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"Sisters are done until a true codex comes out. The WD codex has failed miserably."

Attributed to....

-Deadshane
Vet 40k player since Rogue Trader (just a tad familiar with 40k)
Veteran Sisters player of every Sisters codex since then(extremely familiar w/sisters)
2007 Adepticon RTT undefeated top sisters player(I know what I'm doing when I put them on the table)

ALSO

-Stormboy97
Most GT overall wins in the United States
Avid sisters player

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Ok I stand corrected. Crisis suits have other options for leaving combat as well at the moment with ejection systems that are automatic right?

Deadshane1 wrote:"Sisters are done until a true codex comes out. The WD codex has failed miserably."

I appreciate the depth of your experience, but I think you're being a bit premature as the whole codex isn't even out yet.

andrewm9 wrote:

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Ok I stand corrected. Crisis suits have other options for leaving combat as well at the moment with ejection systems that are automatic right?

Only works against shooting and you basically get a 1 wound no save fire warrior in place of your suit.

andrewm9 wrote:On the whole tarpit thing, Sisters do not have a tarpit unit anymore. Seraphim definitely aren't it in any case with some improvement to Hit and Run! or the ability to improve their initiative on the oppoenents turn. So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

I'm starting to wonder if the designers are working on the idea that the 'Codex' will have potential tarpits, and other assault units, while the Sisters themselves won't - hear me out, before crucifying the plebe, because my fuzzy logic takes a while to meander to its conclusion.

We know that the Sisters Dialogus are described as "skilled orators whose amplified voices can embolden the spirits of nearby troops", and the only thing special about the Dialogus is she's listed as having a Laud Hailer in her wargear. We also know that, in this meta, Sisters have largely been a mechanised force, and most 'competing' forces have a large number of Exorcists, Immies and Rhinos backing them up (while the rest of us have spent a small fortune on Repressors we now know we still won't be able to use - but I digress), and all of those vehicles (currently) can be equipped with Laud Hailers.

What if the idea is that Laud Hailers generate Stubborn bubbles? That the new BoSL is actually the nearest tank? 5th Edition allows squads to take a dedicated transport they can't fit into - they just can't mount up, and the transport can't begin the game carrying any other unit, so 20-woman Battle Sister squads could be backed up by an Immolator that gave them Stubborn, or positioned next to one of our rear echelon Exorcists.

Let's take the idea further, and posit a couple of (I hope) not too off-the-wall suggestions. First, let's say that Ecclesiarchy Conclaves are capped at 10, and can take a dedicated transport. That transport will have to be a Sororitas Rhino, since Chimeras look to have gone the way of the dodo. Let's also say that the naff-statted Preacher can take a Conclave and is an Elite, rather than an HQ - like C:BA lists Reclusiarchs and Chaplains in the same block, despite one being HQ and the other being Elite.

So, a squad of 10 Crusaders, going off Codex: Grey Knights, can be expected to cost <200 points including a Rhino with Laud Hailer. You now, hypothetically, have a 3++ Stubborn tarpit which drops 20 power weapon attacks on a charge. Let's say you want something swift and brutal in close combat, rather than a tarpit - something that'll kill the enemy before it gets a chance to strike back. Uriah Jacobus with 9 DCAs will give you 45 power weapon attacks (WS5, rerollable misses, S4 @ I6), while Stubborn and rocking FNP (on top of a 4++/5++). Let's say that's overkill - you're fighting Guard, not Space Marines, and just need a line-breaker. 10 Arco-Flagellants dumped out of a Rhino with Laud Hailer - 50 WS5 S4 (weird nerf - should be S5, going of C:GK) attacks @ I3, Stubborn with FNP.

Looking at it from this direction, it might be that the new idea to 'balance' the army is to have the Battle Sisters grind the enemy from middle-range with bolter and special-weapon spam, squads of melta Dominions outflanking in T-L MM Immolators, Exorcists (which I hope will get Rending to address the Glancing AP14 issue) raining fire on enemy artillery, and the sharp end of the army is actually populated by Conclave squads rather than either Seraphim or Celestians - the former being kicked out of the army to make way for Dominions (which is gutting for me, since I love the sculpts) while the latter is a 'last line of defense' for the Battle Sister squads if everything goes ploin-shaped.

I'm not saying it's a good design philosophy, but looking at what's been released so far, it's the only one I can think of that would make 'sense' from the perspective of making a competitive force out of what remains from C:WH. The new Faith system is a joke compared to the old Faith system - but perhaps their 'design goals' are that we no longer rely on Faith, and merely consider it a 'Oh, sweet, a Faith ability popped', compared to the old days where timing of Acts of Faith determined an entire battle.

winterman wrote:

So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Mawloc has hit and run with I4.
A single tau suit can have I3 hit and run via a special suit upgrade.
(Arguably) a marine unit getting hit and run from dante or khan would need to test on I4.

That is still way better than a 3 in case of the Mawloc, Khan and Dante. Perhaps I should have said 4 instead as I had not checked the Mawloc, but did on the Lictor, Dante, Marbo, Slaaneshi daemons, Hellions, Warp Spiders with an Exarch, etc. Those units have an initative of 5 or 6. I failed to realize (duh) that the units that attach to Khan and Dante would be reduced to 4 for testing sake. So 2 of 11 units have a 3 or less. I guess 3 of 12 now do. It still sucks and not just for Seraphim


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

Melchiour wrote:

andrewm9 wrote: So of all the units in the game with hit and run only one other than Seraphim has less 5 for its initiative score. That would be deffkoptas who are fairly durable and have some other special rules that always work.

Tau Crisis suits can take hit or run and are only I3.

Ok I stand corrected. Crisis suits have other options for leaving combat as well at the moment with ejection systems that are automatic right?

Only works against shooting and you basically get a 1 wound no save fire warrior in place of your suit.

Yes but doesn't the wehole squad he's attached to get away as well?

andrewm9 wrote:

Yes but doesn't the wehole squad he's attached to get away as well?

Just a single model. Can only take one seat per army.

Mythal wrote:What if the idea is that Laud Hailers generate Stubborn bubbles? That the new BoSL is actually the nearest tank? 5th Edition allows squads to take a dedicated transport they can't fit into - they just can't mount up, and the transport can't begin the game carrying any other unit, so 20-woman Battle Sister squads could be backed up by an Immolator that gave them Stubborn, or positioned next to one of our rear echelon Exorcists.

Very interesting.

That would certainly be a cool way to do things.

actually put some teeth back into the Codex.

Melissia wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Tunnel vision much?

Would you say the same thing to Marine players who were mad at GW if they hypothetically nerfed them to T3?

If they posted it over and over and over, yes.

I've had it happen to my armies before, it will happen to other armies in the future. My orks went from being able to strike at I4 when they charged marines, to swinging at I3 when they charged marines. And they don't have a 3+ save to absorb the incoming blows.

Know what? I adapted. I learned to use the new rules.

streamdragon wrote:
1. Yes, we HAVE seen the army wide rules! That's the page that explains how to use Acts of Faith, what Shield of Faith is and how to generate Faith. The page is literally labeled "Army Special Rules"! What more are you expecting? A giant section in the Wargear titled "Items that completely and utterly change the previous page on 'Army Special Rules' "? They're right there, in black and ... slightly pinkish.

I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm not too worried about it, because without seeing point costs, and, yes, the wargear, it's not that important as a stand-alone item.

3. I am well aware I don't know the points cost. You can repeat that statement as many times as you like, and it will still not change certain elements about the army. It won't make Faith any better. It might make a unit cheaper to field, but that doesn't improve it's punching power at all. All it means is I get to plunk down MORE units, despite having the SAME amount of Faith points (the army's only real mechanic outside of the generic) to spend.

Okay, so how is fielding 60 bolters not more punching power than fielding 50? Maybe not more in one unit, but more as an army. How is fielding six units with flamer/melta not more punching power than five? Point costs matter. If you can't see that, you're not worth having a discussion about a point-based game with.

4. Again, this isn't hysterics. It's a rational look at what we've been given.

No, it isn't. Because you cannot draw a rational conclusion about something based on impartial information. Any conclusion you draw about the viability of this codex based on reading half of it is irrational.

Melissia wrote:Battle Sisters are now offensively weaker than they were before. Thus why people are saying they no longer have any teeth.

Same argument as orks. The individual ork boy is now offensively weaker than he was in 3rd ed. Units of ork boyz, by comparison, are point-for-point stronger. You don't know the point cost, you cannot make a rational statement about whether the army is stronger or weaker. If you wish to compare individual models, that's fine, but once you start getting into the viability of the army, as a whole, you need the whole picture, which you do not have.

Melissia wrote:
As a side note: People need to grow up and stop accusing people who don't like what they see of panicking, or of hysteria, or of thinking the sky is falling. Frankly you're breaking rule number one here. Yes, you too redbeard.

And here I thought it was the people that have remained calm and patient who were acting like grown-ups.

Melissia wrote:What I can't withstand are I3 Celestians and Seraphim

I hadn't heard that before. Really? What is it about their I3 that bothers you?

Melissia wrote:On Seraphim: Big deal. They're also vastly inferior from the Seraphim we had before, because of the loss of I4 and the loss of our Hit and Run rule which made us not have to make an initiative test.

Ignoring the change to Hit&Run, which really just normalizes this army with all the others, (I mean, my deffkoptas have I2 and hit&run), and you're upset about I3? I could have sworn I heard that somewhere else.

On Battle Sister: So what if they get re-rolled to-hits? That's still inferior to Divine Guidance in my view. A re-rolled bolter wound still has to deal with FNP and armor saves. AP1 bolter wounds don't.

Given 60 bolter shots at some typical targets, with bold representing the better option:

Terminators:
Vs. T4 2+: No act: 3.33 re-rolling hits: 4.44 kills, divine guidance: 6.66 kills
Vs. T4 2+ in cover: No act: 3.33 re-rolling hits: 4.44 kills, divine guidance: 5.55 kills

Marines:
Vs. T4 3+: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 11.11 kills
Vs. T4 3+ in cover: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 7.77

Guard/Eldar/Nids (6+ is same as 5+ versus bolters)
Vs. T3 5+: No act: 26.66 re-rolling hits: 35.5 kills, divine guidance: 26.66 kills
Vs. T3 5+ in cover: No act: 13.33 re-rolling hits: 17.77 kills, divine guidance: 13.33 kills

Orks:
Vs. T4 6+: No Act: 20 kills re-rolling hits: 26.75 kills, divine guidance: 20 kills
Vs. T4 6+ in cover: No Act: 10 kills re-rolling hits: 13.37 kills, divine guidance: 10 kills


- Against Terminators and Marines in the open, sure, Divine Guidance is better. But against anything except marines, it got you no benefit at all. Re-rolling your hits will get you more results against everything - not one case above yields equal or less than not using an act, not true for divine guidance. Furthermore, re-rolling hits is more valuable against most xenos races, which should be of interest to fluff/campaign players. Even shooting Marines in cover, re-rolls to hits are more valuable than divine guidance.

This picture is not as bleak as you're painting it.

Furthermore, examine the point costs.

At the current 11ppm, 60 sisters is 660 points. That yields (all not in cover):
99 points/kill versus terminators
59 points/kill versus marines
33 points/kill versus orks
25 points/kill versus Guard (eldar/nids)

New values, based on 11/10/9/8 point sisters:
Terminators: 149/135/122/108
Marines: 74/68/60/54
Orks: 24/22/19/17
Guard: 19/17/15/13

So, if a sister gets priced at 9ppm, she's actually just as efficient against marines with the new act as she was with the old one, while being more efficient versus all the xenos races. What's more, if they're priced at 8ppm, then the new sister actually has more teeth, point-for-point, than the old one.

Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

Redbeard wrote:Given 60 bolter shots at some typical targets, with bold representing the better option: snip
Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

Wow. I felt that some of this was true by my gut, but was too lazy to do the math.

That kind of brings it home.

Redbeard wrote:Against Terminators and Marines in the open, sure, Divine Guidance is better. But against anything except marines, it got you no benefit at all. Re-rolling your hits will get you more results against everything - not one case above yields equal or less than not using an act, not true for divine guidance. Furthermore, re-rolling hits is more valuable against most xenos races, which should be of interest to fluff/campaign players. Even shooting Marines in cover, re-rolls to hits are more valuable than divine guidance.

Ultimately, it depends how often you find yourself playing against MEQs. I don't think it'd be an exaggeration to say the odds of playing against CSM/SM/BA/GK/SW are higher than the odds of playing against Nids, Orcs or Eldar. Granted, game balance decisions should not be made on the basis of having an uneven playing field in terms of potential opponents - but in an ideal world GW would design every army to be equally competitive and every army would enjoy normalised distribution of players.

Redbeard wrote:Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

An oversimplification and, as someone new to the forum, something of a worrisome one. If we discuss hypotheticals on Dakka are we condemned to be considered irrational and fear-ridden? All discussion is built upon a level of interpretation and extrapolation - otherwise the discussion would serve no purpose, and we'd already know the answer :S

Redbeard wrote:
Given 60 bolter shots at some typical targets, with bold representing the better option:
...
Marines:
Vs. T4 3+: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 11.11 kills
Vs. T4 3+ in cover: No act: 6.66 re-rolling hits: 8.88 kills, divine guidance: 7.77

The new BSS faith just rerolls 1s, not all misses. Thus, some of your calculations are I think incorrect. With re-rolling just 1s, the result is 7.66 kills for marines (that is the same as old DG in cover, much worse when not in cover). The other calculations are off in a similar way.

Mythal wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Cost is everything. With it being unknown, all other discussion about the viability of this army is based on irrational fear, not logic or fact.

An oversimplification and, as someone new to the forum, something of a worrisome one. If we discuss hypotheticals on Dakka are we condemned to be considered irrational and fear-ridden? All discussion is built upon a level of interpretation and extrapolation - otherwise the discussion would serve no purpose, and we'd already know the answer :S

I don't think you'll find that hypotheticals are what he is talking about. He is talking about the 10 pages of people complaining because their army is irrevocably harmed based on one half of a codex that they have seen. Speculation is one thing; wailing and gnashing of teeth without keeping it in perspective is another.

Speculation about what is coming and how it may affect the army is right in line, however.

Seen several people saying Battle sisters getting re-rolls to hit. Which isnt entirely true. The act of Faith states re-rolls to hit "of a 1"..... making it even worse.

S'jet wrote:Seen several people saying Battle sisters getting re-rolls to hit. Which isnt entirely true. The act of Faith states re-rolls to hit "of a 1"..... making it even worse.

You got ninja'd by Randy.

Units with base S3 T3 and I3 will NOT EVER stand up in combat, faith or not. THEY WILL LOSE.

To think otherwise is silly.

At least Guard and Tau are able to deal immense damage at extreme ranges...that's how they fight.

Sisters are close range shooters with the exception of Exorcists and HB retributers (which share the same FOC slot).

This is a recipe for disaster.

Make cheaper models and all that means is that more models will die in close combat. Without rending bullets, regular battle sisters have lost their teeth. What does normal bolter fire do to models with armour AND FNP?....BESIDES nothing?

No real psychic defense on the radar? What?

Immo total nerf? No fire points? No 12" move and flame?

I don't need to wait and see point costs and wargear b4 I realise that this codex will be a total train wreck. Any point cost reductions will be offset by all the wargear you'll have to purchase just to make these girls fight.

Close range shooters that get crushed...yes, CRUSHED in hth....EVERYTIME! Canonesses at T3 with no 2-3++ save will die in combat like the little girls they now are. The great invuln was what made them work.

Everything here is horribly nerfed, and you've got close range fighters with statlines that are totally inferior to anything else in the game designed to fight at this range. Fearless or not, stubborn or not, power armour or not...the only thing this army will do is die to players of equal skill level playing any other dex worth it's competetive salt.

Deadshane1 wrote:Units with base S3 T3 and I3 will NOT EVER stand up in combat, faith or not. THEY WILL LOSE.

To think otherwise is silly.

At least Guard and Tau are able to deal immense damage at extreme ranges...that's how they fight.

Sisters are close range shooters with the exception of Exorcists and HB retributers (which share the same FOC slot).

This is a recipe for disaster.

Make cheaper models and all that means is that more models will die in close combat. Without rending bullets, regular battle sisters have lost their teeth. What does normal bolter fire do to models with armour AND FNP?....BESIDES nothing?

No real psychic defense on the radar? What?

Immo total nerf? No fire points? No 12" move and flame?

I don't need to wait and see point costs and wargear b4 I realise that this codex will be a total train wreck. Any point cost reductions will be offset by all the wargear you'll have to purchase just to make these girls fight.

Close range shooters that get crushed...yes, CRUSHED in hth....EVERYTIME! Canonesses at T3 with no 2-3++ save will die in combat like the little girls they now are. The great invuln was what made them work.

Everything here is horribly nerfed, and you've got close range fighters with statlines that are totally inferior to anything else in the game designed to fight at this range. Fearless or not, stubborn or not, power armour or not...the only thing this army will do is die to players of equal skill level playing any other dex worth it's competetive salt.

Signed

Deadshane1 wrote:Units with base S3 T3 and I3 will NOT EVER stand up in combat, faith or not. THEY WILL LOSE.
To think otherwise is silly.

Guard blobs say hi.

No real psychic defense on the radar? What?

Wargear section isn't published. Where was the psychic defense in the last codex again?

Immo total nerf? No fire points? No 12" move and flame?

Unsure of points cost, can't really call it a nerf until you know the rest. The no move and flame thing is definitely a bummer.

Close range shooters that get crushed...yes, CRUSHED in hth....EVERYTIME! Canonesses at T3 with no 2-3++ save will die in combat like the little girls they now are. The great invuln was what made them work.

Again, you don't know what the canonesses can and can't get. They may be able to get Storm Shields for all you know. You don't know if there are SoF enhancing upgrades for squads, etc. It is too early to say definitively what will and won't happen.

Everything here is horribly nerfed, and you've got close range fighters with statlines that are totally inferior to anything else in the game designed to fight at this range. Fearless or not, stubborn or not, power armour or not...the only thing this army will do is die to players of equal skill level playing any other dex worth it's competetive salt.

I think I'll wait until we actually see the codex before declaring something that bold. It isn't the first time we have heard cries of doom over a codex in either direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't get me wrong guys. You might be right. Maybe the second half will come out and the points costs went up and there are no pieces of wargear worth a damn in the whole book.

If that happens, I'll be right there with you.

Until then though...

pretre wrote:I don't think you'll find that hypotheticals are what he is talking about. He is talking about the 10 pages of people complaining because their army is irrevocably harmed based on one half of a codex that they have seen. Speculation is one thing; wailing and gnashing of teeth without keeping it in perspective is another.

Speculation about what is coming and how it may affect the army is right in line, however.

Well, that's good to know. I can't say I'm surprised about the largely negative reaction - the Faith system was the only thing that kept a pure-Sororitas force viable in C:WH, and now it looks like we'll need to use all of the Codex to be viable, not just Sisters of Battle units, due to the fact that Faith is now used to make specialist units slightly better, rather than making generalist units serve a specialist role very briefly. I honestly doubt Wargear will bring back that 'generalist' feel to the Sisters' units - instead, as I've said, I think it's a new design goal to make sure Sisters players make full use of the models available to them (and, from a business perspective, thus buy more models that they might have shunned in 3rd Edition).

It makes sense, in a way, since you wouldn't expect Space Marine players to shun half of their Codex and still expect it to be as competitive as the whole - but at the same time, Codex: Ecclesiarchy would have been a better moniker.

S'jet wrote:Seen several people saying Battle sisters getting re-rolls to hit. Which isnt entirely true. The act of Faith states re-rolls to hit "of a 1"..... making it even worse.

Indeed, it's the Dominions power which allows rerolls of any miss - the Battle Sister squads only reroll 1s.

I think it's now better to view Acts of Faith as simply Imperial Guard orders now. The Faith system in a vacuum has most definitely been "nerfed" inasmuch as it no longer serves the purpose it did, and the available powers are largely less powerful than those they are replacing. But I'm thinking Cruddace and Ward wanted to essentially 'break Sisters players out of their shell' - they want us to give up on the idea of a purely Sisters of Battle army ever being as competitive as one of their headline armies, and force us to include Ecclesiarchy units (probably because a Book Codex would need another 10 or so units to make it worth the printing, and they can't think of another 10 variants of Sororitas). Think of it as punitive taxation on petrol - something designed to compel a change in behaviour before behaviour is forceably changed for you by external factors.

Mythal wrote:Ultimately, it depends how often you find yourself playing against MEQs.

I went to a tourney last weekend. There were 3 people not running meq armies. All three of them are members of my play group. I don't care about being better against Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, and all of that other stuff. Bolters and Flamers alone deal enough damage to deal with them. While balance shouldn't be based on how many people play a certain army, it's worth considering that anything that isn't good against marines isn't good against 90% of the people you play that matter. Just sayin'.

Mythal wrote:Well, that's good to know. I can't say I'm surprised about the largely negative reaction - the Faith system was the only thing that kept a pure-Sororitas force viable in C:WH,

Immo spam was pure-SOB and didn't use faith.

and now it looks like we'll need to use all of the Codex to be viable, not just Sisters of Battle units, due to the fact that Faith is now used to make specialist units slightly better, rather than making generalist units serve a specialist role very briefly.

Hmm. I like how you put this. This may indeed be the way they are going.

I think it's now better to view Acts of Faith as simply Imperial Guard orders now. The Faith system in a vacuum has most definitely been "nerfed" inasmuch as it no longer serves the purpose it did, and the available powers are largely less powerful than those they are replacing.

I am thinking that you were right above. It is not so much a nerf as a complete redesign. Only points costs will tell us if it is truly a nerf or not.

But I'm thinking Cruddace and Ward wanted to essentially 'break Sisters players out of their shell' - they want us to give up on the idea of a purely Sisters of Battle army ever being as competitive as one of their headline armies, and force us to include Ecclesiarchy units (probably because a Book Codex would need another 10 or so units to make it worth the printing, and they can't think of another 10 variants of Sororitas). Think of it as punitive taxation on petrol - something designed to compel a change in behaviour before behaviour is forceably changed for you by external factors.

Wow. I was with you until this. lol

Deadshane1 wrote:Sisters are close range shooters

Lessee... close-range shooters that suck at melee... close-range shooters that suck at melee...

Why does that sound so familiar...?

I've got it!

The new Sisters 'dex is in reality a secret test of ideas to figure out how to make Eldar Guardians actually useful!


/duck

Guard blobs say hi.

Guard are designed to fight at range...sisters are not....as I stated

Wargear section isn't published. Where was the psychic defense in the last codex again?

They're called inquisitors. Oh, and sheild of faith on a 5+.

Unsure of points cost, can't really call it a nerf until you know the rest.

Actually, you can. When you consider that sisters are close range shooters, if they have to get out of their ride to shoot...they're dead.

Again, you don't know what the canonesses can and can't get. They may be able to get Storm Shields for all you know. You don't know if there are SoF enhancing upgrades for squads, etc. It is too early to say definitively what will and won't happen.

Again, as I said, all you have to do is look at their stats. You'll have to pump her up so much with wargear any point cost cheapness will be nullified.

I think I'll wait until we actually see the codex before declaring something that bold. It isn't the first time we have heard cries of doom over a codex in either direction.

It's not really that bold of a statement. Look at the weapon loadouts that we're going to have. We still have close range fighters here. Combine that with the base statline that sisters have and you've got troops that need to get close, cannot shoot out of their transports (if you take immo's) and don't have the basic statlines to survive out in the open against any army in the game.

Cheap models will mean that ton's will die/get rundown....
...and we're seeing troops that will have to be MEGABUFFED by tons of wargear in every squad to make them fight the way they're equipped to.

....I mean, what more do you need to see?

Redbeard wrote:I haven't seen that yet. But, I'm not too worried about it, because without seeing point costs, and, yes, the wargear, it's not that important as a stand-alone item.

Okay, so how is fielding 60 bolters not more punching power than fielding 50? Maybe not more in one unit, but more as an army. How is fielding six units with flamer/melta not more punching power than five? Point costs matter. If you can't see that, you're not worth having a discussion about a point-based game with.

No, it isn't. Because you cannot draw a rational conclusion about something based on impartial information. Any conclusion you draw about the viability of this codex based on reading half of it is irrational.

1. ... So you're content to know jack-all about the topic at hand while discussing it. Fantastic.

2. You can try to twist my words all you want, but you know what I meant. 10 sisters w/ the trimmings now, will be still weaker than 10 sisters w/ the trimmings before. Being cheaper doesn't somehow make them stronger. It just means there's more weaker elements. You can drop grots from 3 points to 2, so I can suddenly field 30% more grots, but they'll still just be grots. Cheaper cost doesn't suddenly make a bolter able to hurt a Rhino's front armor. More S3 attacks doesn't suddenly pull down more MEQs than having Divine Guidance on CC attacks. Cheaper, does not equal better. Cheaper simply equals more.

3. I'm guessing you don't know how science works then?

streamdragon wrote:
3. I'm guessing you don't know how science works then?

Well...scientists have said some pretty stupid gak over the years...lol.

pretre wrote:Immo spam was pure-SOB and didn't use faith.

Immo spam is going to be even more common if Laud Hailers really are the new BoSL.

pretre wrote:

I think it's now better to view Acts of Faith as simply Imperial Guard orders now. The Faith system in a vacuum has most definitely been "nerfed" inasmuch as it no longer serves the purpose it did, and the available powers are largely less powerful than those they are replacing.

I am thinking that you were right above. It is not so much a nerf as a complete redesign. Only points costs will tell us if it is truly a nerf or not.

Well, not necessarily a nerf to the models - as you say, that's down to point cost. I meant that the system itself was not as powerful - which it isn't. Note, I'm not judging whether that's a good or bad thing, or whether it will make the army unplayable - I'm only saying that the Faith system is not as powerful as once it was, mainly due to the fact that powers are now squad-specific (as I said, specialist and not generalist) rather than universal.

pretre wrote:

and now it looks like we'll need to use all of the Codex to be viable, not just Sisters of Battle units, due to the fact that Faith is now used to make specialist units slightly better, rather than making generalist units serve a specialist role very briefly.

Hmm. I like how you put this. This may indeed be the way they are going.

But I'm thinking Cruddace and Ward wanted to essentially 'break Sisters players out of their shell' - they want us to give up on the idea of a purely Sisters of Battle army ever being as competitive as one of their headline armies, and force us to include Ecclesiarchy units (probably because a Book Codex would need another 10 or so units to make it worth the printing, and they can't think of another 10 variants of Sororitas). Think of it as punitive taxation on petrol - something designed to compel a change in behaviour before behaviour is forceably changed for you by external factors.

Wow. I was with you until this. lol

Both quotes are the same thing, worded a different way. I honestly believe that the idea is to make "Sisters" players realise we have to use all of our Codex. Remember, Codex: Witch Hunters vaunted the Faith system as a method of running nothing but SoB miniatures. It was even advocated in the summing up. But I think they've come to the realisation that continuing that design philosophy means two things: duplicating roles, and thus models, within a Codex (making Sisters squads that are specifically designed to fill in a niche that the Codex fills with another Ecclesiarchy unit they already have models for), and trying to force square pegs into round holes (creating Sisters squads that they can't justify the existance of, just to plug a balance gap that could easily be plugged by an Ecclesiarchy unit they have fluff justification for).

To put it another way, if you can field solid CC troops from your Ecclesiarchal Conclaves, or passable CC troops by spamming Acts of Faith on your Celestians, at a comparable points cost, which is the wiser decision? Both are in your Codex, after all, and the only difference aside from the stats is the 'look and feel' of the models. From the game-balance perspective, it'd be like expecting the designers to come up with a special rule system that allowed you to field nothing but Scout Marines, Scout Bikers, and Land Speeder Storms, because you didn't like the look of traditional marines, without loss of army capability.

I'm not judging it - merely hypothesising that this is something that's driving the new Codex - making Sisters collectors realise that a truly balanced Codex: Sisters of Battle army won't be able to keep the 'look' of the force on the top half of Page 63 of C:WH.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Guard blobs say hi.

Guard are designed to fight at range...sisters are not....as I stated

Power blobs do fine in CC. You were saying I3/T3/S3 can't last in combat. I gave a counter point.

They're called inquisitors. Oh, and sheild of faith on a 5+.

The inquisitor role is largely moving to ecclesiarchy. For all we know there will be a Psychic Pope Hat that does the same thing.

Actually, you can. When you consider that sisters are close range shooters, if they have to get out of their ride to shoot...they're dead.

Oh, better tell BA that those minimum size squads with Meltas inside of Razorbacks aren't competitive.

Again, as I said, all you have to do is look at their stats. You'll have to pump her up so much with wargear any point cost cheapness will be nullified.

No, you'd have to give her an eviscerator and an invulnerable save and she'd largely be back where she was, but this time with different buffs depending on which squad she was with at the time. Oh, and she got a better WS, didn't she?

It's not really that bold of a statement. Look at the weapon loadouts that we're going to have. We still have close range fighters here. Combine that with the base statline that sisters have and you've got troops that need to get close, cannot shoot out of their transports (if you take immo's) and don't have the basic statlines to survive out in the open against any army in the game.
Cheap models will mean that ton's will die/get rundown....
...and we're seeing troops that will have to be MEGABUFFED by tons of wargear in every squad to make them fight the way they're equipped to.

If you can field 15 Immolators with 3 Meltaguns in each one at 1750 to 2000 points (this is exaggeration, before someone gets uppity), it won't matter how bad they are at H2H or how bad an idea it is to get out of a vehicle. And that's just one example of how this could work out.

....I mean, what more do you need to see?

Points costs. Wargear. The actual entries that armies get in the back of the codex describing weapons loadouts, upgrades, transport options, etc.


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Mythal wrote:I'm not judging it - merely hypothesising that this is something that's driving the new Codex - making Sisters collectors realise that a truly balanced Codex: Sisters of Battle army won't be able to keep the 'look' of the force on the top half of Page 63 of C:WH.

It is an interesting idea. I'll give you that.

- Against Terminators and Marines in the open, sure, Divine Guidance is better. But against anything except marines, it got you no benefit at all.

*looks at the number of MEQ armies on the tables every day*

I can deal with that. Given that flamer and heavy flamers are excellent against hordes, Sistesr never really needed THAT much help against hordes anyway! It's mostly been against MEQ hat Sisters have needed help.

Really, what Sisters player is going to have a problem fighting Orks or Tyranids? And the only reason we have problems with Guard is because our anti-tank ability sucks-- and this codex isn't really going to change that.

streamdragon wrote: 10 sisters w/ the trimmings now, will be still weaker than 10 sisters w/ the trimmings before. Being cheaper doesn't somehow make them stronger. It just means there's more weaker elements. You can drop grots from 3 points to 2, so I can suddenly field 30% more grots, but they'll still just be grots. Cheaper cost doesn't suddenly make a bolter able to hurt a Rhino's front armor. More S3 attacks doesn't suddenly pull down more MEQs than having Divine Guidance on CC attacks. Cheaper, does not equal better. Cheaper simply equals more.

So, streamdragon, if one always takes the stronger and not the cheaper version... Why don't people take full Tac Squads, full Assault Squads, etc?Why do people min/max for multiple razorbacks, etc? Quantity is a quality of its own at times.

Right now, 'pure sob' armies fill their troops with 10 girl squads in rhinos 'w/ the trimmings'. That's generally about 200 points or so. If you could get an immo, 2 meltas, 5 girls for 130, your lack of divine guidance is not going to be an issue. I'm not saying that is what is going to happen, but it could. Either way, cost will definitely effect the codexes efficacy.