus' attacks. Add 5+ invul, FNP, stubborn and omg they better get a transport.

Or add some crusaders in there.

Depending on points ofc, seems like a nice close combat unit we never had before.

It sounds great until you realize that they don't have grenades. In fact no member of the conclave has grenades except the priest. So if you blow up a transport to get to the juicy insides the conclave goes last. with some bad saves. Its telling that the best save in the unit may be the priest thats leading them with his Rosarius of 4++. Admittedly they won't be in that situation all the time but ask Tyranids how they like not having grenades on many of their units.

redstripe wrote:
I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

Maybe not right now, and I know it is cold comfort, but when (if?!?) the 'real' codex is released, I'm sure you'll be happy, and you'll be accused of Bandwagoning with the rest of 'em!

redstripe wrote:The faith system was the real enjoyable part of playing Sisters. Picking the right power, at the right time based on the situation and the number of models in the unit was a fun challenge.

Agreed, Faith was a lot of fun. It has gone through a number of iterations through the years though and this will not be the last one.

Now I get a d6 number of points to spend each round and have a 1 in 3 (at worst) or a 2 in 3 (at best) chance that they'll actually activate. This is very disheartening. I'll be attempting faith powers less often and they'll successfully activate less often as well.

It is a little more complicated than that. You can attempt the same power multiple times, we don't know what a Simulacrum does, you get more faith than you would before, you can't bank faith like you could before, etc. I think that you will be using faith much more often under the new system and will generally be able to get yourself to succeed. (SS is +1, so that's 4+ by default for almost every check.)

Looking at the rules for these, it would have made more sense to just remove the faith powers completely as using them strategically will be next to impossible.

That is a little over the top. Yes, the powers changed a bit. We don't know everything we need to know to make a decision yet. Play a couple games before declaring the world is over.

I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

Sorry to hear it... Maybe give it another go in a month when the rest of the article comes out.

Btw, if you don't want your sisters, feel free to mail them to me.

streamdragon wrote:
My point about lacking teeth was more that the army has completely lost its ability to adapt. I can't use Light of the Emperor to make my Sisters hold when I need them; if they break they get run down and no amount of rallying will help.

Because you've already seen the wargear section? Because you've already seen the army-wide rules? I haven't.

I can't help my Dominions punch through heavier armor with their weapons, sure I can reroll wounds but they'll still be bouncing off of even 4+ armor for the most part. Using Faith at the right times was a major part of playing Sisters, and now it's basically a side thought that's been drastically reduced in usefulness and had all its teeth yanked with rusty pliers.

Using faith will still be key to playing sisters. It just won't be the offensive key. People who learn to use the new rules will do fine.

Line up this piece of gak "codex" next to anything from 5th edition, even Nids. Now try to tell me this army will still be competitive, or really even fun to play.

You're just utterly missing the point. You Do Not Know The Point Costs Do you need me to make the text flash before you figure that out?

If a sister, with power armour and a bolter, costs two points and can be taken in squads of 50, how is that uncompetitive. Yes, that's an absurdity, but you cannot judge how competitive a force is unless you know how many points it costs to field them. You simply cannot. If I can drop 60 bolters on the table, I don't even need to get to rapid fire range to be dangerous. And if I can use one squad as bubble-wrap, knowing they'll lose and run, I can take a whole mess of shots at whatever charged them the next turn. In fact, that's more reliable than a Stubborn 9Ld to stay in combat.

The new dexes have been (almost) universally OTT with great options, heroics and feeling.

You haven't even seen the options yet.

Like I said before, you -might- be right. And if it is, I'll join you in bemoaning how awful it is. I've got a lot of sisters myself; they were my first army. But your hysterics are premature. They smack of a player who is unwilling to adapt to new tactics and strategies, and unwilling to have even a little patience to see the whole picture before throwing a tantrum.

Alpharius wrote:

redstripe wrote:
I have a beautifully painted Sisters army that I adore and I was getting really excited at a new set of rules to play them with, a reason to bring them out of the closet and put on the table again. This was a chance for Games Workshop to bring me back in as an active player in their games. They didn't succeed.

Maybe not right now, and I know it is cold comfort, but when (if?!?) the 'real' codex is released, I'm sure you'll be happy, and you'll be accused of Bandwagoning with the rest of 'em!

Now who's making comments before seeing the whole thing? This could be codex: tyranids all over again!


(in case it's not clear, this is a joke post.)

Redbeard wrote:
Because you've already seen the wargear section? Because you've already seen the army-wide rules? I haven't.

Using faith will still be key to playing sisters. It just won't be the offensive key. People who learn to use the new rules will do fine.

We've seen the army wide rules. They always lead the unit description/background section and we have that. What we are missing is gear, points, and options.

As for faith, it won't be the offensive key. Or the defensive key. Or the key to much of anything as it is generally weak, and worse, generally unreliable. I believe that Acts will have to be treated as happy accidents rather than tools in a tactical plan.

Prepare to give this WD stinker a wide berth

The Grog wrote:What we are missing is gear, points, and options.

Oh, just that?

As for faith, it won't be the offensive key. Or the defensive key. Or the key to much of anything as it is generally weak, and worse, generally unreliable. I believe that Acts will have to be treated as happy accidents rather than tools in a tactical plan.

You really can't make that determination yet. Right now, most faith checks are on a 4+, 3+ with casualties. Wargear is going to be key. Specifically?

Simulacrum Imperialis is going to be key. Laud Hailer is going to be key. What if Laud Hailers are +2 to Faith rolls within 12"? What if Simulacrums are +1 to all faith rolls for the unit or a reroll for the unit? What if each Simulacrum gives you +1 faith per turn, in addition to your d6?

We just do not know. So stop saying it is the end of the world until we do. If SI and LH are just fluff and give no benefit, we will all wail and gnash with you. Until then, chill a bit.

The Grog wrote:The new Engine is quite dangerous at short range and in melee combat.

It's also slower.

Redbeard wrote:Tunnel vision much?

Would you say the same thing to Marine players who were mad at GW if they hypothetically nerfed them to T3?

pretre wrote:- Three, Martyrdom is gone. I'm amazed that M isn't screaming from the rooftops about this one. (Okay, maybe I'm not amazed...) Martyrdom is, in fact, discouraged from what I saw. Keep your characters, they keep you more faithful.

Why would I? I've always despised the Martyrdom rules. It encourages people to throw away faithful units.

pretre wrote:This argument again. Of all the things that were lost in this update, variety was not it. I don't think anyone expected new units in a WD dex.

While I don't entirely disagree with you, it's also worth noting that this is also the same issue of White Dwarf that provided a brand new monster to Vampire Counts. VC received a new Zombie Dragon boxed set, and the set can alternatively be built as a creature called a 'Terrorgeist'. The rules for the terrorgeist are in the new White Dwarf.

So this issue did have new stuff in it... just not for the Codex.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:- Three, Martyrdom is gone. I'm amazed that M isn't screaming from the rooftops about this one. (Okay, maybe I'm not amazed...) Martyrdom is, in fact, discouraged from what I saw. Keep your characters, they keep you more faithful.

Why would I? I've always despised the Martyrdom rules. It encourages people to throw away faithful units.

Screaming in happiness. I was surprised you weren't happy. Silly me.

Redbeard wrote:
Because you've already seen the wargear section? Because you've already seen the army-wide rules? I haven't.

Using faith will still be key to playing sisters. It just won't be the offensive key. People who learn to use the new rules will do fine.

You're just utterly missing the point. You Do Not Know The Point Costs Do you need me to make the text flash before you figure that out?

If a sister, with power armour and a bolter, costs two points and can be taken in squads of 50, how is that uncompetitive. Yes, that's an absurdity, but you cannot judge how competitive a force is unless you know how many points it costs to field them. You simply cannot. If I can drop 60 bolters on the table, I don't even need to get to rapid fire range to be dangerous. And if I can use one squad as bubble-wrap, knowing they'll lose and run, I can take a whole mess of shots at whatever charged them the next turn. In fact, that's more reliable than a Stubborn 9Ld to stay in combat.

You haven't even seen the options yet.

Like I said before, you -might- be right. And if it is, I'll join you in bemoaning how awful it is. I've got a lot of sisters myself; they were my first army. But your hysterics are premature. They smack of a player who is unwilling to adapt to new tactics and strategies, and unwilling to have even a little patience to see the whole picture before throwing a tantrum.

1. Yes, we HAVE seen the army wide rules! That's the page that explains how to use Acts of Faith, what Shield of Faith is and how to generate Faith. The page is literally labeled "Army Special Rules"! What more are you expecting? A giant section in the Wargear titled "Items that completely and utterly change the previous page on 'Army Special Rules' "? They're right there, in black and ... slightly pinkish.

2. Faith is pathetic now. There are no two ways about it. You get d6 points per turn, and you can only use them during YOUR turn. So no Fearless Celestians when your opponent charges you and tears you a new one. No bonus strength or bonus initiative or anything. Faith basically HAS to be used offensively, because the rules prevent any sort of defensive use beyond auto-rallying your Battle Sisters (assuming they didn't get caught in a sweeping advance if falling back from melee.)

3. I am well aware I don't know the points cost. You can repeat that statement as many times as you like, and it will still not change certain elements about the army. It won't make Faith any better. It might make a unit cheaper to field, but that doesn't improve it's punching power at all. All it means is I get to plunk down MORE units, despite having the SAME amount of Faith points (the army's only real mechanic outside of the generic) to spend.

4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given. It is not unreasonable or hysterical at all to look at what we have and say "we just suffered with this new 'dex." True, we haven't seen the wargear or points costs yet. True, there may still be items that make up for some of the shortcomings of the list presented. We can look and see that, no matter how cheap they may get, Penitent Engines will still be uncontrollable and fragile, thanks to Rage and Open-Topped F11. We can look at Battle Sisters and say "Man, their offensive power went down, thanks to the loss of Divine Guidance". We can look at Celestians and Seraphim and say "Man, the downgrade to I3 stinks." None of this is hysterics, and when you have more and more of these "Man, ..." any rational mind is able to step back and say "Man, this army just got a bit weaker." Is there always the option of some last minute wargear piece that makes the whole thing OP? Sure. Is there always the option we'll see "Book of St. Sheenus - 5 pts. You win." sure. But are you really going to count on them, when what we've seen so far is so pathetic? I don't.

pretre wrote:You really can't make that determination yet. Right now, most faith checks are on a 4+, 3+ with casualties. Wargear is going to be key. Specifically?

Yes we can. The acts of faith in general are pretty worthless now.

What, you want to make Celestians S4 and fearless? Too bad they're still just gonna lose combat to any serious assault unit take extra casualties because of fearless. And no unit other than Battle Sisters can use Light of the Emperor-- no unit other than Retributors can use Divine Guidance. Only units with a Canoness attached can use The Passion, and it's inferior to what it used to be.

Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Melissia wrote:

The Grog wrote:The new Engine is quite dangerous at short range and in melee combat.

It's also slower.

It also has rage now, real rage, which sucks. It also has 2 x Heavy Flamer instead of 2xFlamers that count as 1 HF, which is good. It also has a 6++ and an extra attack, which is good. It also generates extra attacks from unsaved wounds, which is also good.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:You really can't make that determination yet. Right now, most faith checks are on a 4+, 3+ with casualties. Wargear is going to be key. Specifically?

Yes we can. The acts of faith in general are pretty worthless now.

What, you want to make Celestians S4 and fearless? Too bad they're still just gonna lose combat to any serious assault unit take extra casualties because of fearless. And no unit other than Battle Sisters can use Light of the Emperor-- no unit other than Retributors can use Divine Guidance. Only units with a Canoness attached can use The Passion, and it's inferior to what it used to be.

Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Also double check the rules on Faith:

Faith Points
At the start of each of your Movement phases, you generate d6 Faith Points.
...
Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost.

So no Faith during your opponents turn. No Cannoness boosted I and Hatred. No Celestian boosted S and Fearless. No Battle Sisters rerolling '1's to hit. No Repentia getting to strike back despite dying. No Faith, nothing.

streamdragon wrote:4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given. It is not unreasonable or hysterical at all to look at what we have and say "we just suffered with this new 'dex." True, we haven't seen the wargear or points costs yet. True, there may still be items that make up for some of the shortcomings of the list presented. We can look and see that, no matter how cheap they may get, Penitent Engines will still be uncontrollable and fragile, thanks to Rage and Open-Topped F11. We can look at Battle Sisters and say "Man, their offensive power went down, thanks to the loss of Divine Guidance". We can look at Celestians and Seraphim and say "Man, the downgrade to I3 stinks." None of this is hysterics, and when you have more and more of these "Man, ..." any rational mind is able to step back and say "Man, this army just got a bit weaker." Is there always the option of some last minute wargear piece that makes the whole thing OP? Sure. Is there always the option we'll see "Book of St. Sheenus - 5 pts. You win." sure. But are you really going to count on them, when what we've seen so far is so pathetic? I don't.

Under Battle Sister Squad:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for a Melta or Flamer for 5 pts each.

Under Celestians:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for BP/Blessed Weapon for 10 pts each.

There. I just made them well worth it. We have no way of knowing until we get the rest of the codex.