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**Melissia**

So? All of that requires it actually get into close range. Being slower, it can't do that as easily.

As a side note: People need to grow up and stop accusing people who don't like what they see of panicking, or of hysteria, or of thinking the sky is falling. Frankly you're breaking rule number one here. Yes, you too redbeard.

**pretre**

streamdragon wrote:
Also double check the rules on Faith:

Faith Points
At the start of each of your Movement phases, you generate d6 Faith Points.
...
Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost.

So no Faith during your opponents turn. No Cannoness boosted I and Hatred. No Celestian boosted S and Fearless. No Battle Sisters rerolling '1's to hit. No Repentia getting to strike back despite dying. No Faith, nothing.

Saw that and it is disappointing. But we really don't know what else is in there. Again, wait for the doomsaying.

**streamdragon**

pretre wrote:
streamdragon wrote:4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given. It is not unreasonable or hysterical at all to look at what we have and say "we just suffered with this new 'dex." True, we haven't seen the wargear or points costs yet. True, there may still be items that make up for some of the shortcomings of the list presented. We can look and see that, no matter how cheap they may get, Penitent Engines will still be uncontrollable and fragile, thanks to Rage and Open-Topped F11. We can look at Battle Sisters and say "Man, their offensive power went down, thanks to the loss of Divine Guidance". We can look at Celestians and Seraphim and say "Man, the downgrade to I3 stinks." None of this is hysterics, and when you have more and more of these "Man, ..." any rational mind is able to step back and say "Man, this army just got a bit weaker." Is there always the option of some last minute wargear piece that makes the whole thing OP? Sure. Is there always the option we'll see "Book of St. Sheenus - 5 pts. You win." sure. But are you really going to count on them, when what we've seen so far is so pathetic? I don't.

Under Battle Sister Squad:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for a Melta or Flamer for 5 pts each.

Under Celestians:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for BP/Blessed Weapon for 10 pts each.

There. I just made them well worth it. We have no way of knowing until we get the rest of the codex.

**pretre**

Melissia wrote:So? All of that requires it actually get into close range. Being slower, it can't do that as easily.

Sure. That's a given. Sisters are still a short range army.

As a side note: People need to grow up and stop accusing people who don't like what they see of panicking, or of hysteria, or of thinking the sky is falling. Frankly you're breaking rule number one here. Yes, you too redbeard.

LMFAO. So when accusing people of not Being Polite, you tell them they are being immature... Nicely done.

Maybe it isn't breaking Rule #1, because you are actually panicking and acting like the sky is falling when we only have half a book. Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's why no one is getting hit with the banhammer for asking for some calmer tones until we see the points and wargear sections.

**Melissia**

pretre wrote:Maybe it isn't breaking Rule #1, because you are actually panicking and acting like the sky is falling

No.

pretre wrote:Frankly, I'm pretty sure that's why no one is getting hit with the banhammer for asking for some calmer tones until we see the points and wargear sections.

Actually, the mods already have posted a warning in this therad.

You're not being "calm", you're being snidely condescending, and disrespectful.

**pretre**

streamdragon wrote:
pretre wrote:
Under Battle Sister Squad:
Any number of Battle Sisters may trade their Bolter for a Melta or Flamer for 5 pts each.
There. I just made them well worth it. We have no way of knowing until we get the rest of the codex.

Facepalm all you want, but you don't know. Without the points costs, anything could happen. 8 points a piece with 5 upgrades per squad of 5 would certainly make a lot of people stop worrying about just having one AoF per squad.

**streamdragon**

pretre wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
Also double check the rules on Faith:

Faith Points
At the start of each of your Movement phases, you generate d6 Faith Points.
...
Any Faith Points that are unused at the end of your turn are lost.

So no Faith during your opponents turn. No Cannoness boosted I and Hatred. No Celestian boosted S and Fearless. No Battle Sisters rerolling '1's to hit. No Repentia getting to strike back despite dying. No Faith, nothing.

Saw that and it is disappointing. But we really don't know what else is in there. Again, wait for the doomsaying.

To be more useful than my last post:

Again: if the solution to the army's problem is "wargear will fix it", then that doesn't really change the issues at hand. IG don't need a Vox to use Orders, it just makes it easier to do. SM don't need anything for ATSKNF, they just get it in its working form. Nid units aren't forced to purchase a biomorph just to use Synapse.

You seem to keep thinking Wargear and point costs will drastically change the plethora of nerfs that have been showcased. If you'd like to keep your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalala it's going to be okay", then I don't know what else to say. Your last ... "fix" ... was so unrealistic I was literally at a loss for a response.

**pretre**

streamdragon wrote:Again: if the solution to the army's problem is "wargear will fix it", then that doesn't really change the issues at hand. IG don't need a Vox to use Orders, it just makes it easier to do. SM don't need anything for ATSKNF, they just get it in its working form. Nid units aren't forced to purchase a biomorph just to use Synapse.

No, but if you just saw the Army rules section and didn't see that IG could buy Lascannons, and Heavy Weapons etc in 3s, blah blah blah, like you can in the points cost section, you might think they aren't as good as they are. In fact, Infantry Platoons as a whole look pretty lackluster until you get to the army list section and see everything that they can get and the costs.

You seem to keep thinking Wargear and point costs will drastically change the plethora of nerfs that have been showcased. If you'd like to keep your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalala it's going to be okay", then I don't know what else to say. Your last ... "fix" ... was so unrealistic I was literally at a loss for a response.

It was supposed to be unrealistic. It was an example. I don't really think that's what's going to be there but guess what. I don't know. Neither do you. We won't know until the 2nd half comes out and tells us.

**Melissia**

The problem, Pretre, isn't that we can't get enough Acts of Faith off.

The problem is the new Acts of Faith suck. As I noted, why would you EVER want to use the Celestian one? Anywhere that it's beneficial to use said Act of faith, the Celestians would already have won combat even without it. Anywhere else, it's more likely to harm the squad than help. Why can't Seraphim regroup after being routed? They're assault veterans, they shouldn't be more likely to run off the table than Battle Sisters. Why can't Battle Sisters use Divine Guidance anymore? That's where the Act of Faith would be most useful!

Etc. Frankly, I could withstand the incredibly stupid, poorly designed d6-based system if the Acts of Faith were actually useful.

What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

**pretre**

Melissia wrote:The problem, Pretre, isn't that we can't get enough Acts of Faith off.

I'm still unsure about this. 3.5 on average is still a lot of faith per turn. I never used to use more than 4 in any given turn. I'll have to see how it plays out.

The problem is the new Acts of Faith suck.

Arguable. I haven't used them yet.

As I noted, why would you EVER want to use the Celestian one?

+1 Str and Fearless?
Assaulty Squad in front of your lines that you just knocked out of its transport. You don't want it to assault X but don't have enough shooting to kill it off. You pop off that act of faith and charge. You live and they don't get to assault their choice because you're sticking until at least their turn.

Why can't Seraphim regroup after being routed?

Because they didn't get that act of faith. Is this a trick question?

Why can't Battle Sisters use Divine Guidance anymore?

Because they didn't get that act of faith. Is this a trick question?

What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

Add a Canoness.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Serious answers for why X didn't get X... Because their role in the list has changed?

The designers decided that having every unit in the army be a tarpit wasn't what they wanted?

**Melissia**

pretre wrote:
Melissia wrote:The problem, Pretre, isn't that we can't get enough Acts of Faith off.

I'm still unsure about this. 3.5 on average is still a lot of faith per turn. I never used to use more than 4 in any given turn. I'll have to see how it plays out.

I said "Isn't." I can see you'll get the opportunity to use Acts of Faith frequently enough. The problem is that the Acts of Faith suck, so you wouldn't really WANT to use them.

pretre wrote:Arguable. I haven't used them yet.

I've played enough that I don't necessarily need to.

pretre wrote:Assaulty Squad in front of your lines that you just knocked out of its transport. You don't want it to assault X but don't have enough shooting to kill it off. You pop off that act of faith and charge.

Then you lose combat and take extra wounds, possibly losing the entire squad because of it.

pretre wrote:Because they didn't get that act of faith. Is this a trick question?

You're not answering the right question. Are you doing this on purpose?

What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

Add a Canoness.

**pretre**

Look at what some units do get.

Seraphim get wound rerolls and BS get hit rerolls. So BS get to be quasi-BS5 for a faith point and Seraphim get to make sure all those templates they drop on you do their wounds.

I really think people are underestimating the fact that faith is every turn, 3.5 powers a turn. You want to use it all the time.

Plus, and I know I might have said this before, we really don't know what else we're missing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I said "Isn't."

I failed to read, my bad. lol

I've played enough that I don't necessarily need to.

Oh come on. You played enough of another army list to say that this new army list, that you haven't even seen in its entirety is bad. Pull the other one.

Then you lose combat and take extra wounds, possibly losing the entire squad because of it.

And if you weren't fearless, you lost combat and got swept. This gives you a better chance.

You're not answering the right question. Are you doing this on purpose?

Two answers. 1) I learned it from watching you. 2) I answered them for real below that.

So they want to make the army suck ass instead?

I don't know. I guess we'll find out when the second half comes out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not every unit is a tarpit. Previously, they'd have to use ALL the Acts of faith to make just ONE unit into a tarpit. Now? No unit is a tarpit. All units get rolled over in close combat.

You had to use 1 act of faith each turn to make a unit a tarpit. Invuln with BoSL. That made every unit in the army below 7 models a tarpit. Not sure what C:WH you were using.

**Melissia**

pretre wrote:Seraphim get wound rerolls and BS get hit rerolls. So BS get to be quasi-BS5 for a faith point and Seraphim get to make sure all those templates they drop on you do their wounds.

On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test. So not only are Seraphim far inferior in close combat now, they're also less mobile too, only able to get Hit and Run off half the time instead of all of the time. And don't say Canoness-- no, that would mean they couldn't Hit and Run at all, nevermind the fact that you can't use Acts of Faith at the beginning of an opponent's phases anymore.

On Battle Sister: So what if they get re-rolled to-hits? That's still inferior to Divine Guidance in my view. A re-rolled bolter wound still has to deal with FNP and armor saves. AP1 bolter wounds don't.

pretre wrote:And if you weren't fearless, you lost combat and got swept. This gives you a better chance.

Somethign they wouldn't have to deal with if the army list didn't suck and let them have Stubborn instead like they used to.

pretre wrote:I don't know. I guess we'll find out when the second half comes out.

As contradictory as it might be given the army in question, I don't believe in waiting for miracles.

pretre wrote:You had to use 1 act of faith each turn

Phase. Each assault phase you'd have to use it. So two for every game turn.

**pretre**

Melissia wrote:On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test.

According to what you have seen so far. If they're 12 points a piece and can upgrade 1 out of every 3, then they aren't quite as inferior. You're going off on two factors when you don't see the whole picture. Maybe you're right and they are strictly inferior, but we won't know until the next WD is out.

So not only are Seraphim far inferior in close combat now, they're also less mobile too, only able to get Hit and Run off half the time instead of all of the time.

Purity Seals: 5 points, Get +1 to your Hit and Run roll. Quite possible that they are entirely nerfed with nothing redeeming coming, but also possible that they are buffed.

nevermind the fact that you can't use Acts of Faith at the beginning of an opponent's phases anymore.

That does suck, but we'll see how it shakes out in the long run.

On Battle Sister: So what if they get re-rolled to-hits? That's still inferior to Divine Guidance in my view. A re-rolled bolter wound still has to deal with FNP and armor saves. AP1 bolter wounds don't.

Sure, I'll miss DG. It sucks that we don't have it anymore. A little early to give up on the whole army until we see the rest though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:And if you weren't fearless, you lost combat and got swept. This gives you a better chance.
Somethign they wouldn't have to deal with if the army list didn't suck and let them have Stubborn instead like they used to.

Gee, if only there was a wargear item that Sisters traditionally got that could give them stubborn. Oh well...

pretre wrote:You had to use 1 act of faith each turn

Phase. Each assault phase you'd have to use it. So two for every game turn.

**Melissia**

There's a difference between possible and likely. You keep giving dumb examples that fall into the former but are extremely far from the latter. I am not going to dignify them by responding specifically to each and every one.

**pretre**

Melissia wrote:There's a difference between possible and likely. You keep giving dumb examples that fall into the former but are extremely far from the latter. I am not going to dignify them by responding specifically to each and every one.

Oh, so my speculation is 'dumb' and your speculation is good. Got it. Keep it classy, M.

My speculation is just speculation. I'm giving examples. Guess what, I'm not a codex writer so chances of me being right are near 0. But my point stands, any number of things can happen in the second half of the codex. We don't know until it comes out.

**winterman**

I agree with some, it's very premature to pass judgement before seeing the actual army list or wargear descriptions. If celestians are troops, 5-10 per squad, 12 points a peice and 2 specials per 5 and access to a TL-MM immolater for 75 points then they will be amazing for mech msu, I3 or no. I don't think that is reaching at all considering other 5ed codexes.

**Melissia**

pretre wrote:Oh, so my speculation is 'dumb' and your speculation is good.

If I speculated that a Martian Muslim named Hassif Bin Laden who ran on the platform of "everyone will be enslaved to my will!" would be the next president of the United States of America, that would indeed be dumb speculation.

Yours is on average roughly equivalent to that. Very unrealistic expectations of what is to come.

**andrewm9**

On the whole tarpit thing, Sisters do not have a tarpit unit anymore. Seraphim definitely aren't it in any case with some improvement to Hit and Run! or the ability to improve their initiative on the oppoenents turn. So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

**pretre**

winterman wrote:I agree with some, it's very premature to pass judgement before seeing the actual army list or wargear descriptions. If celestians are troops, 5-10 per squad, 12 points a peice and 2 specials per 5 and access to a TL-MM immolater for 75 points then they will be amazing for mech msu, I3 or no. I don't think that is reaching at all considering other 5ed codexes.

I agree. We'll have to wait and see.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

andrewm9 wrote:On the whole tarpit thing, Sisters do not have a tarpit unit anymore.

That we aware of. Books may still be available and sisters may be cheap enough to make bubble wrap squads. We don't know.

Seraphim definitely aren't it in any case with some improvement to Hit and Run! or the ability to improve their initiative on the oppoenents turn. So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score.

Interesting to know that I5 thing. Wasn't aware of that.

**Melchiour**

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

**Manchu**

I wonder: Could we possibly avoid using words like "dumb" to criticize other people's points? I mean, simply saying something is "dumb" isn't very smart in and of itself. A smarter reply would be to explain why you think another user's post is "dumb." Of course, that presumes that you actually want to have a discussion here (on the forum) rather than just wading in, throwing around a lot of opinions regardless of how insulting they might be, and otherwise making a spectacle of yourself. But in that case, you'd be a troll and be breaking Dakka's rules. You see, even when you technically attack the argument and not the poster you can still obviously be attacking the user. It's obvious to that user, it's obvious to other users, and it's obvious to moderators. Oh, and it will get your account suspended as per the rules you agreed to abide by when you signed up.

On that same note, calling someone's thoughts "hysterics," claiming that their opinion is tantamount to saying "the sky is falling," or dismissing them as being in "panic mode" are all pretty rude, too. I know we all want to be pithy but this kind of stuff is pretty well flamebait and can also get your account suspended.

So, that's just a thought guys. I'll leave you to it.

**pretre**

Melchiour wrote:
andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Crisis suits have Hit and Run? How did I miss that?

**winterman**

On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test.

Faith is the only thing that negatively affects serpahim in my opinion. I3 is not that big a deal when you kill 3-4 marines just from pre-assault shooting without faith. With faith attempt serpahim should kill on average 5 marines.

Seriously, losing a couple of S3 attacks from early casualties is minor compared to the damage they can do pre-assault. Assuming 10 man MEq assault squad with fist and meltas (typical) vs 10 seraphim with 2 inferno and eviscerator (likey same cost as the asm if rumors are true), seraphim can easily go toe to toe with them due to pre-assault shooting -- and will more likely push combat or win.

**Melchiour**

pretre wrote:
Crisis suits have Hit and Run? How did I miss that?

It's an upgrade. . .that no one ever takes

**SabrX**

Indeed, it's called Vectored retro-thrusters. It's popular among "Ninja Tau" players.

**streamdragon**

Posting from my phone, so apologies for the lack of a quote. While it is possible for the next section to contain anything, I suppose the main difference Pretre between our schools of thought is that you seem to ne looking at this new list in a vaccuum, without any precedant or existing examples. Some of us, however, are not. You are correct in that the new pages could contain anything, but realistically we can expect some things and exclude others. Looking at the IG infantry platoon entry isn't a perfect picture, but I can combine what I see with what I know (cheap cost, access to certain special/heavy weapons) and get a picture extremely close to reality. It is no different here. You can keep saying "wargear might change it" until you're blue in the face but you've got little to nothing to base that on while the existing books already support my side.

**AzureDeath**

I like what I've read so far and can't wait for part 2 but still won't play with them until its all out. I mainly just want new sisters in plastic, dunno why they aren't releasing any with the new WD dex.

**pretre**

streamdragon wrote: You can keep saying "wargear might change it" until you're blue in the face but you've got little to nothing to base that on while the existing books already support my side.

Okay, you want realistic guesses. Here they are:
- Book of St Lucius - Stubborn for the unit. Based on existing wargear in C:WH.
- Simulacrum Imperialis - Roll one extra dice for faith checks on this unit. Based on existing wargear in C:WH.
- Laud Hailer - All enemy units within 12" are -1 Ld. Multiple Laud Hailers are cumulative. Extrapolated from existing wargear in C:WH.

Below are based in the way books are trending already in 5th.
Battle Sisters, 10pts each with built in F,K and Bolt Pistols. 1 Special per 5. 35 pt Rhinos, 45 pt Immos with 25 pt upgrade for MM.
Dominions, 10 pts each with built in F,K and BP. 4 specials per 5. Melta Bombs purchaseable. 35 pt Rhinos, 45 pt Immos with 25 pt upgrade for MM.
etc so on.

Those are all kind of big deals that could go a long way towards softening the blow of changes in faith and making the list effective. Will that be what's in the 2nd half? No idea, guess we'll have to wait to find out.

**winterman**

So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Mawloc has hit and run with I4.
A single tau suit can have I3 hit and run via a special suit upgrade.
(Arguably) a marine unit getting hit and run from dante or khan would need to test on I4.